THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBYsaid, he wished to call the attention of his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) to the impression that was made, adverse to some highly respectable persons, friends of his own, by the disparaging tone in which his noble and learned Friend spoke the other evening of some correspondence that had been addressed to him by certain gentlemen in Florence. How did that correspondence originate, and what was its nature? It was conveyed to him by persons in whom he could place as much reliance as he could in any one in this House or in his noble and learned Friend himself, and it related to the acts and proceedings of the Provisional Government in Tuscany—a Provisional Government which was supported and nursed mainly by the action of the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs. That Government had gagged the press so that not one word was allowed to appear in public except what was favourable to the acts of Baron Ricasoli, and therefore his correspondents were compelled to transmit their statements to him in order that they might be read in the House of Lords. But now the Provisional Government was at an end; and what had since happened? In a newspaper, which had been started by the most eminent men in Florence within the last six weeks, all the statements of his correspondents with regard to the misdeeds, the duplicity, the tyranny of the Provisional Government were fully substantiated. Had the Government denied the facts? On the contrary, after a vain attempt to suppress the paper, they bought up the printer and the other printers in the town to refuse to print it. But here, too, he 1609 was glad to say they failed; so that the newspaper which contained this exposé of the deeds of the Provisional Government, after having been suspended for ten days, was now in such credit that it was published daily instead of, as at first, three times a week. The result, then, of the discredit which had been attached to the statements of his correspondents was that they were substantiated in a newspaper published by some of the first men in Florence. He might also state that he had foreseen, and had warned the House from the beginning, that the only result of our interference in Tuscan affairs would be the strengthening of the Mazzini party. That party was now growing stronger and bolder than ever, and the last account he had received from Florence was that no fewer than three barricade committees had been formed in that town. Discredit had also been thrown on some statements he made on the authority of the French newspapers with respect to atrocities committed in Sicily; but these statements were confirmed the day after he made them by the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, though he said the acts were not traced to General Garibaldi. Now, he never said that these outrages were the acts of the Government or that they were the acts of persons acting under the Government. But what he said, and what he would repeat was, that when the regular Government was suspended, then every person acting at all was acting under the authority of General Garibaldi; and he did not think when a person assumed responsibility such as General Garibaldi had done, and great atrocities were committed, it was enough to say that the reports of the British Admiral on the station were to the effect that Garibaldi was perfectly humane and moderate. He never meant to dispute that, for he knew nothing on the subject, but Garibaldi ought not to put himself in a situation of such responsibility if he could not prevent the crimes that were committed by those under him. It was unnecessary to assure his noble and learned Friend that he did not mean to bring any charge against him, but he thought this explanation was due to those respectable persons who had corresponded with him, and whose statements, though they had been discredited at first, were now so completely substantiated.
LORD BROUGHAM—I am sure my noble Friend and the House will acquit me in anything which I said from intend- 1610 ing to cast even the slightest imputation on my noble Friend himself. Correspondence undoubtedly means letters received as well as sent; and when I described the very small value which I attached to the correspondence of my noble Friend I meant letters which he had received, and not letters which he had sent. Of those I had no means of judging, except from my entire confidence in my noble Friend, and whatever statements were conveyed in those I am quite certain would be accurate. The value which I attached to the letters containing the details referred to by the noble Marquess was certainly of the very smallest, and nothing which has now fallen from my noble Friend has inclined me to raise that estimate. My information from Florence is diametrically opposed to that of my noble Friend—though I have no doubt whatever that he will attach as little value to my correspondence as I have attached to his. I believe that the Government of Florence is not subject to the imputations cast upon it by the correspondents of my noble Friend, but that it is perfectly free from those charges. As to that celebrated individual—not more celebrated than he deserves—General Garibaldi, I am exceedingly glad indeed to hear that my noble Friend does not at all impute to him those excesses which he says have been committed in the course of the revolutionary proceedings which have taken place in Sicily. However, I did not quite so understand my noble Friend on a former occasion, and to-night I thought that, if he did not actually quite charge these excesses upon General Garibaldi, he more than insinuated that he is answerable for them. I suppose my noble Friend means that a man who is in supreme power is answerable for everything which is done during his dictatorship; but in no other sense can General Garibaldi be answerable for any of those offences to which reference has been made. My noble Friend seems to be under the impression that the Secretary of State admitted those excesses the other night in the other House of Parliament, and also that General Garibaldi had something to do with them; but my belief is that he peremptorily denied it, as I do now upon his authority and upon the authority of all others who have any knowledge of the matter. There is no cause known in history which has met with more universal acceptance than the cause of the Sicilians, with General Garibaldi at their head, against the tyrant of Sicily and his 1611 emissaries, whether in the shape of sbirri or soldiers—the soldiers, I verily believe, but for a season about to remain in allegiance to him. I am told there is a constitution about to be imposed, not upon Sicily, for that is out of the question, but upon Naples; in my firm belief, and in my entire and hearty hope and prayer, such constitution will utterly fail to save that detestable tyranny.
THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBYhad never said that General Garibaldi was personally answerable for the outrages that had been committed. What he did say, and what he now repeated, was, that when a man, in violation of the law of nations, assumed absolute power, either in Sicily or elsewhere, he rendered himself responsible for all the outrages that were committed. The noble Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, did not trace those outrages to General Garibaldi personally; but he did not deny that outrages had been committed. One word more as to his correspondents. The noble and learned Lord said, that what he had heard made no difference in the value he imputed to these statements. What, no difference! when he informed him that every word in those statements had been confirmed and repeated in a Liberal newspaper published in Florence? In 1848 his noble and learned Friend spoke strongly against the revotionary spirit; and the other night his noble and learned Friend stated that he did not retract or change one word of what he then said. All he had to say was, that if his noble and learned Friend's opinions were not changed, he had greatly changed his mode of giving expression to them.
LORD BROUGHAMwished to add one word only with regard to General Garibaldi. His noble Friend said that he had proceeded in violation of the law of nations to liberate his fellow-subjects.
LORD BROUGHAMBecause he is an Italian. He could only say that if the law of nations was to be enforced to the perpetual subjugation and misery of nations, the sooner they had as little as possible of the law of nations the better.
LORD WODEHOUSEwished to call attention to one phrase made use of by the noble Marquess, that the noble Lord, the 1612 Foreign Secretary, in the other House, said he could not trace the outrages committed in Sicily to General Garibaldi. That was a phrase which would imply that his noble Friend had a suspicion of General Garibaldi's connivance in those outrages, though there was not sufficient evidence of the fact. His noble Friend's expressions, however, went much further than a denial of any proof that General Garibaldi had connived at those excesses. Not only was there no connivance, but he had done his utmost to prevent them; and by the last intelligence, it appeared that he had recourse to severe measures for that purpose. But when a man was placed in the position of General Garibaldi it was not surprising that he should not be able to prevent the commission of everything of which he disapproved. He certainly deserved the highest credit for the generosity and moderation which he had displayed. It must not be forgotten, too, that if some outrages had been committed in the excitement of a revolution, outrages had been previously committed by the Royal troops, which were perfectly well known to all the world, and which were unsurpassed by anything of which the oppressed people of Sicily had been guilty.