MOTION FOR PAPERS. (Hansard, 30 July 1860)

THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBY,
in rising to move for certain Papers referring to the Administration of the Roman States, said it was proper that he should, in the first place, state this Motion did not originate with himself; but from the fact that a Member of the other House of Parliament had moved for certain Despatches which had been addressed to him when he was Her Majesty's Minister at Florence, by the Secretary of Legation who was at the time unofficially residing at Rome; the object of the Motion being, no doubt, to adduce, upon the most undoubted authority, some proof that the allegations made of the con- 337 tinued misgovernment of the Roman States were exaggerated. Now, that question of the Government of the Papal States was one upon which the powers of observation of his Friend, Mr. Lyons, were calculated to throw considerable light, guided, as they were, by an accurate and impartial spirit. But, independently of that question, there was another of equal importance, which he proposed to raise by the Motion which he was about to make—namely, what was likely to be the effect on the influence and character of this country of those sort of Ministerial declarations to which he alluded when he gave notice of his Motion, which seemed to him to be vented in a spirit of levity; and which all Europe combined to consider as unfounded. This declaration, made in 1856 by the noble Viscount then, and now, at the head of the Government, in favour of the Roman Republic of 1849, had been made upon the part of many eminent French publicists the subject of comment, the severity of which he regretted more than he doubted its justice. He would briefly explain the character and substance of the papers for which he moved, as showing the effect of that declaration. Those who were acquainted with our relations with the Court of Rome, must be aware that Mr. Lyons resided at that capital in an entirely unrecognized position; and it was necessary, in order that he should be enabled to cooperate with Mr. Lyons with advantage, that there should be no doubt in the minds of those to whom he addressed himself, that the object of the English Government was the amelioration, and not the overthrow, of established institutions: in short, that they sought reform, not revolution. When, therefore, he ascertained that a high Ministerial authority had conveyed the impression to Italy that the British Government sympathised with the cause of revolution, it was easy to perceive that the efforts of Mr. Lyons and himself must be comparatively barren of results. Every one who read the papers he now referred to, would see that something inauspicious had occurred. In 1856, Mr. Lyons was charged with a somewhat delicate mission—namely, to communicate from his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Clarendon) to Cardinal Antonelli his impressions as to what had passed at the Congress of Paris. That mission Mr. Lyons, as would be seen by his despatches, had executed with great tact; and whatever representations he had made to Cardinal Antonelli, at the inter- 338 view of the 24th of May, had been received with the most courteous attention. At that time neither were aware of the declaration to which he had already alluded—that Rome had never been better governed than during the absence of the Pope. Now, it could hardly be supposed that, in making such a declaration, some allusion would not be made to the peculiar circumstances under which that absence took place. That absence was caused by the murder of his Minister on the steps of the National Assembly. The state of feeling existing at the time in Rome, was evidenced by the circumstance which was mentioned in the despatch of the French Ambassador, announcing the assassination, that the National Assembly proceeded with the order of the day, without taking any notice of the incident. But he well remembered the effect that was produced in Paris when the assassination was announced in the French Constituent Assembly: even M. Bixio, an Italian and a revolutionist, expressed his horror and indignation. Such were the circumstances under which the Pope was absent from Rome in 1848 and 1849; yet that state of things, it appeared, met the approbation of one, at least, of Her Majesty's Ministers. Mr. Lyons did not again see Cardinal Antonelli until the 30th of May; and in the meantime the excitement had been much increased by what passed in the British Parliament. Cardinal Antonelli was always courteous to Mr. Lyons; but he found his tone completely altered; and when he endeavoured to bring to something like a definite issue, the question whether the Papal Government, within a reasonable time, would or would not undertake to adopt any reforms at all, the Cardinal became almost entirely silent. At that very time he himself was also endeavouring to obtain from the Roman Government concessions of a similar character. For this purpose he had several interviews with a gentleman possessing influence at the Court of Rome, and strove to influence his mind favourably towards the project of a deliberative Council. But the reply which he received was, "How can you expect we should consider these reforms, when the head of your Government holds up, as a model for our imitation, a system which we believe to be inconsistent with security to life and property?" Such was the effect produced by that declaration in Parliament of the noble Lord at the head of the Government. That was not the first time he had dis- 339 cussed the character of the Roman Republic with the noble Viscount at the head of the Government. Before, at, and after the siege of Rome, it became known that the noble Lord had expressed great sympathy with the Republican party. Now, he (the Marquess of Normanby) happened to be Her Majesty's Minister at Paris in 1849, and he received from M. Drouyn del 'Huys, the French Minister of Foreign Affairs, and from M. de Tocqueville, who succeeded him, a communication of all the documents which bore on the conduct of the French expedition to Rome; and showing not only the exemplary behaviour of the French troops in Rome, but the real character of the Government which had been overthrown there. Within the last few days his own recollection of the matter had been confirmed by M. Drouyn del' Huys, whom he had consulted on the subject. The result of a close investigation made by the French Government at that time was communicated, not only to all the Foreign Ambassadors at Paris, but brought to England by M. Drouyn del' Huys when he was appointed Ambassador here; and so anxious was he to convince the British Government of the real character of the Republic which had been overthrown, and of the exemplary conduct of the French army, that he exceeded the usual limits of diplomatic intercourse, and placed all these despatches in the hands of the Foreign Secretary, and of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lansdowne), the leader of their Lordships' House. Every reason, therefore, existed for believing that the former statements of the noble Lord had been completely disproved. But when seven years afterwards these were revived circumstances had changed, and the noble Viscount was no longer connected with the Department of Foreign Affairs nor was he himself in communication with the noble Viscount. Towards the close of Lord Aberdeen's Administration, however, on the resignation of Sir Henry Bulwer, he accepted from his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Clarendon) the post of Minister at Florence. He had had the opportunity of witnessing the very great sensation created all over Europe by he conduct of Her Majesty's Government in reference to these transactions, and to guard against the repetition of similar errors he deemed it his duty to write an official protest. It was for a copy of the Despatch containing that protest, as well as for extracts from other documents, showing how 340 the efforts of Mr. Lyons and himself had been impeded, that he now wished to move. But, before doing so, he wished to point out the manner in which the (as he thought) unwarrantable statement of the noble Lord had been reflected upon in foreign publications of extraordinary literary merit. The Bishop of Orleans, in a chapter of his book, "Sur la Souveraineté Pontificale," headed l' Angleterre—Les Préventions Haineuses, says,— Lord Palmerston went still further, and truly he passed all limit, when in open Parliament this Minister, invested with the highest authority which an individual can hold in the world, dared to pronounce these words in honour of the revolutionary Government of Rome, 'The Holy City was never better governed than during the absence of the Pope.' [The Marquess of CLANRICARDE: Hear, hear!] The noble Marquess cheers that statement; but he believed his information as to the state of Rome was worth as little as that relating to Florence had been shown to be. For his own part, he maintained with M. de Montalembert, who gave proof last year of the sincerity of his conviction in favour of English institutions by the sacrifice of his personal liberty that The worst enemies of England could not wish for her a more flagrant condemnation than to see her First Minister constitute himself the posthumous apologist of a state of things that had assassination for its origin and as its consequence.…Before, during, and after the siege of Rome it was the poniard that was the arm and the symbol of the pretended liberty of the pretended nationality of the Romans. The Roman Republic owed its origin to the stroke of the dagger which killed Rossi; that poniard which was hailed as blessed and democratic, and which was promenaded about the streets of dishonoured Rome, accompanied by songs of triumph. Throughout the duration of the new Republic assassination was the ordinary expedient of the secret societies to restrain the people by terror. Priests, officers, citizens of all classes were the victims. Not a single assassin was arrested or punished during the Republic,—not even that miserable Tambianchi, colonel of the Finance Guard, who murdered so many innocent people in his own district of St. Caliste, and who caused the Cure de la Minerve to be shot before his eyes after a supper which he had forced the venerable priest to attend. After the taking of Rome, the oath to stab every one who should show any satisfaction, or should give in their adhesion to the French, was taken and rigorously carried out. The orders of the day of Generals Rostolan and Baraguay d'Hilliers were there, with many other documents, to confirm the necessity there was for the utmost vigilance and strictness to prevent the soldiers falling victims to the dagger of the assassins. It was not probable that Lord Palmerston would dare to contest the truth and integrity of the French Council of War. 341 On this particular subject M. de Montalembert, it might be said, had strong opinions; but no such objections would be urged against M. de Tocqueville, who was essentially Liberal in his opinions. He was in the habit of seeing M. de Tocqueville almost every day at the time of the French expedition to Rome, and he had often repeated to him his wonder at the manner in which Lord Palmerston chose to disbelieve the mass of facts which were laid before him, and still continued to think the Roman Republic worthy of his support—a Government which M. de Tocqueville said he held to be wanting in all the first duties of every Government. He based the Motion with which he meant to conclude on the ground that the papers al-already presented would not give an accurate impression of the truth without these Despatches. They would give an impression unjust to Mr. Lyons and himself, and, to a certain extent, to the Roman Government, inasmuch as there would then remain no trace of the fact that it was in consequence of a natural feeling of irritation at what they considered an insult that they were less disposed to listen to our suggestions, and to give a favourable consideration to plans of administrative reform. The noble Marquess concluded by moving,— That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Copies or Extracts from the Despatches of Her Majesty's Minister in Tuscany in 1855, 1856, and 1857, referring to the Condition and Administration of the Roman States.

