Lords Sitting of 31 January 1860

MINUTES.
Took the Oath.—The Lord Clandeboye. PUBLIC BILLS.—la Transfer of Real Estate.
DILAPIDATIONS OF GLEBE HOUSES.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT DUNGANNONput the Question of which he had given notice, namely, Whether any Bill is proposed to be introduced this Session under the Sanction of the Episcopal Bench to alter and amend the Law relative to Dilapidations on Glebe Houses. The noble Viscount expressed the belief that he should receive an answer
  324
  to the question that would be gratifying to a large portion of the community, more especially the parochial clergy; for beyond all doubt, if ever there were a matter which more than any other loudly called for some alteration and amendment, it was the law upon the subject of dilapidations on glebe houses. He had intended to introduce a measure himself in a former Session; but upon learning that the matter was to be taken into consideration by the right rev. Bench and the two Houses of Convocation, he refrained from doing so. He believed that Convocation and the right rev. Plates did take the question into consideration last year, but that in consequence of the dissolution it had necessarily, with many other important questions, been postponed. But he had reason to believe that the subject had been duly weighed and considered by them since, and that a measure would be introduced this Session that would be calculated to give real satisfaction to the clergy.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYstated, in reply, that during last Session a Bill was in preparation, but owing to the circumstances of that Session an opportunity could not be got of introducing it into Parliament. He had, however, been in communication with his right rev. Brethren on the subject, and could now state with the complete concurrence of three of them, that a measure was actually under consideration, and he hoped in a short time it would be completed and submitted to their Lordships' House.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONexpressed his satisfaction that a Bill was about to be brought forward on this subject. There were some alteration which had occurred to him which he hoped had not escaped the attention of the right rev. Prelates.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he was gratified to hear from the most rev. Prelate that a measure was about to be introduced which had the concurrence of the Episcopal Bench. He thought there would be found difficulties if any attempt' were made to codify the whole law affecting the subject. It seemed to be especially desirable that there should be something more stringent than the present law to require the incumbent to keep his house in repair.
  THE BISHOP OF OXFORDsaid, the difficulty of altering the law on this subject had always been felt to be the interference which it involved with the old English axiom, that "an Englishman's house was

  325
  his castle." The matter had been many years under the consideration of the Episcopal Bench; and it was a happy circumstance at the present moment that the great body of the parochial clergy, by their representatives in the Lower House of Convocation, had agreed fully in the principles that were necessary to remedy the defects of the present law. There was a great objection to anything like inspection; but it was generally admitted that there should be a public officer to examine from time to time, and see what repairs were necessary, and order them to be done, and to receive a yearly sum from the hands of the incumbent. He might, however, state, in order to correct the noble Lord who had just spoken, that the Bill, being in the nature of a- taxing Bill, could not be introduced into their Lordships' House, but must originate in the other House of Parliament.

TRANSFER OF LAND.
  PETITION.

    TRANSFER OF REAL ESTATE BILL.
    FIRST READING.
    LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he had to lay before their Lordships a very important petition from nearly all the magistrates and landowners of the county of Cumberland, praying for an Improvement in the present Law respecting the Transfer of Land. They did not state, as they might have done, that the present Master of the Rolls, when examined before a Select Committee, gave it as his opinion that if that law had been designedly intended to make land an unmarketable commodity it could not have been more complete in its provisions. The petitioners prayed their Lordships to extend to all land of all tenure, freehold and leasehold, but particularly freehold, the custom of copyhold conveyancing which was known in their part of the country, and practised with perfect success. He had also a petition from a very learned Friend of his, a conveyancer of forty years' standing, Mr. Fawcett, who had been for thirty-five of those years steward of one of the greatest manors of the north. He stated his experience of that manor, in which there were about 500 tenements of various descriptions, and some of very considerable value and extent, and he said that during the whole thirty-five years, in which hardly one had not passed at least once, but many several time, by transfers
    326
    will, or mortgage, there had never been a single instance of a dispute raised on any question connected with those transfers of property. The expense of each conveyance was not more than 7s and the length never exceeded 200 words. It was natural that these petitioners should hope and pray that this mode of conveyancing might be extended to all real property held under whatever tenure. He (Lord Brougham) availing himself of Mr. Fawcett's experience, prepared and introduced a Bill on this subject last year and the year before; but it did not go further than its first stage last year. This was very much owing to his learned Friend Sir Hugh Cairns, then the Solicitor General, having introduced a Bill of great value, carefully and elaborately framed, with the same view, and in several respects in nearly to the same effect. There were certain objections urged against that Bill to which his was not liable, but instead of opposing it he thought it well to co-operate with his learned Friend in his effort to amend the law. He (Lord Brougham) had now prepared, in compliance with the prayer of these petitioners the same measure which he before proposed, with certain material alterations, the object of which was to provide the remedies to which Sir H. Cairns' Bill was directed, and some other improvements. Sir Hugh Cairns' Bill established a Land Transfer Court on the footing of the Irish Incumbered Estates Court, but his (Lord Brougham's) measure gave the same powers, under control and with the right of appeal, to local officers in every district throughout the country.
    Petition read and ordered to lie on the Table.
    The noble and learned Lord then presented a Bill touching the Transfer of Real Estate, and for the Registration of the Titles thereof.
    LORD CRANWORTHasked, Whether the Bill which the Government intended to bring forward on the same subject would be introduced in this or the other House of Parliament?
    THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the Attorney General had already announced that he would ask leave to bring in this measure. Many fiscal considerations would arise respecting it, and it was thought more expedient to introduce the Bill in the other House.
    Bill read 1a.
    House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.