Lords Sitting of 30 July 1860

MINUTES.
Took the Oath.—General Sir Colin Campbell, G.C.B., having been created Baron Clyde—was (in the usual Manner) introduced.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Clearance Inwards and Lien for Freight; Census (Scotland); Corrupt Practices Prevention Act (1854) Continuance; Rifle Volunteer Corps; Gunpowder, &c.
3a Registration of Births, &c. (Scotland); Highways (South Wales); Manchester Cathedral Church; Postage (Army and Navy); Medical Act (1858) Amendment; Highway Bates Act Continuance.

ITALY.—THE ROMAN STATES.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBY,in rising to move for certain Papers referring to the Administration of the Roman States, said it was proper that he should, in the first place, state this Motion did not originate with himself; but from the fact that a Member of the other House of Parliament had moved for certain Despatches which had been addressed to him when he was Her Majesty's Minister at Florence, by the Secretary of Legation who was at the time unofficially residing at Rome; the object of the Motion being, no doubt, to adduce, upon the most undoubted authority, some proof that the allegations made of the con-

  337
  tinued misgovernment of the Roman States were exaggerated. Now, that question of the Government of the Papal States was one upon which the powers of observation of his Friend, Mr. Lyons, were calculated to throw considerable light, guided, as they were, by an accurate and impartial spirit. But, independently of that question, there was another of equal importance, which he proposed to raise by the Motion which he was about to make—namely, what was likely to be the effect on the influence and character of this country of those sort of Ministerial declarations to which he alluded when he gave notice of his Motion, which seemed to him to be vented in a spirit of levity; and which all Europe combined to consider as unfounded. This declaration, made in 1856 by the noble Viscount then, and now, at the head of the Government, in favour of the Roman Republic of 1849, had been made upon the part of many eminent French publicists the subject of comment, the severity of which he regretted more than he doubted its justice. He would briefly explain the character and substance of the papers for which he moved, as showing the effect of that declaration. Those who were acquainted with our relations with the Court of Rome, must be aware that Mr. Lyons resided at that capital in an entirely unrecognized position; and it was necessary, in order that he should be enabled to cooperate with Mr. Lyons with advantage, that there should be no doubt in the minds of those to whom he addressed himself, that the object of the English Government was the amelioration, and not the overthrow, of established institutions: in short, that they sought reform, not revolution. When, therefore, he ascertained that a high Ministerial authority had conveyed the impression to Italy that the British Government sympathised with the cause of revolution, it was easy to perceive that the efforts of Mr. Lyons and himself must be comparatively barren of results. Every one who read the papers he now referred to, would see that something inauspicious had occurred. In 1856, Mr. Lyons was charged with a somewhat delicate mission—namely, to communicate from his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Clarendon) to Cardinal Antonelli his impressions as to what had passed at the Congress of Paris. That mission Mr. Lyons, as would be seen by his despatches, had executed with great tact; and whatever representations he had made to Cardinal Antonelli, at the inter-
  338
  view of the 24th of May, had been received with the most courteous attention. At that time neither were aware of the declaration to which he had already alluded—that Rome had never been better governed than during the absence of the Pope. Now, it could hardly be supposed that, in making such a declaration, some allusion would not be made to the peculiar circumstances under which that absence took place. That absence was caused by the murder of his Minister on the steps of the National Assembly. The state of feeling existing at the time in Rome, was evidenced by the circumstance which was mentioned in the despatch of the French Ambassador, announcing the assassination, that the National Assembly proceeded with the order of the day, without taking any notice of the incident. But he well remembered the effect that was produced in Paris when the assassination was announced in the French Constituent Assembly: even M. Bixio, an Italian and a revolutionist, expressed his horror and indignation. Such were the circumstances under which the Pope was absent from Rome in 1848 and 1849; yet that state of things, it appeared, met the approbation of one, at least, of Her Majesty's Ministers. Mr. Lyons did not again see Cardinal Antonelli until the 30th of May; and in the meantime the excitement had been much increased by what passed in the British Parliament. Cardinal Antonelli was always courteous to Mr. Lyons; but he found his tone completely altered; and when he endeavoured to bring to something like a definite issue, the question whether the Papal Government, within a reasonable time, would or would not undertake to adopt any reforms at all, the Cardinal became almost entirely silent. At that very time he himself was also endeavouring to obtain from the Roman Government concessions of a similar character. For this purpose he had several interviews with a gentleman possessing influence at the Court of Rome, and strove to influence his mind favourably towards the project of a deliberative Council. But the reply which he received was, "How can you expect we should consider these reforms, when the head of your Government holds up, as a model for our imitation, a system which we believe to be inconsistent with security to life and property?" Such was the effect produced by that declaration in Parliament of the noble Lord at the head of the Government. That was not the first time he had dis-