LORD WODEHOUSE
said, that there would be no objection to the production of the papers moved for by the noble Marquess, though he could not see any connection between them and the despatches already laid on the table from Mr. Lyons. Probably those who had not followed the noble Marquess very closely might not be aware that the events to which he referred took place in 1849, while the speech of Lord Palmerston on which he had commented was not made until 1856. The noble Marquess, therefore, perhaps might have spared the House a discussion which had not much to do with the events of the present day. The noble Marquess moved for copies or extracts from the despatches of Her Majesty's Minister in Tuscany in 1855–6–7, referring to the condition and administration of the Roman States. Their Lordships would imagine that it involved a large mass of correspondence, but the truth was there were only two papers, and 342 they referred entirely to a speech made by Lord Palmerston in 1856. He would not weary their Lordships by going into an explanation of the matters of 1856 and 1849, but the noble Marquess said, if the despatch was produced, there would be ample means of knowing that the statements made by Lord Palmerston were not correct. Lord Palmerston's statement was based on the official reports of the consular agent at Rome. The answer that was given by the then Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was from the despatches from the British agent at Rome stating the circumstances of the time, and on these statements Lord Palmerston based his remarks. The noble Marquess said that he was at Paris at the time, and that therefore he knew better what took place at Rome than the consul himself; but their Lordships on the production of the papers would be able to judge of the facts of the case.

THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBY,
in reply, said the question was not one between him and the consular agent at Rome, but between the consular agent and every other person who was acquainted with what was going on at Rome at the time.