Lords Sitting of 18 June 1860

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—Several Lords.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Infants Marriage Act Amendment.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

  RESOLUTION.
  On the Motion of Lord REDESDALE, it was Resolved,
  "That this House will not read any Bill a Second Time after Tuesday, the 17th of July, except Bills of Aid or Supply, or any Bill in relation to which the House shall have resolved, before the Second Reading is moved, that the Circumstances which render Legislation on the Subject of the same expedient are either of such recent Occurrence or real Urgency as to render the immediate Consideration of the same necessary,

CATHEDRAL AND COLLEGIATE CHURCHES COMMISSION.

  QUESTION.
  LORD LYTTELTON, in rising to put the question of which he had given notice, Whether Her Majesty's Government intend to bring in any measures founded on the Report of the Commission for inquiring into the Condition of Cathedral and Collegiate Churches (1852), or the Report of the Select Committee of the House of Lords for inquiring into the Deficiency of Means of Spiritual Instruction and Places of Divine Worship in the Metropolis and populous Places (1858), said that these were strong instances of a practice too common in these days, by which important subjects

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  were examined and reported, or with the utmost diligence by Royal Commissions or Parliamentary Committees, but nothing further was done in the matter. The two bodies to whom the Question referred had applied themselves with great diligence to the investigation of the subjects. The recommendations of the Cathedral Commissioners alone occupied six folio pages, and in every case their recommendations were proper matters for the consideration of the Legislature. If these recommendations were shelved it would be an extraordinary instance of waste of labour upon a difficult and important subject. The subject of spiritual destitution was one of a different kind; and on this point there could be no doubt that the Report of the Committee of their Lordships' House which sat about two years ago had had considerable effect in diffusing information through out the country. The Committee also had made various recommendations, one only of which hade been taken up, namely, that relation to the union of benefices, a subject on which a Bill had been introduced by the right rev. Prelate near him (the Bishop of London); they had suggested that an alteration should take place in the law relating to pews and the sale of livings under the patronage of the Crown; also that power should be given to tenants for life to leave property for churches and parsonages in the same way as was now done for purposes of education. These and other minor recommendations were made by the Committee, and there were also in the evidence of Archdeacon Sinclair recommendations of various kinds on the same subject. He did not ask for legislation on these matters this Session or in any particular Session, but he wished to know whether the Government could hold out any hope that in a future Session they would be prepared to carry out any of the recommendations to which he had made reference.
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, he need hardly remind his noble Friend that it would be hopeless to hold out the expectation that legislation with the purpose of carrying out the resolutions and recommendations of the voluminous Report of this Commission could be initiated at so late a period of the Session as the 18th June. Indeed, his noble Friend had acknowledged that he did not put the question in the hope that any legislation could take place in the present Session, but rather with a view to ascertain whether the Government, in a succeeding Session,
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  would be ready to take up the question. He, however, thought that in matters of this kind, except under very peculiar circumstances, it was not desirable that a Government should pledge themselves as to the course of legislation they intended to propose in an ensuing Session. Such a course he held to be neither politic, wise, nor just. The Report of this Commission was very voluminous and complicated, many of its recommendations were at variance with the course of legislation for many years past, and great caution was required in dealing with such a large subject. Two points recommended in the Report of the Commission had already become the subject of legislation—first of all, that which referred to the union of benefices, and, in the next place, that provision which enacted that where surplus funds were paid into the hands of Ecclesiastical Commissioners the locality from which they were drawn should have the first claim upon them, if its spiritual necessities were not already provided for. With regard to the first of these, his noble Friend was aware that a Bill had been brought in on the subject by the right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of London), which had passed their Lordships' House and was now in the Commons; and, as regarded the second point, a Bill had been brought into the other House by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in which there was a clause to enable the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to meet local deficiencies. This clause would, he hoped, meet the views of his noble Friend on that subject. At any rate, he was unable to hold out to his noble Friend any hope of further legislation on this subject during the present Session.

