Lords Sitting of 30 January 1860

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament.—The Earl of Minto—after the Death of his Father.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1ª Criminal Statutes Repeal; Accessories and Abettors; Malicious Injuries to Property; Coinage Offences; Forgery; Larceny, &c.; Offences against the Person. 2ª Law of Property.

CONSOLIDATION OF STATUTE AND CRIMINAL LAW.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR presented several Bills having for their object the consolidation of the statute and criminal law, and said that, as he had had little share in preparing the measures, he might say without scruple that he could strongly recommend them to their Lordships' favourable regard and consideration. So long ago as 1833, a Commission was appointed with the view of codifying the criminal law; and he joined in the hope that such a proposal was practicable, although he never thought that the whole law could be so codified. The Commissioners were most assiduous in the performance of their duties, and in successive years presented eight Reports, which embraced the whole of the criminal law of England. Before the result of their labours could be presented to Parliament, however, it was thought advisable to have a Commission of revision. Such a Commission, composed of learned men, did sit accordingly, and presented five Reports; and the sanguine hope was entertained that what they recommended might be reduced into Bills and become law. One or two Bills were, therefore, prepared under the superintendence of his noble and learned Friend (Lord St. Leonards) during the time he held the Great Seal, and were introduced by him into this House. One respected the law of offences against the person, and was read a second time, and referred to a Select Committee. He (the Lord Chancellor) had then the honour of being Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench, and attended the meetings of the Committee, which sat eleven days; but at the end of that time it found that it could not agree upon a definition of the crime of murder—a result that was certainly very discouraging. His noble and learned Friend who succeeded to the Great Seal (Lord Crau-worth) consulted the Judges on the general subject; but their opinions were by no means auspicious. If it were, then, impossible to codify one law so as to have the whole
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common and statute law put together in the same way as the Code Napoleon it would, of course, be a great matter to consolidate the statute law. The Statute Law Commission was accordingly appointed, and had been most zealous in performing their duties. Bills had been prepared with that object, and had been submitted to, and had received the approval of Lord Chief Justice Jervis, Mr. Baron Parke, now Lord Wens-leydale, and other most learned men; but various circumstances intervened to prevent their passing into law. The last attempt that was made towards consolidating the law was to assimilate the law of Ireland and the law of England, when Mr. Whiteside, for whom he (the Lord Chancellor) entertained the most sincere respect, not only as a great orator, but a very learned lawyer, laid upon the table of the House of Commons some Bills for that especial purpose. But before those Bills could be considered, a dissolution of Parliament took place. The object of consolidating the statute law, and assimilating in all respects the criminal law of Ireland with the criminal law of England, was a most laudable one; and he thought all their Lordships would agree that it was capable of accomplishment. During the last vacation the law officers in each country had been most assiduous in devoting themselves to the question, and he believed that it was now in a shape fit for legislation He had not read every line in the Bills himself, but he had spent much time in examining them along with the gentlemen employed to prepare them, and he really believed that in their present state they would meet with the approbation of both Houses of Parliament. To show their Lordships the difference which existed between the criminal law in Ireland and in England he might mention that, by the law in Ireland, conspiracy to murder was a capital felony, whilst in England it was only a misdemeanour. He thought, then, that the time had arrived when such anomalies ought to be swept away, and the law made uniform in all parts of the kingdom. If their Lordships would give the Bills a first and second reading, he would then move that they he referred to a Select Committee.
His Lordship then presented the following Bills:—
A Bill to repeal certain Enactments which have been consolidated in several Acts of the present Session relating to indictable Offences and other Matters (Criminal Statutes Repeal Bill.)

