Lords Sitting of 26 July 1860

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Turnpike Acts Continuance; Maynooth College; Bank of Ireland (No. 2.); Weights and Measures (Ireland); Police and Towns Improvement (Scotland) Act Amendment; Stipendiary Magistrates; Local Government Act (1858) Amendment; Sheriff Court Houses (Scotland); County Coroners; Metropolitan Police Force (Dockyards).
2a Highways (South Wales); Prisons (Scotland); Tenure and Improvement of Land (Ireland); Conjugal Rights (Scotland); Manchester Cathedral Church; Postage (Army and Navy); Party Emblems (Ireland); Medical Act (1858) Amendment; Highway Rates Act Continuance.
3a Census (Ireland); Census (England); Tithe Commutation; Oxford University (No. 2.)

ADMIRALTY COURTS JURISDICTION BILL.

  ORDER, FOR COMMITTEE DISCHARGED.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that on Friday last their Lordships made an Order that the House be put into a Committee on the Admiralty Court Jurisdiction Bill on Friday next. The Bill contained many valuable provisions for improving the jurisdiction of the Court of Admiralty; but it also contained money clauses which their Lordships could not touch without infringing on the privileges of the House of Commons. As the Bill certainly required Amendment in some particulars, he thought the better plan would be to withdraw it, and to present it in an unobjectionable form next year without interfering with the privileges of the House of Commons.
  LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he regretted that the Bill would be withdrawn, as it was calculated to effect a very important and salutary Amendment of the law as regarded the Admiralty Courts. At the same time, he denied altogether that the House was not entitled to send down to the House of Commons Bills in whatever shape they pleased, even as to money clauses. He admitted that it would be highly unconstitutional for their Lordships to interfere with what were the understood privileges of the other House as confirmed by precedent; but it was open for

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  either House to pass Bills containing money clauses, leaving it to the other House to adopt or reject them.
  After a few words from Lord CRANWORTH,
  Order discharged.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  Resolved,
  "That To-morrow the Bills which arc entered for Consideration on the Minutes of the Day shall have the same Precedence which Bills have on Tuesdays and Thursdays."

TENURE AND IMPROVEMENT OF LAND (IRELAND) BILL.—SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
EARL GRANVILLEmoved the second reading of this Bill, which he thought was calculated to afford facilities for the improvement of landed property in Ireland. Power was given, in cases where the improvement was of a permanent character, to charge the estate with annuities, terminable in twenty-five years, and there were, likewise, clauses providing for cases in which an improving tenant might give notice of his intention to expend money on the lands.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
LORD MONTEAGLEthought that more harm than good would be done by precipitate legislation on this subject, and hoped, therefore, that the Government would postpone the next stage of the Bill for some little time.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the Government were desirous that a Bill on this subject should pass this Session, but at the same time, they wished to give every opportunity for considering the clauses of the present measure, and he had no objection to postpone the Committee until next Thursday.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, he had no desire to obstruct the progress of this measure, there was another Bill relating to this subject in the other House, which he hoped would come up to their Lordships' House in time to be taken into consideration with this Bill. He concurred in the general objects of this Bill, though he had some doubts as to the machinery. He could see no particular value in the provision which required leases to be submitted to the preliminary approval of the Chairmen of Quarter Sessions, and in some cases to the Landed Estates Court. There were also other points with regard to
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which he should probably feel it necessary to move Amendments when the Bill was in Committee.
THE MARQUESS OF BATHobjected to the third portion of the Bill, but would not oppose the second reading. He doubted very much whether this measure, if it passed, would settle the long-continued controversy of tenant right in Ireland, or put a stop to the agitation on the subject; and so far its effects might be said to be mischievous. Still he did not feel called upon to oppose it.
VISCOUNT DUNGANNONobjected to the Bill that it prevented the Irish landlord from exercising that control over his property to which he was justly entitled. He did not see why the law in Ireland should be different to what it was in England. If the measure were passed it would inflict gross injustice; for if ever there was a proposal fraught with injustice it was this. Although he felt thus strongly upon the subject he would not trouble their Lordships to divide; but upon going into Committee he should give his support to the Amendments indicated by the noble Earl (the Earl of Donoughmore).
THE LORD CHANCELLORwas sorry to find that there was any difference of opinion amongst their Lordships upon the merits of the Bill, which had received the approval of both sides in the House of Commons, and passed that House almost unanimously. If the noble Viscount who had just spoken had taken the trouble of examining the Bill, he would have seen that it did not commit the injustice of which he complained; for nothing could be done under the Bill without the consent of the landlord, and if the landlord consented, then volenti non fit injuria.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURYthought that the period of notice to be given to the landlord, when improvements were sought to be made at his expense, was not sufficient.
THE EARL OF LUCANsaid, that if this legislation were proper at all the Bill should not be confined to Ireland, but should be extended to the whole United Kingdom.
THE EARL OF MAYOsaid, he appealed to English landlords whether they would like to be interfered with by a measure of the sort. As an old landlord, he could take upon himself to say that as a rule tenants did not like leases. He would not move that the Bill be read that day three months, but he trusted that in Committee