CHURCH TEMPORALITIES (IRELAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order.)
  Clause 6 (Commissioners appointed by Her Majesty and the Archbishops to be removable.)
  EARL POWISsaid, that this clause contained an extraordinary provision relative to the removal of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners by the two Archbishops of Ireland. By Clause 1, it was enacted that there should be two Ecclesiastical Commissioners receiving a salary,—one to be appointed by the Crown, in order that the Government might be properly represented, and the other by the Primate and

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  Archbishop of Dublin, jointly, to protect the interests of the Church; but the 6th clause provided that the latter Commissioner should be removable, not by the authorities who appointed him, but by the Crown. In the analogous case of the English Church a directly contrary course was adopted, they were appointed during good behaviour, and he thought that the English precedent was the one to be observed in this case. He would, therefore, move as an Amendment that the Commissioners appointed b y Her Majesty should be removable by the Crown, and that those appointed by the Lord Primate and the Archbishop of Dublin should be removable by those Prelates.
  THE EARL OF ST. GERMANSsaid, that this was no new provision created for the first time by this Bill. The 3 and 4 William IV. already gave to the Crown the power sought for in the Bill, which merely sought to continue that power. Moreover, the Act in question had been originally framed by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners themselves, and had been passed with their concurrence.
  THE BISHOP OF DERRYsaid, he thought the matter of little importance, but preferred that the clause should stand as it did.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that if any alteration or Amendment were made, it should consist in the reduction of the two Commissioners to one, and he believed that was the general impression in Ireland. One Commissioner, he believed, had recently transacted the business.
  THE EARL OF ST. GERMANSsaid, he understood the work was more than one Commissioner could transact, although it was true that during the illness of Sir Henry Meredith, Mr. Quin had transacted the business of the Department.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 8 (Officers to be appointed).
  The EARL OF DONOUGHMOREproposed an Amendment to
  "Omit ('as the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for Ireland now pay to such Officers respectively, or such other Salaries as the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for Ireland shall from time to time hereafter, with the approbation and consent of the Lord Lieutenant, testified in writing under his hand, think fit to allow") and insert in lieu thereof ('the several Salaries set forth in the Schedule to this Act annexed, such Salaries to be payable from and after the passing of this Act, due credit being given to each of such Officers for his past service')."
  THE EARL OF ST. GERMANSobjected that it was very unusual to fix such salaries in a Bill. The more desirable course would be to leave the matter in the hands of the Commissioners, as was usually done in regard to similar departments.
  THE BISHOP OF DERRYstated that it was the intention of the Commissioners to re-arrange the salaries of their officers.
  Amendment negatived.
  Clause agreed to.
  Amendments made; the Report thereof to be received on Thursday next.

THE ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS' VALUATION.

  QUESTION.
  LORD PORTMANinquired of Her Majesty's Government, What progress had been made by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in the Valuation ordered by the Act 3 & 4 Vict., c. 183, s. 77? The matter was one of very considerable importance, and it was very desirable that the valuation in question should proceed. From circumstances, however, which had come within his observation, it appeared as if the Commissioners had been guilty of some neglect of duty or disobedience of the law. Unless some answer could be given, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners ought either to ask Parliament to repeal the clause, or else Parliament ought to put such a pressure upon them as to oblige them to carry out the law. His Question appeared to assume that some progress had been made. He had, however, reason to believe that, had he moved for a Return, the answer would have been "nil," and he asked the question to elicit some information.
  THE EARL OF CHICHESTERsaid, that his noble Friend had answered his own question. The object for which this valuation was to be made, or rather completed, was to enable the Commissioners to ascertain the value of the poor livings. One reason why they had not proceeded to cause a fresh valuation to be made was that they had obtained no additional powers since the last valuation, and there was no reason to believe that any new valuation would be more accurate than the last. The value of the property they were called upon to deal with was constantly changing, and the Commissioners believed that they were justified in postponing the valuation, in consequence of the great loss of time and labour, to say nothing of expense, which would be involved without commensurate results.

INDIA.—EUROPEAN TROOPS.

