Lords Sitting of 27 July 1860

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Poor Law Board Continuance; Local Government Supplemental (No. 2): Militia Ballot.
2a Militia; Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Act Amendment; Landed Property Improvement (Ireland); Metropolitan Police Force (Dockyards); Heritable Securities, &c. (Scotland); Turnpike Acts Continuance; Maynooth College; Bank of Ireland (No. 2); Weights and Measures (Ireland); Police and Towns Improvement (Scotland) Act Amendment; Sheriff Court Houses (Scotland); Local Government Act (1858) Amendment; County Coroners; Common Law Procedure (Ireland) Act (1853) Amendment; Copyhold and Inclosure Commissions, &c; Turnpike Trusts Arrangements; Railways Act (Ireland) (1851) Amendment; Game Certificates, &c.
3a Bleaching and Dyeing Works; Lands Clauses Consolidation Act (1845) Amendment; Queen's Prison; Offences within Her Majesty's Possessions Abroad; Nuisances Removal and Diseases Prevention.

PRIVATE BILLS AND BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

  RESOLUTIONS MOVED.
  LORD BROUGHAM,who had given notice to move certain Resolutions connected with Private Bills and the Business of the House, said: I have now, my Lords, to administer a small homoeopathic dose to your Lordships, by merely presenting my Resolutions, instead of waiting till a later period of the night, when the dose would not be at all homoeopathic, and when I should be obliged to enter on the subject at large. On a former occasion I gave a notice; but, as it stands after all the Orders of the Day, I am precluded from bringing forward the important subject to which it relates at a time when it would have been most convenient for me to do so. I have been labouring all day in this House with several of your Lordships, and am very much disposed to be relieved from further attendance; and therefore, I shall at present only propose these Resolutions, which I shall not debate, which I shall not open in any way. I only humbly recommend them to the attention of your Lordships, particularly to my noble Friend the late Speaker of the House of Commons, and I will venture to say a better Speaker of that House there never was, either in our time or in the times before us, I particularly recommend these Resolutions to his best attention. They are framed with the design of preventing that House, of which he was the head and the organ for so many years, becoming, according to its etymological derivation, a mere Parliamentary, a mere colloquial assembly, a mere place of talk—a place of much talk—and, I was going to say, little work; but it would be a compliment to

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  say little work—a place of mere talk, and no work at all. I do not say such is the present state of that House—Heaven forbid! But these Resolutions have a tendency to prevent that great mischief to the community, which would be the obstruction of all legislation and of all good government—if that should ever come to pass. I hope in Heaven it never may happen! These Resolutions were the result of an humble endeavour on my part to prevent so great a calamity, and to render, if possible, the other branch of the Legislature, as well as your Lordships' House, a place of work. The bulk of the Resolutions I moved in 1847, having obtained the co-operation in reducing them into a shape to be acted upon of an illustrious friend of mine—now unhappily no more, whose loss we feel every day—nay, every hour of every day, whether in connection with our home concerns or our foreign relations, whether we be in the enjoyment of the blessings of peace or encountering the disasters of war—I now, my Lords, make another attempt in the same direction, in the earnest hope that it may be attended with the same success. The noble and learned Lord concluded by laying the Resolutions on the table.
  Debate arising thereupon, the further Debate adjourned sine die; the said Resolutions to be printed.

  MILITIA BILL.