  339
  cussed the character of the Roman Republic with the noble Viscount at the head of the Government. Before, at, and after the siege of Rome, it became known that the noble Lord had expressed great sympathy with the Republican party. Now, he (the Marquess of Normanby) happened to be Her Majesty's Minister at Paris in 1849, and he received from M. Drouyn del 'Huys, the French Minister of Foreign Affairs, and from M. de Tocqueville, who succeeded him, a communication of all the documents which bore on the conduct of the French expedition to Rome; and showing not only the exemplary behaviour of the French troops in Rome, but the real character of the Government which had been overthrown there. Within the last few days his own recollection of the matter had been confirmed by M. Drouyn del' Huys, whom he had consulted on the subject. The result of a close investigation made by the French Government at that time was communicated, not only to all the Foreign Ambassadors at Paris, but brought to England by M. Drouyn del' Huys when he was appointed Ambassador here; and so anxious was he to convince the British Government of the real character of the Republic which had been overthrown, and of the exemplary conduct of the French army, that he exceeded the usual limits of diplomatic intercourse, and placed all these despatches in the hands of the Foreign Secretary, and of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lansdowne), the leader of their Lordships' House. Every reason, therefore, existed for believing that the former statements of the noble Lord had been completely disproved. But when seven years afterwards these were revived circumstances had changed, and the noble Viscount was no longer connected with the Department of Foreign Affairs nor was he himself in communication with the noble Viscount. Towards the close of Lord Aberdeen's Administration, however, on the resignation of Sir Henry Bulwer, he accepted from his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Clarendon) the post of Minister at Florence. He had had the opportunity of witnessing the very great sensation created all over Europe by he conduct of Her Majesty's Government in reference to these transactions, and to guard against the repetition of similar errors he deemed it his duty to write an official protest. It was for a copy of the Despatch containing that protest, as well as for extracts from other documents, showing how
  340
  the efforts of Mr. Lyons and himself had been impeded, that he now wished to move. But, before doing so, he wished to point out the manner in which the (as he thought) unwarrantable statement of the noble Lord had been reflected upon in foreign publications of extraordinary literary merit. The Bishop of Orleans, in a chapter of his book, "Sur la Souveraineté Pontificale," headed l' Angleterre—Les Préventions Haineuses, says,—
  "Lord Palmerston went still further, and truly he passed all limit, when in open Parliament this Minister, invested with the highest authority which an individual can hold in the world, dared to pronounce these words in honour of the revolutionary Government of Rome, 'The Holy City was never better governed than during the absence of the Pope.'"
  [The Marquess of CLANRICARDE: Hear, hear!] The noble Marquess cheers that statement; but he believed his information as to the state of Rome was worth as little as that relating to Florence had been shown to be. For his own part, he maintained with M. de Montalembert, who gave proof last year of the sincerity of his conviction in favour of English institutions by the sacrifice of his personal liberty that
  "The worst enemies of England could not wish for her a more flagrant condemnation than to see her First Minister constitute himself the posthumous apologist of a state of things that had assassination for its origin and as its consequence.…Before, during, and after the siege of Rome it was the poniard that was the arm and the symbol of the pretended liberty of the pretended nationality of the Romans. The Roman Republic owed its origin to the stroke of the dagger which killed Rossi; that poniard which was hailed as blessed and democratic, and which was promenaded about the streets of dishonoured Rome, accompanied by songs of triumph. Throughout the duration of the new Republic assassination was the ordinary expedient of the secret societies to restrain the people by terror. Priests, officers, citizens of all classes were the victims. Not a single assassin was arrested or punished during the Republic,—not even that miserable Tambianchi, colonel of the Finance Guard, who murdered so many innocent people in his own district of St. Caliste, and who caused the Cure de la Minerve to be shot before his eyes after a supper which he had forced the venerable priest to attend. After the taking of Rome, the oath to stab every one who should show any satisfaction, or should give in their adhesion to the French, was taken and rigorously carried out. The orders of the day of Generals Rostolan and Baraguay d'Hilliers were there, with many other documents, to confirm the necessity there was for the utmost vigilance and strictness to prevent the soldiers falling victims to the dagger of the assassins. It was not probable that Lord Palmerston would dare to contest the truth and integrity of the French Council of War."

