HL Deb 09 March 1860 vol 157 cc196-216
THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBY,

in rising to call attention to the conduct of the Provisional Government of Tuscany, and to move for papers connected with the subject, said he had two motives for reverting to a subject which, perhaps, he ought to apologize to their Lordships for having brought so frequently before them. The first was, that if the Piedmontese officials continued to act with the same precipitation which they seemed now inclined to display, if he were to delay even for a few days, the event, to which he wished to call attention, would become un fait accompli; and the second was that, until he read the Correspondence which the Government had recently presented to Parliament, he had no idea how soon they had thrown off the mask of neutrality, and how soon they had assumed the cha- racter of partizans. He was far from wishing, by the form which he had given to his Motion, to have it supposed that he was inclined either to encourage or to extend that system of interference in the internal affairs of foreign nations for which the career of the noble Viscount at the head of the Government had been so long remarkable, whether as departmental chief or as the superintending mind. In this case, however, he held that Her Majesty's Government must be responsible for the position which they bad taken, and that the anomalous Governments of Central Italy could only be treated as their creations. We all knew the great satisfaction with which the whole civilized world bailed the somewhat sudden conclusion of the late disastrous war. There was hardly a man who did not feel that a great weight was removed from his mind, as no one knew how far that war might extend. But it now appeared that to the general satisfaction there was an exception; for within a week after the noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Office announced to the House of Commons the conclusion of peace they found him in communication with the Chargéd' "Affaires at Florence, recommending those in power to act in opposition to the provisions of the treaty by which the belligerent Powers had bound themselves. The first overt act was on theI9th of July; but after the experience of last night he did not know whether before peace was concluded Lord John Russell had not in private letters to Mr. Corbett inculcated the means to thwart the provisions of the treaty. From the experience they bad had, particularly in reference to Savoy, he was rather afraid that the noble Lord had adopted a course which, when chief of his present leader, he was the first to deprecate. He could not pretend to decide that it was the first communication, but on the 19th of July Lord John Russell wrote to Mr. Corbett, that it was much to be desired that a Legislative Assembly should be convoked in Tuscany in order to decide upon its future. That, he contended, was decidedly a measure in direct opposition to the conditions of the treaty of peace, and entailed upon Her Majesty's Government the responsibility of what had since occurred. It was in his opinion, the first step which led the mind of the Emperor of the French to the annexation of Savoy. The hurry was so great that the directions given by the noble Lord were acted upon immediately afterwards by the Provisional Government of Florence during the Presidency of Signor Boncompagni. Signor Boncompagni was Commissary General to the King of Sardinia, and therefore had no more right to issue orders for an election in Tuscany than to issue Speaker's writs for the election of Members of the House of Commons. From the very first, therefore, the noble Lord, by his precipitate conduct, had placed the stamp of illegality upon all the proceedings. On the 18th July the noble Lord must have had some suspicion of the kind of influence that was going on there, for upon that day he desired Mr. Corbett to warn the Provisional Government against making themselves a party to anything unjust, to any violent and arbitrary proceedings inconsistent with the freedom of election. Mr. Corbett's answer was not very consolatory. On the 6th August he said that threats had been used not only against the Grand Ducal party, but also against the Republicans themselves. This was the answer of Marchese Ridolfi, who mentioned the name of a leading Republican the Government had imprisoned. This indiscriminate oppression of all who are not of the Piedmontese party, it was thought must be satisfactory to the English Government. It was unnecessary to weary their Lordships with the details of the electoral law of 1848. But, however much the Tuscans might have regretted the suppression of constitutional government, he had never heard a single Tuscan deny that the electoral law of 1848 was in its very nature most partial. It was established during an incipient revolution; and it was intended to give nearly all power to the towns, to public employés, to professors of the University, and to the small shopkeepers. On this point he must say that if there were any country in which the rural population ought to have great weight Tuscany was that country; for in Tuscany the rural population was the most enlightened and the most independent part of the community: yet these were the people whom a stranger, Signor Boncompagni, excluded from a voice in the elections. It was unnecessary to refer to the intimidation, because the system founded on the electoral law of 1848 was now interrupted; but there was an important fact which showed the inaccuracy of the information which was communicated to Her Majesty's Government by their agent. On the 10th of August Mr. Corbett wrote:— A very large majority of these entitled to vote have taken part in the elections, probably as many as three-fourths. But Signor Galleotti, the Secretary to the National Assembly at Florence, showed in a pamphlet, written in defence of the system, that only about half the constituency voted. The number of voters on the list is 63,000, these who voted over 35,000—by what process of arithmetic Mr. Corbett makes this amount to three-fourths, it is difficult to say, but his estimate is given to Parliament in these papers. The original constitution of the electoral body, who were to have the privilege of voting on the question which was to decide the future of the country, was intended to apply to 1.25th of the population; but the fact was that only one in fifty registered their votes. Could any one say that that was a satisfactory mode of taking a vote upon which depended the constitution of the State and the future of the people? On October the 24th, Mr. Corbett expressed himself very curiously as to the feelings of the country. The greater part," he wrote, "of the nobility and upper classes, and all the intelligence of the country, are opposed to the restoration of the Grand Ducal Government. Now, from his own recollection, he could mention the names of numbers of the first families in Florence whose opinions were the very reverse of these stated by Mr. Corbett. As to the intelligence of the country, how could Mr. Corbett constitute himself a judge of