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it would undergo material alteration and improvement.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the simple answer to the question why the Bill was not made applicable to England as well as to Ireland was, that the circumstances of the two countries were entirely different. In England farmhouses and buildings were not erected at the sole expense of the tenant, and in Ireland almost every one agreed that an evil did exist, which did not exist in this country, and which this Bill might remedy. He trusted that the noble Earl would give some notice of the Amendments which he intended to propose. As to referring the Bill to a Select Committee, he did not think that that was at all desirable. Being one of those questions in reference to which popular feeling had been very much excited, it was much better that the discussion should take place in their Lordships' House. In regard to the Bill of a kindred nature which was now passing through the House of Commons, he agreed with the noble Earl in hoping that their Lordships would not adhere too strictly to their Resolution as to Bills coming up from the other House, but would make an exception in its favour.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.

CONJUGAL RIGHTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORexplained the objects of the Bill to be, inter alia, to make the Scotch Courts more scrupulous in decreeing divorces, to guard against collusion, and to give married women increased rights in respect to dower and other matters. It also provided that no person should apply to a Scotch Court for a divorce, unless the parties were so domiciled in Scotland as to be under the Scotch law of succession, and that a divorce decreed by a Scotch Court should be operative throughout the United Kingdom. Hitherto, a divorce granted in Scotland was without force in England; and there was a case in which a man having obtained a divorce in Scotland and afterwards married again in England, was tried before an English jury, convicted of bigamy, and sentenced to transportation for life. This state of the law was most alarming to families of great wealth and of great antiquity; and it was
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  most desirable that that state of things should not longer continue. At that time by the law of England marriages were indissoluble; they could only be dissolved by the Legislature. A person might at this moment be entitled to an English earldom and not entitled to his deceased father's Scotch title. The object of the Bill was to assimilate the law in the two countries.
  LORD BROUGHAMsupported the Bill, which was calculated to remove many of the anomalies which existed in the law of the two countries. At present a sentence regularly pronounced in Scotland dissolving a marriage had no effect whatever upon a marriage subsequently contracted in England. He perfectly remembered the case mentioned by his noble and learned Friend, where a person divorced from his English wife in Scotland, returning to England and there intermarrying with another woman, had been found guilty of felony, sentenced to transportation for life, and actually in part underwent the punishment, thus paying in his own person the penalty of the conflict of law between the two countries. Not only so, but the issue of the second marriage, if there had been any, would have been held to be illegitimate in England, although in Scotland they would have been as legitimate as any one of their Lordships. A man might be legitimate in Scotland but bastard in England—legitimate if he claimed in England personal property, illegitimate if be claimed landed property. All these anomalies were sought to be removed by the provisions of this Bill. He thought it a great improvement to have the interposition of the Lord Advocate for the purpose of preventing fraud and collusion.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he thought it a most unfortunate thing there should be such a difference in the law of the two countries; but he did not think it a desirable change to introduce into the law, by which a person in England might go to Scotland and by domicile there obtain a divorce on very different terms from what obtained in England.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Monday next.