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"A Bill to consolidate and amend the Statute Law of England and Ireland relating to Accessories to and Abettors of indictable Offences. (Accessories and Abettors Bill.)
"A Bill to consolidate and amend the Statute Law of England and Ireland relating to malicious Injuries to Property. (Malicious Injuries to Property Bill.)
"A Bill to consolidate and amend the Statute Law of the United Kingdom against Offences relating to the Coin. (Coinage Offences Bill.)
"A Bill to consolidate and amend the Statute Law of England and Ireland relating to indictable Offences by Forgery. (Forgery Bill.)
"A Bill to consolidate and amend the Statute Law of England and Ireland relating to Larceny and other similar Offences. (Larceny, &c. Bill.)
"A Bill to consolidate and amend the Statute Law of England and Ireland relating to Offences against the Person. (Offences against the Person Bill.)"
LORD CRANWORTHsincerely rejoiced at the course which his noble and learned Friend had taken with regard to the assimilation of the Irish statute law with that of England. His noble and learned Friend would do him the justice to recollect that a large portion of that was done when he (Lord Cranworth) had the honour to hold the Great Seal. He would express no opinion with respect to the present Bills, but he did hope that this attempt to assimilate the Irish and English law might not give rise to such discussions in Parliament as would lead to the rejection of the Bill altogether.
The said Bills were then severally read 1ª.

ST. GEORGES'S-IN-THE-EAST.

  QUESTION.
  THE BISHOP OF LONDONwished to put a question to the noble Earl (Earl Granville) with regard to any orders which might have been given by the Government for the preservation of the peace in the parish church of St. George's-in-the-East. His attention had that day been drawn to the fact of a serious riot, threatening danger to property, having taken place in that church last evening; and it must be obvious that it was very desirable that all persons who were likely to take part in such disturbances should be made exactly aware of the steps that were to be taken by the Government to bring the offenders to justice. Whilst the present state of things continued it was almost impossible for the clergy, or for the ecclesiastical authorities generally, to take any steps on their part:—for until the majesty of the law had been vindicated it would seem to be impossible to
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  make any change in the services, even those which were desirable, because, of course, it was not desirable that that which was right in itself should be conceded to violence and to riotous, disorderly clamour. He was bound to say that as the matter then stood nothing could be more unsatisfactory. Some changes had been introduced into the manner of performing service at that church, but they had not as yet met the wishes of the people, who had chosen the present mode of expressing their disapproval of the manner in which the services were performed. It was impossible that anything further could be done while these disorders and riots disgraced the parish night after night. It would be satisfactory, therefore, if the noble Earl could state that the police had received orders to put a stop to these disorderly proceedings. He was bound to say that nothing could exceed the kindness and courtesy with which the authorities at the Home Office had gone into the matter hitherto. Steps had been taken, which it was hoped would have put an end to these disgraceful scenes; but after a time the Home Secretary communicated to him that it was not thought expedient that the presence of the police in a parish church should be continued. It seemed, however, that the right hon. Gentleman's anticipations of peace had not been realized; and it would be satisfactory to know, therefore, what steps he now proposed to take in the matter. He believed that an idea existed that it would be easy to put a stop to these disturbances by refusing admission to any but parishioners into the parish church; but it was very doubtful whether that would be a legal course. He was afraid, also, that if none but parishioners were admitted, many persons would be excluded who were at present desirous of preserving order there; and from all that he could gather many of those who had caused disturbance were themselves residents in the immediate locality of the church. He did not wish to express any opinion as to the original cause of these discontents. That seemed to him to have nothing to do with the present question. The question was simply this—whether disturbances could be allowed to take place in a parish church which would not be tolerated in any other place of worship in the kingdom; and he now earnestly put it to the noble Earl to consider carefully whether such slops could not be taken as would quell those riots for the future. The experience of past times taught that these things were contagious, and the foolish zeal