that? He had, he understood, few acquaintances beyond his own limited private circle; and, at any rate, he had not that knowledge and experience of the country which would justify a man in making such a very wholesale assertion. In declaring that all the intelligence of the country was opposed to the Government, Mr. Corbett must have formed a very mean estimate of the Foreign Minister, with whom he was daily transacting business, and who had stated to Mr. Scarlett that he himself and a great majority of the Tuscans desired nothing so much as the return of the Grand Duke. On a former occasion he had drawn the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the circumstance of Mr. Corbett having appeared at one of the receptions of Signor Boncompagni, and had then been assured by a member of the Government, on the authority of a private letter, that Mr. Corbett had attended no official reception, but had only accepted a personal invitation to a private ball given by his intimate friend, Signor Boncom- pagni. He found, however, that in an official account of the reception which had appeared in the official gazette Il Monitore Toscano, it was stated to have been of an official character, and Mr. Corbett's presence at it was duly recorded, as that of Her Britannic Majesty's Charge d'Affaires. It was, in point of fact, precisely of the same character as the State Reception on New Year's Day always was—and as he himself had attended last year at the Palazzo Pitti. Upon seeing that announcement Mr. Corbett ought at once to have sent an intimation to the official gazette stating that he had attended the reception only in his private capacity. He ought not to have the credit in Florence of supporting the revolutionary Government officially and give it at home the character of a private civility. Letters were not only stopped and examined by the Tuscan Government, but suppressed altogether. With the exception of an anonymous letter received that morning, it was three months since he had received a single letter by the ordinary post from Tuscany, although previously he used to receive frequent communications. He had been informed that imprisonments and domiciliary visits had greatly increased since the English propositions had arrived at Florence. No less than 113 persons, nobles, priests, and others, had been thrown into solitary confinement in Florence alone without any specific charge having been made against them. An English lady, of a family well known to their Lordships, and married to an Italian gentleman of great respectability, had written to him to state that her now blind and infirm husband had been torn from her and imprisoned without any charge having been preferred against him. This lady, once Miss Thornton, was the daughter and sister of two distinguished diplomatists, her brother being now, he believed, Minister to the Argentine Confederation. He would do her the justice to allow her to state her case in her own words:— Florence, Feb. 15, 1860. I cannot refrain from writing a few lines to tell you that my poor husband has himself fallen a victim to the spirit of persecution at present so rife in Tuscany. He has been in prison since the 6th ult. Almost all the Guardie Nobile bad been imprisoned before himself, and I really believe that it was because he had interested himself very much (as it was his duty to do) for them, and perhaps expressed himself too freely on the injustice of their imprisonment, and still more for their being kept in prison without the slightest appearance of a trial, or even being told why they were arrested. I have heard of no trial, in fact I know that no trial has taken place, for now more than five weeks that some of them have been in prison. You may imagine that in Tassinari's interest I have examined into their case by every means in my power, and I know that the public tribunals will have nothing to do with their, there being no cause to proceed, consequently there will be a trial by vi² economica, which is just as much as to say that they will be condemned as others have been before them without cause. Your Lordship is well aware of the state of poor Tassinari's sight, and consequently how infinitely more painful, as well as injurious to him, is solitary confinement, where books and writing, allowed to others, to him are useless. Tassinari does not seek to avoid a trial; on the contrary, he demands it, and what he asks is but an act of humanity which ought not to be denied him. It is a sad state of things, and I cannot but be surprised that in England people should talk of the possibility of another election with so many in prison, so many exiled, and so many, many more in voluntary exile The following observation made by an Ultra Liberal the day Tassinari was arrested you will allow to be characteristic. Could I but know two hours before that I was to be arrested on an accusation of stealing the Campanile del Duomo, I would leave the country instantly in the present state of things,' &c. M. A. TASSINARI. And this was the working of the model Government of Tuscany, which had been praised by Lord John Russell as the perfection of moderation and wisdom! If anything appeared in the English papers displeasing to the Government, its publication was suppressed. If the doctrine of the rights of man was to be raised in Tuscany, ought they to proceed by making a privileged class? How was it possible in such a case to ascertain what was the real voice of the people? What the people of Tuscany wanted was, to have a fair opportunity of expressing their real sentiments; and he asked whether it was consistent with the free exercise of the suffrage that the Tuscan army should not be in their own country to vote? and that the whole should be conducted by employés who had taken the oath of allegiance to one of the candidates. He thought that commissioners ought to be appointed by the great Powers to see that the election took place in all fairness; and he had no doubt that if the question was fairly put before the people of Tuscany their free and unbiassed opinion would be against annexation to Sardinia. In conclusion, the noble Marquess having stated that as these new elections had been caused by the direct interference of the noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Office, he concluded that he must have accompanied his recommendation by some instructions to the Chargé d'Affaires as to the necessity of allowing perfect freedom of opinion, as the experience of last year had sufficiently shown that unless enforced from without the present Tuscan Government had no great respect for the free exercise of the elective franchise. He concluded by moving— That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for, Copy of any Instructions addressed by the Secretary of State to Her Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires, at Florence, directing him to impress upon the Provisional Government the Duty of abstaining from any arbitrary Acts calculated to destroy all Freedom of Action in connection with those fresh Elections which Her Majesty's Government had thought proper to recommend.