FELONY AND MISDEMEANOUR BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order).
LORD WENSLEYDALEsaid, he entertained grave objections to the additional

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speeches which it was proposed to allow to counsel. The occasions he thought must be of rare occurrence where the effect could be beneficial, while a great waste of time must necessarily ensue. He therefore begged to move the insertion of the words "if the said Judge shall think the Evidence requires to be commented on."
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he by no means approved the proposed Amendment, but, remembering that the 12th of August was near at hand, that other things betokened the approach of the end of the Session, and that both in that House and elsewhere the formidable body of Chairmen of Quarter Sessions was largely represented, and that the insertion of such a clause would facilitate the passing of the Bill, he was disposed to waive his private opinion and to consent to the noble and learned Lord's proposal, in the belief that he was thereby improving the administration of criminal justice.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he thought it was casting on the Judge a very invidious duty, and one which in most cases he would be slow in undertaking, to require him to decide whether a particular speech ought or ought not to be made.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the Bill would operate unfairly in the case of a prisoner who was undefended by counsel, but who called witnesses in his own behalf. The prosecutor would thereby be entitled to a speech in reply, in addition to that made in opening the case, although no one had addressed the jury for the defence. In cases where there were more prisoners than one, only one having obtained the benefit of legal assistance, the injustice would be even more apparent.
LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, it very rarely happened that prisoners who were undefended by counsel produced witnesses in their own behalf. In nine cases out of ten no evidence whatever was given for the defence, and therefore there would be very few cases to which the objection would apply.
Amendments made: The Report thereof to be received To-morrow.

THE CONVICT ESTABLISHMENT AT BERMUDA.
THE EARL OF CARNARVONrose to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to a recent statement in the Bermuda Convict Establishment Report, 1860,
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page 15, by the chaplain, as to the condition of the convicts. In every other part of the British Empire the system of hulks had been abolished, but it was retained at Bermuda. All persons who had turned their attention to the subject said that, from want of space, and other causes it was perfectly impossible to exercise a supervision over the convicts, and to enforce discipline among them on board of hulks. By the last Returns, of 1,500 convicts in confinement at Bermuda, two-thirds were confined in hulks. The effect of this on the prisoners would be best described by quoting a passage from the Report of the Chaplain. The rev. gentleman said:—
"It is my painful conviction, after some years' experience of the matter, that the great majority of the prisoners confined in the hulks become incurably corrupted, and that they leave them, in most cases, more reckless and hardened in sin than they were upon reception."
He then went on to describe convict life between decks in this very strong language:—
"Few are aware of the extent of suffering to which a prisoner is exposed on board the hulks, or the horrible nature of the associations by which he is surrounded. There is no safety for life, no supervision over the bad, no protection to the good. The hulks are unfit for a tropical climate. They are productive of sins of such foul impurity and unnatural crime that one even shudders to mention them. In the close and stifling nights of summer the heat between decks is so oppressive as to make the stench intolerable, and to cause the miserable inmates frequently to strip off every vestige of clothing and gasp at the port-holes for a breath of air. A mob law, and tyranny of the strong over the weak, exists below, which makes the well-disposed live in constant misery and terror; and when the passions of these lawless and desperate men are excited by quarrels among themselves the most deadly and murderous affrays are the consequence. The spectacle on board the Medway hulk upon the 1st of June last, when one prisoner was slain and twenty-four desperately wounded, would have appalled any humane heart. The hulk was a perfect shambles, and a frightful scene of uproar, excitement, and bloodshed. Suffice it to say, that a mere handful of warders was powerless to deal with the armed mob below decks. All that could be done was to fasten down the hatches, and when the work of butchery and carnage was over descend below to fetch up the dead and wounded."
It was not too much to say that if this statement were true the Bermuda hulks were practically a repetition of Norfolk Island and all its abominations. He was for punishing criminals as severely as their crimes merited, but the State was not justified in treating them in such a manner that when they went out into the world