    SECOND READING.
    Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
    EARL DE GREY AND RIPON,in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, said, the first power which it would confer was te enable Her Majesty to unite together, for the purpose of forming a corps of Artillery Militia, portions of the Militia of adjoining counties, and of divisions of counties. Provision was next made for the establishment, by the joint action of the counties, of storehouses for the united Artillery corps. The machinery for that purpose had been adopted from an Act passed some years ago for the establishment of joint lunatic asylums by different counties. Owing to the different arrangements with respect to county rates in Ireland, it had been necessary to alter the wording of the clauses relating to that country, but the object contemplated was precisely the same. The inconvenience which had been experienced from the non-
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    ability of borough justices to administer oaths to Militia Volunteers was remedied; and it was enacted that immediately on their enrolment it should be lawful to drill recruits for a limited period at head-quarters; by which means the adjutant would not only be able to acquaint himself more thoroughly with their appearance, but the men would be much better prepared when they subsequently came up for their twenty-eight days' training. Some doubt having arisen as to whether an order from the Secretary of State was required in every case to determine whether deserters should be tried summarily before a justice of the peace or by a court-martial, it was provided by this Bill that they might in future be tried summarily by a justice in every case, unless where the Secretary of State shall give express directions by regimental court-martial. By the last two clauses of the Bill the principle existing with regard to England was extended to the other portions of the United Kingdom. The quota of Militia for England and Wales was 80,000; but in case of invasion that force might be increased 50 per cent. It was now provided that under similar circumstances the Irish and Scotch contingents might be enlarged in like proportion; but the provision of course would be inoperative except in case of actual invasion. It only remained for him to state that most of these alterations in the law relating to the Militia force had been adopted in compliance with recommendations of the Royal Commission of last year, and all of them had been suggested by the inquiries conducted by that Commission. It was the wish of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, to carry out, as far as possible, the views of the Commissioners, and he believed that the changes which the Government had adopted, in accordance with their recommendation, had been attended with beneficial effect. In the condition of the Militia this year a tendency to improvement was exhibited, which led the Government to hope that if it were placed on a proper footing, and left as it ought to be, as a reserve and local force, it would recover from the state of depression which had resulted from the course which had been pursued under circumstances of great difficulty and pressure, and become a really valuable adjunct to the defences of the country.
    Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
    THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, that with respect to the last observation of

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    his noble Friend, he entertained the same hope as to the future of the Militia as did his noble Friend, but he was not sanguine enough to entertain the same confidence. There could be no doubt that the recruiting of the Militia would be much more extensive if the convenience of the different regiments were consulted. No difficulty whatever would have been felt in keeping up the establishment of the Hampshire Artillery Militia, which he had the honour to command, if it had been stationed at Portsmouth, as Sir James Scarlett recommended. But instead of that the regiment was quartered in Wales, and the Lancashire Artillery were taken all the way down to Portsmouth. In time of peace he could not see any necessity for such capricious quartering, and he was quite satisfied that except under circumstances of urgent necessity the contrary was the more judicious course. When regiments were a long way distant from their own part of the country recruiting officers found it impossible to induce the men to join head-quarters.
    VISCOUNT HARDINGEexpressed his satisfaction at the willingness with which the Government were carrying out the recommendations of the Commission. Having been one of its members, he knew the great attention which they had bestowed on all subjects affecting the efficiency of that force, and, in particular, the care with which they had considered the question of whole or partial embodiment. Most of the desertions of which so much had been said were owing, he believed, to the fact that recruiting officers, under the pressure of circumstances, had raised men at a distance from the county to which the corps belonged. He knew of one regiment which had been recruited almost entirely in London; it was therefore not to be wondered at that the men were not forthcoming. The provisions of the Act of last year had tended materially to improve the condition of the Militia, and to render it no longer a merely paper force. He wished to know whether the Government intended to make any increase in the allowances of non-commissioned officers on the permanent staff, which at present were so low that it was almost impossible to induce non-commissioned officers to remain on it.
    After a few words from Viscount MELVILLE,
    THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHcalled attention to the fact that within a short period no less than five Bills had been submitted to Parliament for the improve-
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    ment of the Militia, and thought it would be well if the various Bills could be consolidated.
    EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, the Government had considered the propriety of consolidating these Acts, but it was necessary that amendment should precede consolidation. He was glad to say that it was the intention of the Government to increase the allowances to non-commissioned officers of the permanent staff.
    Motion agreed to.
    Bill read 2a accordingly; and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

  MAYNOOTH COLLEGE BILL.

