Lords Sitting of 13 July 1860

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Registration of Births, &c., (Scotland); Tramways (Ireland);
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Annuity Tax Abolition (Edinburgh and Montrose), &c.
2a Labourers Cottages (Scotland.)
3a Ionian Islands (Marriages); Railway Cheap Trains, &c.; Phœnix Park; Tenison's Charity; Local Government Supplemental.

ITALY.—THE ROMAN STATES.
THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBYsaid, he had given notice that he would move for certain papers additional to the despatches which had been produced from Mr. Lyons with regard to the condition of the Roman States. He was happy to take that opportunity to state that during the whole of the three years during which he had been in official communication with Mr. Lyons, there was the most complete concurrence between them on all subjects connected with the affairs of Italy, and he regretted that his promotion elsewhere had prevented Italy from having in the present crisis the benefit of his ability and experience. On a former occasion he had taken an opportunity to express his high sense of the merits of Mr. Odo Russell, and he was sure that gentleman would be the first to admit the great advantage he would now derive from having the benefit of Mr. Lyons' experience. These despatches when produced would show the efforts that had been made by Mr. Lyons and himself to induce the Papal Government to institute reforms: but their efforts were often frustrated by the conduct of others. On one occasion, in particular, there occurred an incident that ought to be known. Mr. Lyons had received some conciliatory instructions from Lord Clarendon, and he was making use of them to induce the Roman Government to institute some reform in their mode of government, when there arrived the account of a public declaration made by the highest Ministerial authority in the other House of Parliament, to the effect that the Roman States had never been so well governed as under the republic of Mazzini. Their Lordships could not conceive the painful effect that this declaration produced on the Papal Government. He was himself at that moment engaged with a person of high influence at the Court of Rome, endeavouring to persuade him to introduce that reform which he hoped the Roman people were now about to enjoy—the right of a deliberative council; but that Gentleman said, "How is it possible for us to institute reforms when we are told from your Parliament that the Government we ought to imitate is a Govern-

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ment that in our eyes was the impersonation of anarchy, a Government in which neither life nor property was secure?" Under these circumstances he thought it necessary to address a further despatch to the Government, stating the painful impression which this declaration had made, and communicating what he had ascertain-ed as to the real facts of the case, to show the inaccuracy of the statements that had been made in the other House of Parliament. This was one of the despatches which he hoped the Government would not object to produce. His Motion would be for, Copies or Extracts from the Despatches of Her Majesty's Minister in Tuscany in 1855, 1356, and 1857, referring to the Condition and Administration of the Roman States.

SCOTTISH DRAINAGE AND IMPROVEMENT COMPANY BILL.

  THIRD READING.—BILL PASSED.
  LORD REDESDALE LORD REDESDALE moved, that this Bill (which is a private Bill), be read 3a.
  LORD ST. LEONARDSremarking on the exclusive advantages which these companies obtained by private Acts of Parliament, suggested that a general Act ought to be passed, and expressed a hope that with that object the Government would early next Session give the subject their serious consideration.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYthought it very desirable that when lending powers of this kind were given to a company there should be some independent tribunal established to see that the money advanced was expended on a bonâ fide improvement. The question ought to form the subject of general legislation. It was very desirable, too, that some system should be adopted with regard to these private Bills which would bring them more particularly under the notice of the House, requiring them, for instance, to go through a Committee of the whole House.
  LORD REDESDALEdid not think that any good would be derived from treating these Bills in a different manner from other private Bills. It would be much better that the subject should be dealt with by a general law.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the subject should be taken into consideration by the Government, but, of course, he could not give a pledge that they would take any action upon it.
  THE EARL OF DERBYthought it most
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  objectionable that any lending or borrowing powers beyond those of the ordinary law should form part of a private Bill. If legislation were necessary, it should be in the shape of a general measure. He had strong objections to the Bill, though he could not take upon himself the responsibility of moving its rejection; but if there were a distinct understanding that the Government and the House would for the future set their faces against the introduction of such Bills some good would have been done by the present discussion.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHshared the opinion of the noble Earl that this matter should be dealt with in a general measure.
  LORD ST. LEONARDSproposed that the consideration of the present and another similar Bill should be postponed for a fortnight.
  THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHexplained that the Scottish Drainage and Improvement Company had been in existence for some time, and that it now sought merely to be placed in the same position as another company of the same kind in Scotland. He deprecated the maintenance of a monopoly, and opposed the Motion for postponement.
  LORD ST. LEONARDS LORD ST. LEONARDS moved, That the further Debate be adjourned to Friday next.
  On Question, That the said Debate be adjourned to Friday next? their Lordships divided:—Contents 36; Not-Contents 39: Majority 3.
  Resolved in the negative: Then the original Motion was agreed to: Bill read 3a accordingly: an Amendment made: Bill passed and sent to the Commons.