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again they were infinitely more depraved than before. It might be doubted whether the Chaplain's feelings had led him to over-colour this picture, but he was afraid that was not the case. The mere fact of the existence of the hulks was very much in favour of his statement, and its accuracy was confirmed too by the very significant words with which the medical officer concluded his Report:—
"Permit me, in conclusion, to state, there are many subjects connected with the well-being of the convict establishment, of which I could wish to make some observations, but decline doing so, as it would doubtless be considered unbecoming in me to extend my remarks to subjects not affecting my own department."
He observed that last year there were not less than 1,200 prison offences committed, and that alone augured an unwholesome and unsatisfactory state of things. It was stated that the accommodation for the officers was so miserably bad that they were constantly resigning; that fourteen officers were crowded in a room thirty feet long by thirty feet wide; and that the changes by resignations prevented their becoming acquainted with the individual habits of the convicts under their charge. The Governor was absent when the Chaplain's Report was sent off, but his locum tenens accompanied the Report with the comment that he did not see any good reason why the conduct of the men at the hulks should be worse than in a prison on shore. If it were not worse it would be contrary to all experience. The Governor, after his return to the island, wrote a despatch, in which he said he had read the Chaplain's report with astonishment, and that he hoped he had been enormously imposed upon by the accounts of the prisoners. He feared that, if there had been any imposition, the Governor, and not the Chaplain, had been the subject of it. He trusted that Her Majesty's Government would order the most searching inquiry, and that, if the Chaplain's account proved correct, no consideration would deter them from dealing summarily with the matter, and, if necessary, abolishing the hulks.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the Governor of the island had expressed a doubt about the accuracy of the statements contained in that Report, while at the same time he paid a high tribute to the merits of the Chaplain. Steps had been taken for the purpose of obtaining further information upon the subject, but no answer had as yet been received to the inquiries which were made.