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  of uninstructed persons, if unrestrained, might lead to the destruction of property, and to the greatest injury not only to religion hut even to the civil welfare of society.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I am not surprised that the right rev. Prelate should address me a question upon a subject so interesting to him and to the public. Your Lordships will all agree that the events which have occurred in this church are a very great scandal. As far as my opinion goes, I must say that I think that the present state of things is not creditable to any of the parties concerned. I am, however, hardly in a position to give an exact answer to the right rev. Prelate, as I have not yet seen the police report of these occurrences made to the Home Office, and only know the facts as they are stated in the morning papers. It may, however, be satisfactory if I state what has been the course of the Government up to the present time in relation to these matters. When these disturbances first occurred, there was a difficulty in ascertaining the law by which magistrates could punish offenders in such cases, and it was found that the only Act giving such power was one of Philip and Mary, respecting which a question arose whether it applied to Protestant churches, it having been originally passed with a view to Catholic churches. It was held that the law applied in the present instance; but there were still difficulties in carrying it into effect. Several parties were brought before the magistrates upon summons; but in a short time the disturbances rose to such a pitch, that a large body of police were ordered to occupy the church; and that state of things lasted for several Sundays. At the end of the year, it having been represented to the Home Secretary that great inconvenience had been experienced from having so large a number of police engaged in that special duty—and it is obvious that it is impossible to maintain as a permanent institution and establishment a large number of policemen in a church for the suppression of such disturbances—and they were accordingly withdrawn. It was thought that during that time there had been ample opportunity for the clergy to make such alterations in the service as would meet the wishes of the congregation, and, on the other hand, for the congregation to cool down in their feelings towards the clergy. Yesterday's proceedings, however, show that that has not been the case. But
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  although the police were not in the church on that occasion, there was a sufficient force in the neighbourhood to clear the church, and to maintain the public peace, and it was by their intervention that the disturbance yesterday was quelled. I am not able to state what particular steps will be taken in future, but I fully admit that it is the bounden duty of the police to preserve the public peace in that parish as elsewhere.

CHURCH RATES.—PETITION.
VISCOUNT DUNGANNONsaid, he had to present to their Lordships a petition of a very important character indeed. It had originated at a very large meeting of the clergy and laity of the rural deanery of Wrexham, in the diocese of St. Asaph, which was presided over by the Archdeacon. In that diocese an association had been formed of clergy and laity for the protection, as far as in them lay, of the interests of the Established Church, and for endeavouring to secure that what ever changes were effected, the Established Church should still remain in its full efficiency and purity. The petitioners suggested that the fact that some hundreds of parishes had refused to pay church rates was no plea whatever for their entire abolition, when so many thousands of parishes did not object to pay them. They stated that they did not propose anything in the nature of a compromise; because it was not a compromise but utter abolition, and the entire overthrow of the Established Church, that the enemies of church rates required. They also suggested for their Lordships' consideration some very important points which they conceived would tend greatly to remove the existing grounds of contention and complaint. They suggested that it would be necessary to have pointed out what was considered indispensable for the performance of Divine service, and properly-chargeable to the church rate. Also, that the law relating to district parishes should be amended. There was much to complain of in this respect. The inhabitants of such parishes not only paid for their district church, but were required also to pay rates for the parish church, which they never frequented; and this called for a legislative remedy. The petitioners suggested further that easy means should be provided for compelling payment of a rate lawfully made. Therefore he felt it to be his duty, not simply to present a petition of this kind,

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which loudly called for consideration, but to do it that justice which the importance of the subject commanded, The noble Viscount then presented a Petition of Clergy and Lay Consultees of Wrexham against the Abolition of Church Rates.
Petition read; and ordered to lie on the table.

CHURCH-RATES.—SELECT COMMITTEE.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, it would be remembered that a Committee of their Lordships' House was appointed last Session to inquire into the operation of the law and practice respecting the assessment and the levy of church rates. On closing their labours last year the Committee recommended that they should be re-appointed, in order to complete the evidence which was forthcoming on the subject. It would be improper for him at present to enter upon any of the subjects there touched upon; but the evidence was of so important a character as fully to justify the re-appointment of the Committee. In submitting a Motion to that effect it was not his wish that the Committee should prolong its labours to an indefinite time, so as to interfere with any decision which might be come to by their Lordships respecting church rates. In a short time the labours of the Committee would be completed, and then their Lordships would have an opportunity of considering its report, and of arriving at a decision upon this much-vexed question. The noble Duke concluded by moving for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the present Operation of the Law and Practice respecting the Assessment and Levy of Church Rates.
Motion agreed to.
Select Committee appointed; and the Lords nominated to serve on the said Committee.
House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow half-past Ten o'clock.