  341
  On this particular subject M. de Montalembert, it might be said, had strong opinions; but no such objections would be urged against M. de Tocqueville, who was essentially Liberal in his opinions. He was in the habit of seeing M. de Tocqueville almost every day at the time of the French expedition to Rome, and he had often repeated to him his wonder at the manner in which Lord Palmerston chose to disbelieve the mass of facts which were laid before him, and still continued to think the Roman Republic worthy of his support—a Government which M. de Tocqueville said he held to be wanting in all the first duties of every Government. He based the Motion with which he meant to conclude on the ground that the papers al-already presented would not give an accurate impression of the truth without these Despatches. They would give an impression unjust to Mr. Lyons and himself, and, to a certain extent, to the Roman Government, inasmuch as there would then remain no trace of the fact that it was in consequence of a natural feeling of irritation at what they considered an insult that they were less disposed to listen to our suggestions, and to give a favourable consideration to plans of administrative reform. The noble Marquess concluded by moving,—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Copies or Extracts from the Despatches of Her Majesty's Minister in Tuscany in 1855, 1856, and 1857, referring to the Condition and Administration of the Roman States."
  LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, that there would be no objection to the production of the papers moved for by the noble Marquess, though he could not see any connection between them and the despatches already laid on the table from Mr. Lyons. Probably those who had not followed the noble Marquess very closely might not be aware that the events to which he referred took place in 1849, while the speech of Lord Palmerston on which he had commented was not made until 1856. The noble Marquess, therefore, perhaps might have spared the House a discussion which had not much to do with the events of the present day. The noble Marquess moved for copies or extracts from the despatches of Her Majesty's Minister in Tuscany in 1855–6–7, referring to the condition and administration of the Roman States. Their Lordships would imagine that it involved a large mass of correspondence, but the truth was there were only two papers, and
  342
  they referred entirely to a speech made by Lord Palmerston in 1856. He would not weary their Lordships by going into an explanation of the matters of 1856 and 1849, but the noble Marquess said, if the despatch was produced, there would be ample means of knowing that the statements made by Lord Palmerston were not correct. Lord Palmerston's statement was based on the official reports of the consular agent at Rome. The answer that was given by the then Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was from the despatches from the British agent at Rome stating the circumstances of the time, and on these statements Lord Palmerston based his remarks. The noble Marquess said that he was at Paris at the time, and that therefore he knew better what took place at Rome than the consul himself; but their Lordships on the production of the papers would be able to judge of the facts of the case.
  THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBY,in reply, said the question was not one between him and the consular agent at Rome, but between the consular agent and every other person who was acquainted with what was going on at Rome at the time.
  The Papers were then ordered to be laid on the table.

COAST OF AFRICA, &c, ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
EARL GRANVILLEmoved, that the House go into Committee on this Bill pro formâ, in order that it might be reprinted with Amendments.
THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, that as the Bill at present stood it was perfectly unintelligible. He was quite unable to discover what its purpose was.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the object of the measure was to provide for the government of certain places, possessions of the British Crown, but in. which no Government bad been established by Her Majesty's authority. By the 6 & 7 Vict. c. 13, Her Majesty was authorized to provide for the government of the British Settlements on the Coast of Africa and in the Falkland Islands, whether places then occupied or that might be thereafter occupied by British subjects resorting to those coasts; and by the 21 & 22 Vict., c. 106, the "Act for the better Government of India, "India was defined as comprising certain territories, and provision was made for their Government. Since this time certain