VOLUNTEER CORPS.—ADJUTANTS AND SERJEANTS.—QUESTION.
EARL FORTESCUEsaid, he was sure he need make no preliminary statement to ensure their Lordships' favourable consideration to anything that concerned the great Volunteer defensive force which the free spirit of the country had within the last twelve months raised throughout the length and breadth of the land, and that as little was necessary to obtain the consideration of his noble Friend the Under Secretary of State for War (Earl de Grey and Ripon), upon whom devolved the official labour of regulating and organizing that force, and who had won golden opinions by his courtesy, ability, and zeal. The Government had directed the formation of the Volunteers into battalions, and with the view of establishing an uniform system of drill, had appointed adjutants with pay and allowances of 10 s. per day. Now this he believed to be a very fair remuneration for the adjutants of town corps; but in the rural districts, where the corps were separated by long intervals, and the adjutant had to travel over considerable distances, the use of a horse, and a very good horse too, was absolutely necessary. He trusted therefore that the Government would consent to increase the pay of those officers in the rural districts. He believed also that the appointment of a permanent sergeant to each company would add greatly to the efficiency of the force. These sergeants might be employed as armourers, to take care of the weapons of the Volunteers. The only objection that could be made to granting this boon would be the expense which it involved; but he was informed by one on whose calculations he could rely that the whole increased pay to adjutants and of a permanent sergeant to each company would come to little more than £1 per head annually for the whole force of Volunteers, or a total sum annually of £120,000 to £130,000. The advantages, however, which would be gained would, he was persuaded, afford an ample compensation for such an outlay: which would, in addition, secure the better observance of the regulations for preserving the arms. He begged, therefore, to ask a question of the Under Secretary for War respecting the Pay and Allowances to Adjutants of Administrative Battalions of Rifle Volunteers in rural Districts: also respecting the Grant of a permanent Sergeant to be paid by the Government for each Company of Volunteers?
EARL DE GREY AND RIPONassured their Lordships that Her Majesty's Government took the most anxious interest in the volunteer movement, and were deeply grateful to those whose patriotism and public spirit had led them to come forward, in numbers already amounting to upwards of 130,000, for the purpose of forming an auxiliary force for the defence of the country, which, he had no doubt, would be found, if put to the trial, of the highest value. He must also express his personal thanks to the noble Earl for the handsome, although undeserved manner, in which he had spoken of his services. It was, no doubt, perfectly true that the adjutants of battalions in rural districts, where companies were scattered at considerable distances from each other, incurred much heavier travelling expenses than the adjutants of town battalions, which lay closer together. His right hon. Friend the Secretary for War had already had his attention drawn to the subject, and the propriety of giving increased allowances to adjutants in rural districts was now under consideration. The proposal seemed to him to be a fair one, and he believed it would meet with the favourable consideration of the authorities. He was afraid he could not give an equally satisfactory answer to the second question of the noble Earl. The appointment of a permanent sergeant to each battalion would, as the noble Earl himself admitted, entail an annual expenditure of £130,000. This was not a small item; and, looking to the large amount of our military expenses at the present time, he was afraid he could not hold out any hope that the Government were likely to accede to that request, at least to the largo extent proposed by the noble Earl. It must be borne in mind that the adjutants, who were to superintend the drill of the corps, had only recently been appointed; and it would therefore be premature to appoint permanent drill sergeants till they had had an opportunity of seeing how the adjutant system was working, and the results which it produced. If they were to appoint discharged soldiers as sergeants to the Volunteer corps, they had no power to retain them under martial law, and a man might he a very good soldier when under the strict discipline of the army who might turn out very differently when the only restraint upon him was the occasional supervision of the adjutant. There was, however, one class of Volunteers in whose favour an exception
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might very fairly be made. Their Lordships were aware that the Artillery Corps were provided with instructors; and his right hon. Friend the Secretary for War also proposed to allow a drill sergeant to I each company of mounted Volunteers, who, on account of their limited numbers, were not entitled to an adjutant. The noble Earl gave as a reason for the appointment of permanent sergeants that the regulations as to the custody of the arms would then be better observed. It should be remembered that one of the preliminary conditions upon which the services of the Volunteers were accepted by the Crown was, that each regiment should have a storehouse and keeper of arms for the arms supplied to them. If it were brought to the knowledge of the Government that the regulation of the War Office on that point had not been followed, steps would, of course, be taken to enforce so necessary a provision; and, as they now had inspectors who would visit the corps from time to time, and adjutants who would be constantly looking after them, any irregularity would be quickly detected. He had no doubt, however, that the good feeling of the Volunteers would induce them to adhere to a regulation which they themselves had undertaken to obey when their services were accepted by Her Majesty. In conclusion, he need hardly say that while the Government were desirous of giving every reasonable support to the movement, it was necessary that the force should retain its Volunteer character, and one of the first conditions of its existence was that it should entail no heavy charge upon the public Exchequer.
LORD VIVIANthought the Government were bound to take care that the Volunteer force did not fall off from the want of that pecuniary assistance which in certain cases he believed was indispensable. Whatever might be the good will of the men, a large portion of the force would be lost if the Government refused aid in circumstances where it was required. There were nowhere, for instance, men more loyal, or more willing to give their personal services to their country, than in his own county—Cornwall; but they were not of a class that could afford to provide themselves with clothing, ammunition, targets, drill-sergeants, and so on. The Government and the country were now alive to the reality and excellence of the movement; and he held that the time had arrived when they ought to do something

