HL Deb 18 June 1860 vol 159 cc555-7
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE

, in moving for certain Returns referring to the amount of European regiments in India, said he did not intend to enter upon a discussion of the difficult question of the expediency or wisdom of abolishing the local army; for abolition it would be, whether called by the name of amalgamation or absorption, if the Queen's regular army was to do all the work of European troops in India. Upon that point he had formed no decided opinion; but as it was mixed up with the question of the whole administration of India, he thought it important that full information should be given to the House. The Returns for which he moved would not give much information by themselves, but they would add to the information conveyed by the Papers which had been presented to the other House, and the presentation of which to their Lordships had been most unaccountably delayed. The noble Marquess concluded by moving an Address for— Return of the Number of local European Regiments in each of the Presidencies of British India, and the Total Amount of that Force on the 1st January 1830, 1835, 1840, 1845, 1850, 1856, 1857, 1858, 1859, and 1860; specifying whether Infantry, Cavalry, or Artillery: Also, Return of the Number of Regiments and the Total Amount of Force of the Queen's Army in the same Presidencies at the same Periods: And also, Return of the Number of Recruits sent from England in each of the last Four Years to different Regiments of either Army; and of the Number of Officers and Soldiers sent Home invalided or discharged from either Service in those Years:

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH

said, it was extremely important that the information now asked for should be supplied; but he should, on this occasion, imitate the example of the noble Marquess, and not go into the general question respecting the manner in which it was proposed to deal with the local army in India. At the same time he would suggest for the consideration of the Government a matter upon which silence had hitherto been observed, and which, though of great importance, must, he presumed, have escaped attention. One of the reasons assigned for the amalgamation of Her Majesty's army and the local army was, that it was most desirable that all the regiments serving in India should from time to time come to this country. Now, it was impossible for Parliament, within any period to which they might reasonably look forward, to give effect to that object. He apprehended that Parliament would he bound by its own solemn pledge, recently given within the last two years, and that it would not impose what hitherto it never had imposed—compulsory service upon any body of soldiers whatever. The position in which the affair stood was this:—The Company's army was transferred to the Crown, subject to the same conditions as those on which it was held by the Company—that is to say, it was liable to serve within the same territorial limits only, as if it had continued in the service of the Company. It was impossible, therefore, for Parliament to give to the Crown any power to send from India to England any portion of that force, unless the men should choose, on being discharged from the service, to re-enlist as if they had entered into one of the Queen's regiments. Now, it would be rather dangerous to let the bird loose from the cage, in the hope of its flying back into the window. That experiment had lately been tried, and had failed. Last year they had lost 16,000 men, and this year it was possible they might lose 15,000 more. It was not until the expiration of the men's service, which continued for ten years, and of the officer's service, which continued for life, that it would be possible for the Government, under any circumstances, to direct the transfer of any local force now in India to this country.

EARL GRANVILLE

, in assenting to the returns, deprecated discussion at the present stage of this question, and until the whole matter was before their Lordships.

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH

said, under the circumstances he had stated, this amalgamation, however important it might be, would be practically deferred, in the case of the men, until the expiration of ten years; and in the case of officers, during the whole of their lives.

VISCOUNT HARDINGE

said, there was one question which he wished to ask the noble Earl—namely, whether if an officer was once appointed to the Staff, he remained there for life, and was never remanded to his regiment?

EARL GRANVILLE

thought, it would be desirable to postpone this question, as the whole subject of the Staff was under the consideration of the Government. He, therefore, deprecated any discussion upon it at present.

VISCOUNT HARDINGE

asked when the papers moved for would be laid upon the table?

EARL GRANVILLE

Probably to-morrow.

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH

asked the Government, in laying the papers on this subject upon the table, to publish, in extenso, the letter of Lord Canning, of which, as yet, only an extract had been produced. He hoped the whole despatch might be printed entire, without injury to the public service.

Motion agreed to.