LORD WODEHOUSE

said, with regard to the papers moved fur by the noble Marques the answer he had to give would, he hoped, be satisfactory. It was simply that the papers did not exist, and therefore could not be laid on the table. Before venturing to answer some of the remarks made by the noble Marquess the House would, perhaps, allow him to say that it was rather hard that the Government should be compelled to go into minute details regarding the conduct of the Government of another country, with which he was perfectly ready to admit they had considerable sympathy, but in the affairs of which the policy of non-interference (which notwithstanding what had fallen from the noble Marquess, they had consistently pursued) did not permit them in any way to interpose. One thing was remarkable throughout the speech of the noble Marquess. He uniformly assumed that every person unfavourable to his views was inaccurate and partial; and that every one who agreed in opinion with him was thoroughly trustworthy and impartial. The noble Marquess remarked on the absence of instructions with reference to the oppressive measures said to have been exercised by the Tuscan Government before the elections, and charged Mr. Corbett with having acted with excessive partiality. He (Lord Wodehouse) thought that any one who read the published correspondence could not but be of opinion that Mr. Corbett had shown great impartiality, because the despatches contained proof that he had repeatedly pointed out the errors into which the Tuscan Government had fallen. When his noble Friend Lord John Russell wrote to Mr. Corbett to say certain measures were unjust and illiberal, Mr. Corbett lost no time in executing his instructions:— On receipt of your Lordship's despatch of the 28th ult." (Mr. Corbett wrote on the 6th of August last) 'I took an opportunity to express privately to Marchese Ridolfi your Lordship's opinion, that to repress a free declaration of opinion as to the future Government of this country was unjust and illiberal. His Excellency said, that it had been found necessary to warn certain persons that any attempt to disturb the public peace would be punished; but that these threats had been made use of not only to persons belonging to the Grand Ducal Party, but also to persons of Republican opinions, who had shown a I disposition to create disturbance, and that one of the latter, named Sterbini, had been imprisoned. I urged upon his Excellency the necessity of allowing the freest expression of opinion compatible with the maintenance of public order, if the Government desired to render the opinion to be expressed by the new Assembly respected abroad. The noble Marquess had found great fault with the Government for not having expressed a more decided opinion; but he (Lord Wodehouse) thought Mr. Corbett's expression of opinion decided and distinct enough. The Tuscan Assembly was convoked; and the noble Marquess proceeded to say that Mr. Corbett had given a most inaccurate account of the way in which the votes were taken, and the numbers of those votes. On that part of the case he (Lord Wodehouse) was unable to say more than that he believed Mr. Corbett to be an accurate and trustworthy person. He was certain that Mr. Corbett transmitted to the Government the best information he could procure; it happened, besides, to coincide with all the rest of the information that had been received from other quarters. Of the constitution of the Tuscan Assembly, on which the noble Marquess had remarked, their Lordships could form a judgment for themselves. Their Lordships attended to the course of public affairs, and they must have seen that some of the most distinguished persons—men who had taken a prominent part in the affairs of Tuscany I had been elected to seats in the Assembly. Mr. Corbett distinctly stated that the Assembly was composed of persons of rank, station, fortune, and intelligence in the country. He (Lord Wodehouse) could not help saying that the noble Marquess, in speaking of Mr. Corbett as he had done, had been wanting in generosity. The noble Marquess knew Mr. Corbett, for Mr. Corbett had served under the noble Marquess for some time. He (Lord Wodehouse) did not know him at all; but he must say that, as far as be had been able to judge from what he had heard of Mr. Corbett, he thought be bad, under very difficult and peculiar circumstances, discharged his duty efficiently. The noble Marquess had at- tempted to fix on Her Majesty's Government the responsibility of the fresh elections which were about to take place. But he thought the noble Marquess had altogether misunderstood the true position which Her Majesty's Government had assumed in this matter. Her Majesty's Government, throughout the correspondence had distinctly laid down that they would not interfere in the internal concerns of Italy, and that they would endeavour to induce the other Powers to take the same course. He maintained that those who had read the Correspondence would see that the Government had consistently abstained from such interference. It was said Her Majesty's Government were in favour of the policy of annexation. Why were they in favour of it? Simply because annexation had been the expressed wish of the Italian people. His noble Friend Lord John Russell, in a conversation which was recorded in the blue-book, had even expressed an opinion that it might be desirable that the Grand Duke should be recalled under proper guarantees; Her Majesty's Government had never desired to see the Grand Ducal authority overthrown, connected as it was with many historical associations; but being overthrown, they had to consider how a secure Government could be established in its place, and Her Majesty's Government were so far from having being unwilling to countenance any policy but that of annexation, that amongst other combinations his noble Friend suggested that there might be a Kingdom of Central Italy; but he always laid down the principle that the feelings and wishes of the Italian people should be respected; and as the French Government proclaimed in Italy that they would not interfere by force of arms with the wishes of the Italian people, these wishes having been clearly ascertained it was very natural that Her Majesty's Government should recommend elections as the best means of ascertaining what those wishes were. As regarded the new elections, the recommendation for a new election arose out of the general proposal of Her Majesty's Government with a view to the settlement of Italian affairs. Adverting to the application of the principle of universal suffrage, the noble Marquess said—addressing himself to Members of Her Majesty's Government—where was their respect for the rights of man?

THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBY

explained that what he had said was, that if Her Majesty's Government recommended that the destiny of Italy was to be decided by an appeal to popular vote, then every person ought to have an equal right to decide the question; but that there were obvious objections to universal suffrage, and therefore he could not acquiesce in the future fate of a country being decided by a popular vote which, applied to such a question, would evidently be most unjust if not universal.

LORD WODEHOUSE

said, he did not precisely see the difference if there were objections to universal suffrage, they certainly were not diminished by the fact that the votes were to be taken for the purpose of determining the destinies of a whole people. But however that might be, it was clearly our duty not to interfere. The noble Marquess had alluded to the non-transmission of his letters from Florence, and had made a complaint, founded on a letter from Madame Tassinari, which he had read to the House. He did not desire to regard too strictly the letter of a lady who necessarily wrote under some excitement caused by the imprisonment of her husband, and could scarcely be expected to be accurate in matters of political import; but he was surprised that charges against the Government should be based upon such a foundation. But before entering upon the matter of that complaint he would advert to the request of the noble Marquess that Mr. Corbett should be instructed by telegraph to take charge of a letter from Monsieur Tassinari to the noble Marquess. His noble Friend (Lord John Russell directed him (Lord Wodehouse) to inform the noble Marquess that he could not undertake to desire Mr. Corbett to take charge of his (the Marquess of Normanby's) correspondence, but a telegram was sent requesting the Tuscan Government to forward all letters addressed to the noble Marquess unopened. That was done, and the noble Marquess, it appeared, had received the anonymous letter which he had referred to. The grounds upon which the Secretary of State declined to accede to the noble Marquess's request were obvious. The privilege of rendering inviolate official correspondence for foreign countries depended upon that privilege never being abused. He did not wish to say anything harsh of the lady in question; but it must be borne in mind that she was connected with the party opposed to, and accused of plotting against, the existing Government of Tuscany. A parallel case to the application of the noble Marquess would have been, if the late Lord Dudley Stuart had applied that our Minister at St. Petersburg might be allowed to transmit to him letters from disaffected Poles, or from English ladies who were married to disaffected Poles, in order that he might make statements affecting the Russian Government. He was only surprised that the noble Marquess, with his experience, should have made such a request. The Government thought it was not incumbent on them to institute an inquiry into the complaints of a subject of Tuscany, but he had made some inquiries concerning this matter, and he would now state the result to the House. In the first place it was singular that, on the evening of the very day the lady wrote to the noble Marquess complaining that Mr. Corbett had paid no attention to her appeal, on the evening of that very day her husband was removed from prison, and placed in confinement in his own house, being ill and afflicted with blindness, at Mr. Corbett's request; and Mr. Corbett said the lady had never had the grace to thank him for his interference. That showed the animus which dictated these complaints. The gentleman in question was arrested on the 6th of February upon a charge of being concerned in a plot which the Tuscan authorities supposed to have some connection with the recent affair of the shells which had been thrown into the house of one of the Ministers. He was arrested in company with eleven other persons; and, so far from not being made acquainted with the charge against him, he was examined the next day, and was afterwards tried under a law established in the reign of the late Grand Duke. He would like to ask whether the noble Marquess during his stay in Florence had felt it his duty to make any remonstrance to the Grand Duke upon the cruelty of that law. The gentleman himself, however, did not seem to be discontented with his treatment; for after his removal to his own house, he wrote a letter to the chief of the police, thanking the government for the attention that had been shown to him, and the humane way in which he had been treated. The noble Marquess indulged in a spirit of exaggeration, and had spoken of hundreds of the thousands of persons being thrown into prison by the present government of Tuscany. Mr. Corbett had furnished an account of the number of persons who had been arrested; and it appeared that in October last there was a reactionary plot, on account of which Signor Andreozzi, and three or four others, were tried and sentenced to six months' imprisonment, with the option of commuting that penalty by an exile for twelve months. The next plot was one of the Mazzini faction; for it was the fate of the Tuscan government to have to deal with two extreme and opposite parties. Upon that occasion fourteen persons were arrested at Leghorn, and after trial were condemned to six months' imprisonment, while seventeen others were placed in surveillance. In February, twelve of the reactionary party, of whom Tassinari was one, were arrested. Considering the difficult position of the Tuscan Government struggling for existence almost in a time of revolution, he thought there was no example in history where a government placed in such difficulties, with the monarchical party on one side, and the extreme republican or anarchical party on the other, had shown greater firmness, moderation, and desire to avoid cruelty. So far from oppression, the Provisional Government, so far from meriting these continued harassing attacks, deserved general sympathy for its mild and impartial treatment of its opponents. The noble Marquess had referred to the supposed absence of Tuscan troops from that country; but the fact was that out of 21,000 men under arms, 10,000 were at present in Tuscany, and the remainder were placed in positions where their services were most required. This did not show that the Tuscan Government did not