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more for the Volunteers than heretofore. He recommended that the force should he divided into two classes. The Volunteers in the large towns were fully able to pay their own expenses without any assistance from the Government, and should constitute one class, who should not be tied down to any particular period of service, and who should provide themselves with all that they required, except arms. The second class should consist of Volunteers in the rural districts, who should be bound to serve for a couple of years or so, and should be provided by the Government with drill-sergeants, arms, ammunition, targets, and clothing. In his own county—Cornwall, the Volunteer Force, amounting to about 2,000 or 3,000 men, was entirely maintained by private subscriptions; but he thought that if there were a classification, such as he had suggested, the second class to receive Government assistance, the number would be greatly increased, and the force itself rendered more permanent. He hoped before long the recommendations of his noble Friend would be acted on.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHconcurred much in the apprehension of the noble Baron that they would not be able to maintain by voluntary subscriptions from year to year the whole of the Volunteer Force we now possessed, still less the larger force which it was most desirable should he maintained. Every one who had read the Report on the subject of the National Defences must see the absolute necessity of keeping up this force, inasmuch as, to a very considerable extent, the country must rely on them for the service of the fortifications hereafter to be erected. But he had a little difficulty in going to the Government directly on this subject, and what occurred to him was this—it might be desirable that an Act should pass enabling magistrates at Quarter Sessions to levy a small rate for the purpose of meeting the contingent expenses of adjutants and various other items, which it was almost contrary to reason to expect pecuniary means could be found to satisfy by annual subscriptions. Of course, any Bill to that effect would most strictly limit the purposes to which the rate should be applied, and he believed one halfpenny in the pound would be perfectly sufficient. If that were done, he believed they would be able, not only to give permanence to the force, but extend it.
VISCOUNT HARDINGEsaid, that the companies were so widely scattered, and
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the adjutants had to travel so far, that it would be only fair to give them some assistance in the shape of additional allowance. He thought that the efficiency of the individual companies would very much depend on their having a good sergeant of the Line permanently for drill. In times of excitement people were ready with their subscriptions, but when excitement abated these contributions fell off; he therefore thought it was well worth the consideration of the Government whether it would not be advisable that there should be a permanent sergeant allowed for every company.
VISCOUNT MELVILLEsaid, that the sergeants of the Line were not more than sufficient for the services of the Line regiments, and indeed a commanding officer had complained to him of the great inconvenience his regiment was subjected to in consequence of the withdrawal of the drill sergeants for the services of the Volunteer corps. The system was most injurious to the discipline of the army, and he hoped the suggestion of the noble Earl would be adopted. But he thought it would be still bettor that the Government should encourage the formation of these companies into militia regiments.
VISCOUNT HARDINGEexplained that, in speaking of sergeants of the Line, he had referred to discharged soldiers of good character after ten years' service, and pensioners. He did not mean that the sergeants should be taken away from the Line.
EARL GRANVILLEhad great hopes that the noble spirit which had been exhibited in the Volunteer movement during the last year would not flag; and, if that spirit continued, he did not believe the subscriptions in money would fail. It would, however, take away the whole character of the force if they came to Parliament, year by year, for a large sum to maintain it. On the other hand, he could hardly conceive any proposal more likely to unpopularize the movement than raising a rate for its support; and he therefore thought the most prudent course would be for the Government to confine themselves to the arrangement which had been shadowed out by his noble Friend (Earl de Grey and Ripon).

STORES FOR INDIA.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH,in rising to ask by whose Direction and under