  RETURNS MOVED FOR.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE, in moving for certain Returns referring to the amount of European regiments in India, said he did not intend to enter upon a discussion of the difficult question of the expediency or wisdom of abolishing the local army; for abolition it would be, whether called by the name of amalgamation or absorption, if the Queen's regular army was to do all the work of European troops in India. Upon that point he had formed no decided opinion; but as it was mixed up with the question of the whole administration of India, he thought it important that full information should be given to the House. The Returns for which he moved would not give much information by themselves, but they would add to the information conveyed by the Papers which had been presented to the other House, and the presentation of which to their Lordships had been most unaccountably delayed. The noble Marquess concluded by moving an Address for—
  "Return of the Number of local European Regiments in each of the Presidencies of British India, and the Total Amount of that Force on the 1st January 1830, 1835, 1840, 1845, 1850, 1856, 1857, 1858, 1859, and 1860; specifying whether Infantry, Cavalry, or Artillery: Also,
  "Return of the Number of Regiments and the Total Amount of Force of the Queen's Army in the same Presidencies at the same Periods: And also,
  "Return of the Number of Recruits sent from England in each of the last Four Years to different Regiments of either Army; and of the Number of Officers and Soldiers sent Home invalided or discharged from either Service in those Years:
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, it was extremely important that the information now asked for should be supplied; but he should, on this occasion, imitate the example of the noble Marquess, and not go into the general question respecting the manner in which it was proposed to deal with the local army in India. At the same time he would suggest for the consideration of the Government a matter upon which silence had hitherto been observed, and which, though of great importance, must, he presumed, have escaped attention. One of the reasons assigned for the amalgamation of Her Majesty's army and the local army was, that it was most desirable that all the regiments serving in India should from time to time come to this country. Now, it was impossible for Parliament,
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  within any period to which they might reasonably look forward, to give effect to that object. He apprehended that Parliament would he bound by its own solemn pledge, recently given within the last two years, and that it would not impose what hitherto it never had imposed—compulsory service upon any body of soldiers whatever. The position in which the affair stood was this:—The Company's army was transferred to the Crown, subject to the same conditions as those on which it was held by the Company—that is to say, it was liable to serve within the same territorial limits only, as if it had continued in the service of the Company. It was impossible, therefore, for Parliament to give to the Crown any power to send from India to England any portion of that force, unless the men should choose, on being discharged from the service, to re-enlist as if they had entered into one of the Queen's regiments. Now, it would be rather dangerous to let the bird loose from the cage, in the hope of its flying back into the window. That experiment had lately been tried, and had failed. Last year they had lost 16,000 men, and this year it was possible they might lose 15,000 more. It was not until the expiration of the men's service, which continued for ten years, and of the officer's service, which continued for life, that it would be possible for the Government, under any circumstances, to direct the transfer of any local force now in India to this country.
  EARL GRANVILLE, in assenting to the returns, deprecated discussion at the present stage of this question, and until the whole matter was before their Lordships.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, under the circumstances he had stated, this amalgamation, however important it might be, would be practically deferred, in the case of the men, until the expiration of ten years; and in the case of officers, during the whole of their lives.
  VISCOUNT HARDINGEsaid, there was one question which he wished to ask the noble Earl—namely, whether if an officer was once appointed to the Staff, he remained there for life, and was never remanded to his regiment?
  EARL GRANVILLEthought, it would be desirable to postpone this question, as the whole subject of the Staff was under the consideration of the Government. He, therefore, deprecated any discussion upon it at present.
  VISCOUNT HARDINGEasked when the

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  papers moved for would be laid upon the table?
  EARL GRANVILLE: Probably to-morrow.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHasked the Government, in laying the papers on this subject upon the table, to publish, in extenso, the letter of Lord Canning, of which, as yet, only an extract had been produced. He hoped the whole despatch might be printed entire, without injury to the public service.
  Motion agreed to.