place confidence in the fidelity of the troops. The Tuscan Government had recently determined to raise 6,000 more men, and to mobilize 6,000 National Guards. So far from there being numerous bodies of foreign troops in Tuscany, Mr. Corbett very recently reported that the first battalion of the troops of the League had arrived in Florence, where it had been received with universal sympathy. Then as to the press regulations, it appeared to him that the Provisional Government deserved credit for having removed all the restrictions that formerly existed. That, at the moment the elections were about to take place, showed a right-minded respect for public opinion. The noble Marquess spoke of the influence exercised by Sardinia in Tuscany; but the recall of Signor Boncompagni at the moment when the elections were about to be held, showed a proper desire to avoid improper influence. The noble Marquess had upon a former occasion referred to Milan, and he (Lord Wodehouse) had received a letter from the municipality of Milan, declaring that some statements which he had made had caused great indignation; and it was remarkable that the statements of the noble Marquess always did excite the indignation of some one; so that it was natural to infer that they were not quite so accurate as he imagined them to be. This document was addressed to Sir James Hudson, and was to the following effect:— The municipal authorities (giunta municipale) of the city of Milan, recently empowered by the free vote of their fellow citizens, beg to present, through the kind medium of your Excellency, a rectification of the strange and quite unfounded assertions respecting this city which an hon. Member of the British Parliament, undoubtedly misled by false information, happened to allege at the sitting of the House of Lords of the 7th instant. The writers then quoted from the Parliamentary report of The Times of February 8th the remarks of the noble Marquess relative to the "alarming state" of Milan, and proceeded:— Such an unqualifiable misrepresentation of facts cannot be answered but by the most complete and the most formal denial. Far from being in the least alarming, as the noble Lord is pleased to represent it, never was the state of this city a more calm, thriving, and cheerful one than at present. Nay, the present state of this city forms, in the eyes of any impartial observer, the most striking contrast to the gloomy, distressed, and deeply agitated appearance it bore under the Austrian rule. Since this city was happily relieved from that detested domination in so difficult a period as must necessarily arise from a great political crisis, no increase at all has to be stated in the average number of crimes and common offences, the good spirit and vigilance of the people themselves, as well as the moral strength of a national Government, working as a substitute for the arbitrary measures in which the Austrian Government so profusely indulged, and from which a constitutional one makes it a duty to abstain; so that also as regards personal security the state of this country and city has nothing to envy in that of any civilized people in Europe, Let it be enough to state that during the last solemn entry of His Majesty the King on the 15th instant, while all the streets and public places swarmed with a joyful and bustling crowd, only a single complaint was brought into the police-offices in the whole of the day, and that, too, for an almost insignificant offence—a fact which no overflowing metropolis in Europe is perhaps in case to boast of for many years. As for the intercourse between civil inhabitants and military, not only is this a cordial and friendly one, but any testimony of the deepest and warmest sympathies that can be felt by an impressible people is bestowed upon soldiers and officers, whether Lombard or Piedmontese, or belonging to any other Italian provinces, as on the living symbol and palladium of the so long-sought-after national independence. Never can the comparison between the treatment of a national and that of an Austrian officer in Milan present itself to a healthy mind but as that between friend and foe. They then concluded by declaring that they attached too high a price to the esteem and friendship of the English nation not to take any step in their power in order to contradict false statements, which might eventually mislead public opinion in England respecting the real position of things in Lombardy. This was one specimen of the contradictions given to the statements of the noble Marquess. Another was supplied from Leghorn, and was contained in a letter addressed by the English merchants of that city to a well-known banker there. These gentlemen, referring to a letter read by the noble Marquess in this House on the 14th of February, and said to have been written by a Leghorn merchant" of the first consideration," declared their firm conviction that that letter was written neither by an English merchant of the first nor of any other consideration whatever, and they totally denied the allegations which it contained respecting the state of the country. Such were a few of the contradictions which poured in on every side to the statements of the noble Marquess; and most of their Lordships would have seen a certain correspondence between Dolfi, the baker of Florence, and the noble Lord, in which the latter, to use a familiar phrase, got as good as he gave. No such Correspondence existed as the noble Marquess had moved for, and the reason why no such advice had been given to the Tuscan Government was that there appeared to be no ground whatever for volunteering it. There was no reason to believe that the Tuscan Government had adopted measures calculated to prevent a free expression of opinion in that country. He thought that Her Majesty's Government were justified in expressing their opinion that a sufficient answer had been given to the statements of the noble Marquess. The statements to which the House had listened emanated from persons who took no broad views of the politics of Europe, who drew general conclusions from small and insufficient premisses, and who failed to see that the policy recommended by Her Majesty's Government sprung from the belief that you could only insure the peace and tranquillity of Italy by conferring on her a Government based upon the wishes of the people, and consolidated by the free expression of public opinion.

THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBY,

in explanation, said he had never desired that the Government should give him the right to send his letters through Mr. Corbett. He had refrained for some time from bringing under their Lordships' notice the cruel case which had been submitted to him, and all he had done was to request the noble Lord to allow the one letter which he expected, and which would have enabled him to lay the whole case fully before the House, to be transmitted through Mr. Corbett. He still thought it was neither courteous nor calculated to insure a fair and full consideration of the subject that that request should be refused. With respect to Milan, he would only say that the answer of the municipality, which had been read by the noble Lord, referred to the existing position of things in that city, whereas his statement referred to the state of Milan in the early part of January. Every word of that information was derived from The Times of January 7, in a letter written by the very same correspondent who afterwards cited the strange remonstrance sent to Sir James Hudson. With respect to the letter from five or six persons calling themselves Leghorn merchants, which the noble Lord had thought it his duty to communicate to the House, and giving their opinion as to his correspondent, of whose identity they could know nothing, he would be satisfied to leave the matter to be judged by any one more accurately acquainted with the Mercantile Society of Leghorn than the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State, and he could give confidentially to that noble Lord the name of his correspondent, which would at once show him to be a person of undoubted respectability.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE

thought that the statements of the noble Marquess had received a complete refutation. As the noble Marquess had not had letters from Italy for some time, he had perhaps not received one that an officer of high standing had written to him, strongly contradicting the serious attack which the noble Marquess had made upon him in his pamphlet. He submitted that if the noble Marquess had received that letter he was bound to give it the same publicity as he had given to the charge. He thought that the noble Marquess, as a friend of the re-actionary party, was excessively ungrateful to the Government of Florence; because if they had not taken the vigorous steps to maintain order which he now complained of, these persons for whose safety he was so anxious would be placed in a very insecure position. The noble Marquess must know that there were many desperate republican agents in the country, and that it required the utmost efforts of the respective Governments to secure practical liberty to the people by preserving tranquillity and good order. The noble Marquess had next complained of the murder of Count Anviti; but he did not see that the murder of Count Anviti had showed the Government of Parma the necessity of taking the stronger measures that he now criticised in order to prevent the repetition of such outrages? He thought that mankind owed a debt of gratitude to these men who had come forward in Italy in support of the liberties of their country. Their names would be immortalized in their own country, and they would be recorded in the history of Europe. He did not know what the noble Marquess wanted the House to do in reference to the vote which was to be taken in Tuscany next Sunday, His belief was that that election would be conducted with great order, and that it would truly indicate the wishes and feelings of the people. It was wonderful how few persons of any ability there were who belonged to the reactionary party. There was not among them a single doctor, not a single man of science, not a lawyer, not a soldier of eminence, except one. Every one whose name was known out of the country was on the side of liberty and progress. Since the noble Marquess gave notice of this Motion he had the opportunity of conversing with a gentleman who had recently returned from Florence, and he assured him that the existing Government of the country was the incarnation of the popular will; that exceptions there were, and would be in all countries, but that the Government rested upon the affections of the people. The present Government had no foreign soldiers to enforce its will, and he had no doubt that the result of the elections would be to show that the people not only placed confidence in the Government, but that it entirely adopted its policy.