    SECOND READING.
    THE DUKE OF ARGYLLmoved that the Bill be now read 2a
    VISCOUNT DUNGANNONsaid, he did not intend to oppose the second reading of the Bill; but in Committee he would oppose the second clause, which allowed money to be borrowed for the purpose of repairing the College, on the security of the Consolidated Fund. As the trustees were about to repair the College out of their own funds, he thought that any money that was required to be borrowed, ought to be on the security of their funds.
    THE DUKE OF LEINSTERsupported the Bill. The College buildings had got into a dilapidated condition, as there were no funds from which the repairs could be executed. It was proposed, therefore, to take the funds set apart for the students to repair the buildings; but to authorize them to do so, this Act of Parliament was necessary.
    THE EARL OF MAYOalso opposed the second clause. He had no objection to the main object of the Bill, as explained by the noble Duke.
    THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, the noble Lords opposite were under a misapprehension as to the security on which the money was to be borrowed. It was not the Consolidated Fund, but the annual vote of £30,000 out of the Consolidated Fund, which was to be given as security for the loan. The Bill was merely to give power to borrow money for a temporary occasion, but only to the extent voted by Parliament.
    Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Tuesday next.

  COUNTY CORONERS BILL.

    SECOND READING.
    Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
    LORD CHELMSFORDmoved that the Bill be now read a second time. The measure had come up from the other House, and had been framed in conformity with the recommendations of the Royal Commission. The Bill had a twofold object, it regulated the election of County Cororoners, and also altered the mode of remunerating them. The fees of Coroners were now regulated by the 25th of George II., which provided that when an inquisition was "duly held" by the Coroner, he should receive from the Court of Quarter Sessions the sum of 20 s., and 9d. per mile travelling expenses. By a statute of Henry VIII. the Coroner was liable to a penalty of 40s. if he neglected his duty. The Court of Quarter Sessions had, however, a discretion to determine whether an inquest had been duly held, and regulations had been made, some of which pressed very hardly on Coroners. In some counties a rule was laid down that, unless the Coroner were set in motion by the police, he would not be entitled to his fee. In one county the magistrates had decided that where an inquest was held upon any child, and it appeared that it had been overlaid by its mother or its nurse, the fee should not be allowed. The information received by the Coroner was in many cases derived from non-official sources, often anonymously; and it was most important, in the interest of justice, that he should not be restrained from holding an inquest, because no intimation had been officially given to him. As to the other rule, it offered a sort of premium upon carelessness or worse. It must be admitted, on the other hand, that some Coroners had been in the habit of uselessly intruding themselves into families, and distressing the feelings of those related to the deceased. Coroners were in this predicament; that they were deterred from holding inquests, lest the magistrates should afterwards think they ought not to have been held. The Royal Commissioners, in their Report made in 1858, did full justice to the invidious and unjust position in which Coroners now stood, and recommended that they should be paid by salaries, and not by fees. A clause in the Bill provided that the salary to be paid in future should be calculated upon the average of the fees and emoluments for the previous live years. If the magistrates
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    and the Coroner could not agree, the decision was to be left to the Home Secretary. There was some danger that, in the absence of the former stimulus to activity, the Coroner might neglect his duty; and a clause had been introduced upon this point which would require some consideration in Committee. The noble and learned Lord concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill.
    Moved, that the Bill be now read 2a.
    THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he much approved the change proposed to be made in the payment of Coroners. When he had the honour to hold the office of Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench frequent complaints were made to him of Coroners holding inquests unnecessarily, and still more of justices refusing to pay them. It could not be doubted that in cases where there was not the slightest suspicion of a violent death Coroners had held inquests which had violated the feelings of the survivors. This practice ought to be checked. The clause referred to by his noble and learned Friend would, he thought, be found to require amendment in Committee.
    THE EARL OF POWISthought, under Clause 4, the expenses of counties would be increased, as Coroners were to receive a salary founded on the average of the last five years. He thought it objectionable that the salaries of Coroners should be changed every five years. It would be well to extend the term for revision to ten years. Such constant changes would do away with the benefit derivable from paying Coroners by a fixed salary, instead of by fees.
    VISCOUNT DUNGANNONobserved, that most inefficient persons were often appointed to the office of Coroner; and he had himself witnessed a case in which a Coroner was unable to sum up the evidence in a case of homicide and point out to the jury the distinction between murder and manslaughter. He thought it would be better if the Coroners were elected by the magistrates of the counties rather than by the freeholders generally. Payment by salary would, he thought, be far preferable to payment by fees. He should support the second reading.
    THE LORD CHANCELLORobserved that Coroners from the most ancient times, from the period of the Conquest, were elected by the freeholders, and he should certainly object to take the franchise from them.
    Motion agreed to.
    Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Monday next.
    House adjourned at a Quarter-past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.