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whose Inspection certain Articles of the Value of between £30,000 and £40,000 of a perishable nature and inferior quality, equal to Fifteen Years' Supply, were sent out to India for the use of the Royal Artillery at Bombay, as mentioned in a letter from the Governor of Bombay, dated 12th of March, 1860, referred to in Mr. Willoughby's Dissent, p. 11, Lords Parliamentary Paper (242), said, that it had, of course, been his duty to road all the various papers which had recently been laid before that and the other House of Parliament on the subject of the very important measure proposed by the Government for extinguishing the local army of India. A few days ago he read, among the last printed papers, the dissent of a great many of the Members of the Council of India against the measure suspending recruiting for the local European army. At the head of it appeared the name of Mr. Willoughby, a gentleman of very great ability, formerly for many years Secretary to the Government of Bombay, and afterwards a Member of the Council of that Presidency. Among other observations that gentleman considered that "under no other system (than the present) can the military expenditure on account of India in this country be effectually checked and controlled, or the tendency sometimes manifested to cast undue charges on the Government of India be resisted." He mentioned that there were many instances in which this had been done, but confined himself to four. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) would confine himself to one. Mr. Willoughby said,—
"We have recently received a remonstrance from the Bombay Government against costly stores being sent out without requisition by the War Department. It appears that perishable articles, chiefly harness of the value of between £30,000 and £10,000, were sent out for the use of the Royal Artillery, equal to fifteen years' supply, for which there was no immediate need. The Inspector General of Magazines and Horses observed,—' He had ascertained that this harness cost three lacs of rupees, exclusive of freight and storage and other incidental expenses, and is in quantity sufficient for fifteen years' supply of the Royal Artillery. The whole of the pommels are more or less moth-eaten, and, unless put into wear, will rapidly deteriorate and become unserviceable. Most of the harness has a soiled appearance, and has every indication of having been made up some years.'"
Now, he understood this was by no means a solitary instance of stores being sent out to India without any requisition from the Indian authorities. He was told—he knew not but he might state it as an absolute
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fact—that the stores sent out without a requisition amounted to considerably more than £1,000,000 in value. He had no recollection of any such system being acted upon during the various periods when he was connected with the Government of India. He believed that on all occasions the practice was to send out stores only on the requisition of the Indian authorities. However, to confirm his own impressions on the subject he had made inquiry, and he found from the very best authority—a gentleman who had been a great many years in the Store Department—that the fact was as he had represented, except only in the case of personal appointments and equipments. Whatever faults the Board of Directors of the East India Company had, and no doubt they had their faults, he must admit that they were most faithful guardians of the public purse of India; they took very good care that no portion of the revenue of India should be misappropriated—that it should all be applied to the purposes of India, and to no other purpose. He did not believe if the Court of Directors had not been superseded by the Secretary of State for India and his Council that the transaction to which he had referred could have happened. The noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty (the Duke of Somerset), knew that the Board must be in constant communication with the Ordnance Department, which supplied guns, ammunition, and other stores to Portsmouth, Plymouth, &c, but the Lords of the Admiralty would be in a state of very great excitement and surprise if they found the Ordnance Department sending stores to those ports without orders from the Admiralty. Their Lordships would recollect that two years ago an Act was passed transferring the government of India from the East India Company to the Crown, but that Parliament had, in assenting to the measure, taken special care to keep distinct the treasuries of both countries. It was, indeed, alike contrary to the intention of Parliament and to justice that the revenues of India should be applied to the relief of those of England. But it was evident they were so applied, when stores, which were worthless, which were not asked for or required, and which consisted for the most part of articles made of leather, which was in a special degree of a perishable nature, were palmed off on the Government of India, and charged to their account. He therefore begged to ask by whose direction and under whose in-