LORD DENMAN

expressed a hope that the election would be allowed to proceed as freely as possible, and that the people would not be interfered with, one way or the other. Unless every part were freely represented the vote that might be arrived at would not command respect. The great object to be attained was the restoration of peace; and unless we showed perfect impartiality, our remonstrances would not he half so powerful. We did not take part in the war in Italy because we thought there was much precipitation in the conduct of the belligerent Powers, and that Sardinia herself was not altogether free from blame. He trusted that no effort would be spared to confirm and secure the peace which had been signed at Villafranca.

THE EARL OF MALMESBTJRY

I am not surprised, knowing the strong interest felt by the noble Marquess in this subject, that he should have again brought it before your Lordships. I am the less surprized at this circumstance, because it is evident that the topic which formed the main object of my noble Friend's speech was the imprisonment of certain persons by the Tuscan authorities. The noble Marquess was somewhat moved by the fact of an English lady of good family, akin to persons much respected in this country, being to a certain extent a victim of the acts of the revolutionary party. I rise, however, for the purpose of expressing the strong objection which I hold to any acts of interference upon our part with the proceedings that are now going on in Italy. My Lords, every day that passes, and every account we receive, confirm me in the conviction that our own safety hereafter and the interests of the Italian people themselves consist in our complete abnegation of interference, either in the political discussions of the Italians, or the internal administration of their affairs. I think any interference which the Government may be tempted to exercise is most to be deprecated at a time when Tuscany is about to give a positive and decided opinion upon the form of Government which they deem best for themselves. I understand that in about three days hence Tuscany will declare, by universal suffrage, whether she will annex herself to Sardinia or not. It is, therefore, I think, a mere loss of time to discuss this question in this or the other House of Parliament, when the will of the Tuscan people will be declared immediately in the face of Europe. But I entreat Her Majesty's Government to look a little before them, and to reflect upon the danger they may draw upon themselves and this country by an interference in any shape with the movements of the Italian people. It is impossible for me—indeed, I feel it would be most difficult for me even if I were in office—to fathom the real intentions of the French Government in regard to the Italian States. But there is certainly this accusation constantly made against her Majesty's Government, both in the public prints and elsewhere, that they are responsible by their acts of interference in the affairs of Italy for the difficulties we have now to encounter in respect to the annexation of Savoy. I give no opinion whether the accusation be true or not; but it is said by Frenchmen in high positions that our Government have given a pretext and a justification to the French Emperor for his act of annexation, inasmuch as they have resisted those principles of peace which he had laid down in the Treaty of Villafranca, and thwarted his views which were founded upon that convention. If that is the case, it will not be the only difficulty we shall have to encounter, because it would naturally tempt o continuance of your interference with the affairs of Italy, and you will be bound in honour hereafter to support the Italians in their onward movement; and it is impossible to say into what difficulties we may be dragged to redeem the honour and credit of England. I only wished to give expression to those few observations, deprecating, as I do—and I cannot express my objections too often—any interference on our part in the affairs of Italy. I think it is desirable to cease any further discussion on the matter in this House until the Italians in Tuscany and Romagna have publicly and indisputably declared their own wishes as to their future government. What ever those wishes may be, it is for us to respect them; and I think any officious interference on our part would only bring upon us future difficulties, without benefiting in any way the interests of the Italian peoples.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

