VISCOUNT DUNGANNONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether the Report that from Four Hundred to Five Hundred Workmen had been discharged from the Dockyard at Portsmouth, there being no Employment for them, and were now engaged as shipbuilders at Cherbourg and other ports of France, was correct? He anxiously hoped the answer of the noble Duke would be satisfactory, not only to himself, but to the country at large. It would seem that various persons had gone to the police magistrates, both in the Metropolis and in other parts of the country, with the view of obtaining passports to ports of France, and stating themselves to be among the number of about 400 or 500 shipwrights who had been discharged from Portsmouth dockyard, where there was no employment for them, and adding that they were anxious to follow their fellow-workmen who had obtained employ- 162 ment in France. It was well known that there was great activity in building ships of war at this moment in France; but whether the object was merely to put the country in a necessary state of defence, or whether there was some aggressive intention meditated, he did not presume to determine; but he could not help expressing his regret that the skill and labour of a class of workmen whose exertions might at this crisis be so usefully employed at home, should be actually devoted to the service of a Foreign Power. If, therefore, the noble Duke's answer should be that the report to which he had referred was wholly unfounded, that answer would doubtless be received by their Lordships with unfeigned satisfaction. On the other hand, if the rumour was correct, he could only hope the noble Duke would be able to hold out the assurance that every department of our navy was at present in such a state as to be capable of repelling any attempt to invade or land foreign troops on our shores. From the critical position of affairs from one end of the Continent to the other, it was impossible to predict what a few months or even weeks might bring forth. They had heard much of rendering effective the defences of the country, and they had heard much of Volunteer corps being raised in every part of the kingdom. Without throwing any disparagement upon the Volunteer movement, or the adoption of other measures of defence, he thought that unless we took care to maintain our wooden walls in a thoroughly efficient condition, all our other preparations must he comparatively futile. It was to those wooden walls that we were indebted for our safety in the most perilous period of our previous history; and if we should again have occasion to look for their protection, he trusted we might be justified in relying upon them with undiminished confidence.
§ THE DUKE OF SOMERSETMy Lords, in order to answer clearly the inquiry put to me by the noble Viscount, it is desirable that I should divide it into two parts. The first question is, whether 400 or 500 workmen have been discharged from the dockyard at Portsmouth; and the next whether those workmen have since been engaged as shipwrights at Cherbourg and other ports in France. To the first question my answer is that a good many men have been discharged since the commencement of the financial year, and I will state the reason. Indeed, I mentioned it in 163 this House on a previous occasion. When I acceded to my present office last year there was a programme of very extensive works before the Department, and when I, came to examine how far we should be able to perform it I came to the opinion myself, and was also advised by those who were competent to judge of the matter, that we had not money enough or workmen enough to complete that programme within the year. We, therefore, took a Vote of another £100,000, and added largely to the number of men in the dockyards. We could not obtain the men we wanted immediately in the summer, and consequently during the few closing months of the financial year we had in the dockyards a larger force than was ever employed in them at any other period during the present century. When the works had gone on some time, I was advised that if I continued operations at the same rate, the timber would be exhausted, and that it would be impossible that the other trades could keep up with the shipwrights. It was therefore necessary that the work of the shipwrights should proceed somewhat more slowly. I determined to make no alteration till the financial year had concluded, and not to dismiss any of the men in a hurry, but to pay off only a few every week of the inferior class, and retain the better workmen. By that means the number of hands in the dockyards had been reduced from 20,000 to 17,000 some odd hundreds, a number quite sufficient for the work to be performed during the year. With regard to the next part of the question—whether the men who had been dismissed from our dockyards had found employment in France—I can only say that, to the best of my belief, there is no foundation whatever for that report. I saw the report some weeks ago in the papers, when I made inquiry, and was informed that at Cherbourg they had more than a sufficient number of French shipwrights for the works going on there, the highest rate of wages being only 4 francs, while in our dockyards 6s. per day are the wages earned on task and job. It is not likely therefore that men would go there for the sake of such reduced wages. But I was also informed that so far from taking on our shipwrights, that 400 shipwrights have been dismissed from the dockyard at Cherbourg from motives of economy in the last six weeks. In the first place, then, we have not largely reduced the number of labourers, artificers, and shipwrights in our 164 dockyard; and, although they have been reduced to 17,000, that is a greater number than we had ever before working in the dockyards of the country—even in 1815—and far beyond any ordinary requirements. I therefore trust that, on the question of the number of men, the answer I have given to the question of the noble Lord will be satisfactory; and as to the men who have been dismissed from our yards being employed in the French dockyards, if at Cherbourg they have discharged some of their own workmen, and the rate of wages there is so much lower than in our dockyards, it appears very improbable that our artificers, who, I imagine, are quite able to look to their own interests, would resort to France in order to improve their condition. With regard to another point, the noble Lord has asked me whether I am satisfied with the position of the navy of this country. Of course, if I had complete satisfaction, the Government would not have proposed such large Estimates as they have done this year. It is because I wish to raise the navy to a more efficient state that we take such large Estimates, and on that ground I am actually employing the large number of men which I have stated in our dockyards.
THE EARL OF SHREWSBURY AND TALBOTwished to corroborate the statements which had been made by the noble Duke. From private information, on which he could rely, he had learned that only two English mechanics had been over at Cherbourg, and that in a very short time, being pretty nearly in a state of starvation, they applied to be sent home to this country. Five francs per day was the highest wages given to shipwrights there, not four francs, as stated by the noble Duke, and he thought it well this should be publicly stated lest any ship carpenters who happened to be discharged here should go to France endeavouring to procure employment in a country where they would find none so remunerative as at home, and thus expose themselves to great hardships and privations. He was glad the apprehensions of his noble Friend had been set at rest on the subject of these reports, and he hoped no such absurd reports would be allowed to prevail again.
VISCOUNT DUNGANNONsaid, he was perfectly satisfied with the information he had received, and he was sure what had fallen from the noble Duke, corroborated by the noble Earl, would afford very considerable satisfaction to the country.