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spection certain articles of the value of between £30,000 and £40,000 of a perishable nature and inferior quality, equal to fifteen years' supply, were sent out to India for the use of the Royal Artillery at Bombay, as mentioned in a letter from the Governor of Bombay, dated the 12th of March, 1860, referred to in Mr. Willoughby's dissent, page 11, Lords' Parliamentary Paper (242)?
EARL DE GBEY AND RIPONsaid, he desired to express his entire concurrence in the general principle laid down by the noble Earl, that it was undesirable that stores of any description should be sent out to India except upon the requisition of the authorities in that country. He could not, however, assent to the statement that stores could not, under the rule of the East India Company, be sent out to India without a requisition, and that the practice was one which had sprung into existence since the administration of Indian affairs had been confided to the hands of a Secretary of State; for, so far as he could trace the circumstances to which the question of the noble Earl related, they had taken place when the Court of Directors was yet in existence, and at a date prior to that at which the change of Government was effected. When his attention was first drawn to the dissent of Mr. Willoughby he was at a loss to understand to what particular issue of stores the passage on which the noble Earl's question was based referred; but when he saw that the report had been made by the Inspector of stores at Bombay—a responsible officer, who had ample opportunity of obtaining information on the subject—and when he found the charge contained in that report adopted by Mr. Willoughby, a Member of the Indian Council, who, he was bound to suppose, from his official position, had taken the necessary pains to test its accuracy, although he had made no inquiries at the War Department—he had deemed it to be his duty to institute the closest search at the War Office into the matter. Having done so he found that the charge could only relate to the issue of harness to batteries six and seven of Artillery, which were despatched to India in 1857 during the period of the mutiny and were originally intended to serve as garrison artillery, and were not, therefore, provided with saddlery. In the course of that year it was found necessary to send out to them saddlery and harness for field
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equipments; and immediately afterwards a duplicate set of harness was despatched for those and other batteries in India, in consequence of representations made by officers of Artillery; but he was bound to admit that in the particular case of this duplicate set—and it should be borne in mind the transaction had taken place before the present Government came into office—he had not been able to discover that any requisition for it had been received from the Indian Government. An irregularity, therefore, might have been in that instance committed; but inasmuch as the mutiny was raging at the time it could hardly be regarded as so great an irregularity as if it were to occur at the present day. These stores were despatched at the time when Lord Panmure was Secretary for War, who, he believed, was in constant communication with the Chairman of the East India Company, and it was possible, and probable, that if these issues were not officially recommended, they were made at the instance of the Court of Directors, and for the purposes of the war. The noble Earl was then understood to say that subsequently, in July, 1858, a requisition for harness for batteries K and Y had been made; that the requisition was referred to the India Office, and that a memorandum had been sent back in reply to the effect that the Council of India were unable to give any opinion on the subject, and that it was desirable the War Department and the Military authorities should send out such stores as they thought fit, which had accordingly been very properly issued on the responsibility of the Secretary for War. That was the entire extent to which, so far as he was aware, harness had been despatched to those batteries, and he was therefore unable to understand what the inspector of stores at Bombay meant by stating that a quantity sufficient to supply the Royal Artillery for fifteen years had been sent out; for, suppose the first issue lasted four years—which was a reasonable time—and the duplicate issue four years more, the whole amount would fall very far short of a fifteen years' supply. It was, moreover, absurd to enter into such calculations in the case of an army in the field, whose stores might be destroyed in the course of a single action. With respect to the serious allegation contained in the report of the inspector of stores as to the condition of the harness, the only answer he could give to it at the present moment—inasmuch as the matter had only

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just been brought under his notice—was that he had the assurance of the storekeeper at "Woolwich that the harness in question was of the best description, and that that which had been sent out without any requisition was perfectly new.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHasked the noble Earl if he would have any objection to grant the particular papers on which the statement of Mr. Willoughby was founded. He understood the noble Earl to say that it was founded on two letters of the Government of Bombay, one dated the 25th February last, and the other the 12th March last, which, with their enclosures, containing of course the report of the Inspector of magazines and stores, were sent by the Secretary for India to the Secretary for War on the 12th of May; and therefore it was to him a matter of very great surprise that it should have only now, for the first time, come to the knowledge of the War Department. There might be some mistake, but, as he (the Earl of Ellenborough) was informed, those letters were sent on the 12th of May to the "War Department, although that was two months and a half ago, and he had heard it stated—and, indeed, it seemed probable under the circumstances—that no reply had been sent to those letters. He, therefore, supposed that they had been mislaid. He wished to know whether the noble Earl had any objection to his moving for the letters and their enclosures.
EAEL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, that the letters were addressed to the India Board, and of course he was unable to answer for that Department; but if the noble Earl would repeat his question tomorrow (Friday) he would be able to say whether there was any objection to the production of the letters. The whole subject of the arrangements with regard to stores, between the India Office and the War Department had been under the consideration of the Government, and recently, a Committee, consisting of officers of the two Departments, had been sitting upon the matter, and had drawn up a Report, making certain recommendations, which he trusted would prevent the possibility of any error arising again, such as the noble Earl had alluded to.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he would move for the papers on Tuesday-next.
House adjourned at Half-past Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, Half-past Ten o'clock.