concurred with the noble Earl as to the inexpediency of any further discussion of this question until the decision of the Tuscans and Romagnese should have been pronounced; but he regretted that the noble Earl, in recommending the cessation of discussion, should have brought an unjust accusation against Her Majesty's Government when he said that they were responsible by their interference for the present position of affairs in Italy. Neither in regard to Tuscany nor any other part of Italy had the Government taken any course but that of supporting the Italian people in the right of expressing their opinion upon their own form of government. If the Italian people had been willing to accept the settlement sketched out at Villafranca, Her Majesty's Government would have made no opposition; and the utmost they had done was to endeavour to have the basis of the Treaty of Villafranca made the subject of consultation with the Italian people, who were more interested in it. In no other sense could the Government he said to have interfered in the affairs of Italy. While agreeing with the noble Earl that we were rightly neutral in the war, he could not agree with him that, because we were neutral in the war, we should therefore be indifferent in the settlement of Italy. He thought the noble Earl, when in office did perfectly right in endeavouring to keep this country free from the responsibility of the Italian war, because it was undertaken under circumstances which made it extremely doubtful bow far the war would result in the welfare of the people of Italy; but that noble Earl, to do him justice, did not act upon a principle of perfect indifference with regard to Italian affairs, because he was perpetually interfering to prevent the war or to localize the war, and was sending telegrams almost every day to one Court or another in reference to the affairs of Italy. He did not complain of the noble Earl for taking that course; but it was in every sense an interference in the affairs of Italy, expressing the opinions of the English Government thereupon. Now, what he said was that Her Majesty's present Government—no doubt to a certain extent, with different views, and with different sympathies, had taken precisely the same course. Her Majesty's Government were simply anxious to see that settlement which would most conduce to the interests of the Italian people, and best secure the peace of Europe. They were perfectly satisfied that there could be no secure settlement unless it rested on the wishes of the Italian people, and in that opinion he had no doubt the noble Earl would agree. But if the noble Earl was disposed to raise a discussion upon the course which had been taken, Her Majesty's Government would be quite prepared to meet him. Before sitting down he would say he thought the noble Marquess had made a strange omission. He would ask the noble Marquess whether he had read the context of the despatch of July 19? The despatch of the 19th July was an answer to a despatch from Mr. Corbett, of the 12th July, in which that gentleman reported that attempts were being made to gather the opinions of the people through the municipal bodies, and there was considerable danger of intimidation being used on these occasions. The answer of Lord John Russell was simply to suggest that the opinion of the people should be freely taken in a national as- sembly. The despatch, therefore, taken with its context did not support the accusation of the noble Marquess.

THE MARUQESS OF NORMANBY

explained, that what he had said was that whereas one of the conditions of the treaty of Villafranca was that the Grand Duke should be restored, Lord John Russell, in his despatch of the 19th of July, had advised that which was in exact opposition to the treaty of Villafranca. All he said was that Lord John Russell by that act was answerable for having produced a fresh demand for the annexation of Savoy. He did not require the English Government to interfere in favour of the Grand Dukes, but common respect for the treaty should have induced Lord John Russell to abstain from urging an election under Signor Boncompagni, the nominee of the King of Sardinia. He did not think that the Under Secretary of State had answered any one of the imputations which he had brought against the conduct of the Tuscan Government with respect to the arbitrary nature of their proceedings.

THE EARL OF MALMESBURY

I am sorry to trouble your Lordships again. The noble Duke, however, obliges me to do so, in consequence of his observations that there was a similar policy pursued by the late and the present Government in regard to the affairs of Italy. Nothing could be more different than the circumstances under which the late and the present Government acted, and it is utterly impossible that their course of action could be the same. While in office my efforts for five or six months were directed in a way not to interfere personally in the affairs of Italy, but if possible to prevent the sanguinary war which was then threatened in Italy. I never gave any advice upon the affairs of Italy, except that in favour of a Congress of the European Powers, in which every one of the Italian States should be fairly and personally represented, which I believed to be the best mode of settling the difficulties that then existed. I felt a sincere interest in the people of Italy and their sufferings, but I never interfered in the way the present Government have done. Unfortunately I was unable to prevent the war. That war was followed by a sudden peace—a peace most fortunate for mankind generally, but I believe one that turned out less fortunate for certain parties in Italy than they expected. At the moment of such a peace being accomplished it was not, in my opinion, proper for a great Government like ours to intrude their opinions, and to run the risk, by thwarting that settlement, of reviving all the dangers that existed before the war took place. That is the difference in the situation of the two Governments. I again repeat that I never interfered in the affairs of Italy, except so far as to express my earnest wish in favour of a European Congress of the great Powers to arrange satisfactorily the complicated difficulties which had arisen; and to draw a comparison, such as has been made, is not a fair way of putting the case.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

explained that all he meant to say was, that the noble Earl when in office did not hold, and certainly did not act, upon the doctrine that England was absolutely isolated from Continental politics, and ought to allow affairs to be settled by the other nations, without offering any suggestions whatever; but, that on the contrary, the noble Earl offered many suggestions, in some of which he thought he was right, and in some mistaken. Her Majesty's Government had pursued the same course, holding that England had a right, not perhaps to interfere, but to make known her opinions as to what was the best mode of settling the affairs of Italy.

Motion, by leave of the House, withdrawn.

House adjourned at Half-past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.