  ITALY.—NAPLES.—RUMOURED INTERFERENCE OF FRANCE.—QUESTION.
  LORD BROUGHAM(who had attempted to put this Question before the Orders of the Day) said:—My Lords, the experience of this evening teaches us that in order to put a Question to the Government on any subject, however urgent or important, it is necessary on every occasion to give notice of the question, and have it printed amongst the Orders of the Day. Such a course will be very inconvenient, and will often give rise to long and unnecessary discussions; for I have observed that when questions are asked without notice, they are at once answered, and there is an end of them; but that when notice is given they almost invariably lead to debates, which may sometimes be of long duration. The Question I am about to put to my noble Friend, the Lord President, arises from an impression that has prevailed for the last two days, both in Paris and London, and which has created very considerable alarm in both cities. I hope and trust that I shall receive as distinct a denial of it as my noble Friend and his colleagues are capable of giving;—but, in my opinion, their denial of having received any information or notice upon this subject from the other side of the water will be in itself a substantial contradiction of the report. It has been said, both in Paris and London, during the last two days, that the French Government are either sending, or are preparing to send, a very considerable force to the south of Italy—to the kingdom of Naples. [The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH: A military force?] A military force. A naval force they have already there, consisting of seven ships; but the despatch of a military force, as I am reminded by the noble Earl, stands in a totally different position, and naturally creates very considerable anxiety and alarm. I confess, for my own part, that I do not partake of
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  that alarm; because, even if it were true that there is a force despatched, or about to be despatched, to the kingdom of Naples, I am perfectly convinced that it is an impossibility such force should be despatched for the purpose of interposing between the King of Naples—I can now, happily, only call him the King of Naples; and not the King of the Two Sicilies—it is utterly and absolutely impossible that any force should be sent for the purpose of protecting him against his former subjects in Sicily; or of protecting him, I will venture to hope, against his subjects on the main, land. I do not believe, therefore, that if this measure is in contemplation, or if it is begun to be executed—that it could be for any one purpose connected with the King of Naples, with respect to his subjects on the mainland, or the restitution of his dominion in the island of Sicily. What might be the object of the movement, if unhappily it were about to take place, I will not venture even to conjecture, but I am only satisfied and comforted in a firm and entire belief that it cannot be for the protection of the King of Naples. My Lords, I say therefore, first, that I cannot believe there is any foundation for the rumour. If it had any foundation, some notice must have been given of it to Her Majesty's Government, and, upon finding that they have no intimation whatever from Paris on the subject, I shall believe it to he entirely erroneous. I confess I shall be glad to find I am right, and that the report is groundless; and I rejoice to think that I shall hear from my noble Friend opposite that it is so; but if not, the alarm I feel is not for the liberties of Sicily or of Naples, but it is lest there may be some intention entertained by the French Government of interfering, either with the Duchies, or with Sardinia, or with the Pope, or with Venice, and lest, therefore, there should be danger to the peace of Europe.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I regret that the noble and learned Lord should have been put to the inconvenience of waiting until now in order to submit his Question to the Government. There is some difference between giving any notice of a question and inscribing the formal notice to be printed with the Votes previously to the day on which the question is to be asked. Now, the noble and learned Lord has never given me the slightest intimation of his intention to put this question. It is, I think, convenient, not only to Members of the Cabinet, but to the public, that no-

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  tice should be given of any question of importance, inasmuch as it often happens that the Member of the Government of whom the question is to be asked finds it necessary to communicate with the head of the Department to which the subject specially refers, in order to be enabled to make a complete and satisfactory reply. If I had stated what I knew when the noble and learned Lord first put the question to me, I could only have stated my individual belief that Her Majesty's Government had received no such information as that to which the noble and learned Lord has alluded, and that it would be inconsistent with all the declarations we have received on the subject from the Emperor of the French. I have had an opportunity, however, through the delay which the forms of the House have occasioned, of communicating with my noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs on the matter, and I am enabled to state upon his authority that there is no foundation for the rumour of any French military force having been sent to the south of Italy, or that there is any intention of so doing. It is true the French have ships of war there, as we have, for the protection of British subjects and their property; but I repeat that I do not believe there is any intention of sending any troops there.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, it was satisfactory to find that this rumour was as great a fiction as the report that the British marines had taken possession of Castellamare.
  LORD BROUGHAM: If no information has been received from Paris, or elsewhere, of such intention, it is clear to my mind that the rumour is groundless. Let us hope, therefore, that there will be not only no breach of the peace, or disturbance of the tranquillity now prevailing in Italy, excepting in the South and in Sicily, but that Sicily and the South of Italy are, the one already free, and the other nearly free, from the tyranny under which they have laboured.
  House adjourned at Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, Half-past Ten o'clock.