  GALWAY HARBOUR BILL.
  THIRD READING.
  Bill read 3a, with the Amendments.
  On Motion that the Bill do pass.
  THE MARQUIS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees had, in the exercise of his functions, struck out of the Bill two clauses which were of considerable importance. This made it necessary for him (the Marquess of Clanricarde) to take what was a rather inconvenient course. He might observe that the step taken by the Government of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) in granting a subsidy to a line of packets between Galway and America bad already been attended with very important results. Two years ago there

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  was not a single steam packet running between Ireland and America. At the present moment Sir C. Cunard's Transatlantic mail steamers called at one of the southern ports of Ireland; the Canadian Company's called at one of the northern; and there was this Galway line: so that Ireland was now practically recognized as the portion of the United Kingdom from which the packets employed in speedy communication between Europe and America should depart. The Bill before their Lordships was to improve the harbour of Galway; it proposed that a sum of £180,000 should be raised; part of this sum was to be applied to the payment of existing charges, and the remainder to the making of a pier and breakwater in Galway Harbour, and for other works in connection therewith. It was intended in the first place that the tolls on the harbour should be charged with the payment of this money; next that it should be raised off the property in the immediate neighbourhood; and, as a last resource, that a limited rate should be imposed upon the county. Now as the harbour was a benefit to the county as well as the town, such a mode of securing the money was not improper, though he admitted that that course should be adopted with great caution; moreover, the course was not without precedent. Taunts had been often thrown out that whenever an effort was made for the improvement of Ireland it was always at the expense of English capital; but this was now refuted in the case of Galway, which only sought powers to tax itself for a purpose that he believed would prove beneficial to the commerce of the United Kingdom. Not a word of any opposition to this Bill had they heard until last week, and this fact was the more extraordinary, inasmuch as the objects of the measure had been generally approved of. He was, therefore, extremely surprised to find that the Select Committee had struck out of the measure a clause which imposed upon the county Galway a guarantee for a large sum of money for the improvement of the harbour. He begged, therefore, to move that the clauses which had been struck out should be reinstated.
  Amendment moved, in Preamble after ("Galway") to insert ("and county of Galway respectively").
  THE EARL OF LUCANhoped the House would reject the Amendment of the noble Marquess. The Chairman of the Select Committee had acted very wisely in striking out the clause in the Bill which de-
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  volved on the county of Galway the guaranteeing of a large sum of money for the improvement of the harbour, and had shown a wise discretion in declaring that the charge should not extend beyond the town. Under the Bill it was proposed to raise £180,000, of which £25,000 were to be applied in the payment of debts, and £100,000 were to be expended on a pier, breakwater, and graving docks—he wondered it was not for building ships. He believed that such a proposition was altogether without precedent. No doubt small sums had been expended on the repairs of fishing harbours under the Grand Jury Act, but that case did not afford a parallel to the present, in which a great national harbour was concerned. He believed it was the general wish of the landed proprietors of the county that the proposition of the noble Marquess should not be adopted. If the Amendment were agreed to, the result would be to impose a permanent charge of £1,700 a year upon the county funds.
  LORD MONTEAGLEconcurred with the noble Earl that this was the first time any proposition had been submitted to Parliament to impose a guarantee upon a county for works undertaken by local companies only, without any recommendation from the Board of Works in Ireland. He should oppose the Amendment. At the present moment the very existence of the packet station was at stake. Already £120,000 had disappeared in connection with Galway harbour, and the House was now called on to decide without a security as to the utility of the plans, or as to whether the harbour would be available for the purpose. He thought it would be better to suspend the further progress of the Bill until they had the plans and reports of competent engineers, and not allow £180,000, constituting a permanent fund, to be saddled on the country. If we were to have the American trade it was highly important there should be a proper packet station at Galway.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he had always felt it to be his duty not to allow a new principle to be introduced in private in legislation without it was a very sound one, or without its being the sanction of the House. The principle proposed in the present Bill was entirely a new one that of taxing a county for the improvement of a local harbour, and if adopted might be drawn into a precedent in numberless cases, to the injury of pri-

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  vate enterprise; and he thought the principle of guarantees in such cases was altogether objectionable. He had seen too much of the manner in which grand juries in Ireland would vote taxation in the shape of these guarantees to be very well satisfied with the prospect of an extension of it. In this case there was no security that the money proposed to be raised would be sufficient to complete the work, so that the county might be saddled to an indefinite extent.
  EARL GRANVILLEwas inclined to think that, when a district came forward ready to take the expense of an improvement on itself, instead of asking for public money, it was a principle he thought that ought to be encouraged rather than discouraged.
  On Question, Whether the said words shall be there inserted? their Lordships divided:—Contents 18; Not-Contents 26: Majority 8. Amendment disagreed to; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
  House adjourned at a Half-past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.