343
islands which fell within the definition of the last mentioned Act had been occupied by British subjects—the circumstances of some were certainly rather peculiar, for he believed that one island was settled by a single Englishman. Under the ordinary course of settlement, every Englishman carried with him the English law into the land of his settlement, so far as it was applicable to the circumstances of the country; but in the cases which had given rise to this measure there was this difficulty—that the places had been acquired by the East Indian Government, and being within the definition of India were subjected as to their Government to the provision of the Act. It was proposed by this measure to withdraw settlements such as he had described from the operation of the Government of India Act, and to place them under the provisions of the 6 & 7 Vict., c. 13.
THE EARL OF POWISthought that when the third clause of the Bill came to be looked into, it would be found that it required a similar modification to that proposed for the first and second clause.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that this short Bill illustrated the manner in which business—perhaps unavoidably—was conducted at this period of the Session. This Bill did not, apparently, originate with any Member of the Government, but, as far as he could understand, with an Under Secretary in the Colonial Department, who thought it expedient to introduce provisions which would enable Her Majesty to place under any law which she might deem best, the whole of the British dominions in India, with the exception of one point, which might be the Andaman Islands. The India Office had repudiated this Bill; but through some "inadvertence"—a convenient term—the Bill had been put into the hands of the noble Earl, without one word of explanation. He had the curiosity to inquire how many white faces there were in the Island of Labuan, and found the number to be thirty one, including the Governor, the Deputy Governor, the Treasurer, the Commander-in-Chief, and an army of five white soldiers. But what was the most remarkable thing was that there was a Bishop, whose whole congregation was composed of these officials. It had been said elsewhere that there had been some communication between the Colonial Office and the India Office in reference to Singapore, which it was proposed to hand over to the Colonial
344
Office. He should advise the Government to consider very seriously before they did this. When the East India Company was in existence, some gentlemen at Singapore were not very well satisfied; but there was now an end to the East India Company, and it was just as likely that there would be a capable man for Secretary of State for India as for Colonial Secretary. The colony would thus far, therefore, be in the same position whether under the one or the other. But Singapore was very near to India and very far from Downing Street, and it was most convenient that the place should be governed by the nearest authority. As a commercial question the matter was of no importance, but Singapore was extremely important in a military point of view. If we were compelled to send military forces to China, the greatest portion of the troops must go from India, and Singapore would be their depot. In this respect it was important that Singapore should be in the hands of the authorities sending the troops. When he himself had occasion to send an expedition to China, Sir George Bonham, a most able man, was at Singapore, and not a single ship was delayed; but if Singapore had been under the Colonial Office there would, probably, have been great delay.
House in Committee; Bill reported, without Amendment; Amendments made; Bill re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

COUNTY COURTS.

  MOTION FOR RETURNS.
  LORD BROUGHAM,in moving for certain Returns referring to the business transacted by the Superior Courts and County Courts respectively, said, his object in moving for these Returns was to show the extent of the jurisdiction of these Courts, and the vast amount of the business they transacted. No less than 738,000 suits were commenced in those Courts in one year. The amount of money claimed in those suits was £1,900,000, and the sum recovered £970,000. These figures alone indicated the vast importance of this local jurisdiction. The number of actions commenced in the superior Courts last year was 86,277. He found that in the County Courts there were in one year 3,631 suits for sums between £20 and £50, while in the superior Courts there were only 378 cases. The great importance of the County Court jurisdiction could not, therefore, be

  345
  overrated. And in connection with this subject he would call his noble and learned Friend's attention to a suggestion which he made many years ago in that place—he meant the expediency from time to time of promoting County Court Judges. In the first place, it would give us access to the highest ability and the greatest learning in the profession—to much greater learning and much higher ability than we are likely to obtain if these County Court Judges had no prospect whatever of further advancement. But there was another argument in favour of the suggestion he had made. No one who knew Westminster Hall would deny that there was always very great difficulty in determining whether those promoted to the bench were suited by judicial qualities for that position. The only test they had was generally a very fallacious one as to judicial fitness—namely, success at the bar. A man, as every day's experience showed, might be very eminent as an advocate without being equally distinguished as a judge. Many a person most distinguished at the bar had disappointed expectations on the bench. But in the County Courts they saw men displaying judicial qualities of great distinction, and if they found that a Judge was greatly preferred by suitors, because he gave satisfaction in that important office where there was a choice in trying the action, they had an excellent test whereby to determine his capacity for judicial duty. He hoped his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack would give his best attention to this subject. The noble and learned Lord concluded by moving for Returns of Writs of Summons and Plaints issued from the Superior Courts and County Courts respectively in the years 1858 and 1859, and the results, distinguishing the verdicts or judgments for sums between £20 and £50.
  Returns ordered.

  STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATES BILL.
  LORD DENMANsaid, that this Bill, which stood on the paper in his name, had come up to the House after the 26th July, the day after which the Resolution adopted by their Lordships declared that no Bill, unless of a very urgent nature, should be read a second time. He considered this Bill to be of a very urgent nature, and therefore begged to move to resolve,
  "That as regards the Stipendiary Magistrates Bill the Difficulties attending the Execution of the Office of Justice of the Peace in unincorporated
  346
  populous and increasing Towns and Places constitute Circumstances of such real Urgency as to render the immediate Consideration of the said Bill necessary."
  LORD REDESDALEthought his noble Friend had not made out any case which would justify the House in departing from the Resolution which had been adopted with regard to the period after which Bills, unless of an urgent character, would not be read a second time.
  EARL GRANVILLEunderstood that it was by mere inadvertence as to a point of form that the noble Lord had been prevented from placing the Notice on the Paper insufficient time. It was for their Lordships to consider, under such circumstances, whether they would be disposed to suspend the Standing Order.
  After a short conversation, Resolved in the negative.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.