LORD HARRIS, after some prefatory remarks, which were inaudible, asked Her Majesty's Government, according to his notice,—
- "1. Whether in a Treaty which, it is reported, is about to be ratified with France, and by which the Government of that Country will be authorized to appoint Emigration Agents at the Presidency or other Seaport Towns of India for the Purpose of obtaining Agricultural Labourers for the French Colonies, Care has been taken to ensure that the Laws, Rules, and Regulations respecting Emigrants from India to British Colonies at present existing, or as they may hereafter be modified, shall be fully enforced; and if so, by what means?
- "2. Whether Power has been retained to the Government of India temporarily to stop such Emigration should there be reason to suppose that the above Conditions had not been complied with?
- "3. Whether Provision has been made to ascertain by means of British Agents the Number of Natives of India (being Subjects of Her Majesty) actually resident in the French Colonies, with a view to learning their Condition and the Means afforded to them of returning to their Native Land?"
LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, he was glad the noble Lord had given him this opportunity of explaining how the matter stood because many persons connected with India were under a misapprehension as to what had been done and the nature of the experiment proposed to be made. The treaty was not yet signed, but the subject had been under the careful consideration not only of the office with which he was connected, but also of the Colonial Office and the Indian Government. The noble Lord was right in supposing that anxious consideration had been given to the establishment of rules and regulations to protect the emigrants from being oppressed, and to insure to them all the advantages to which they were entitled. He should like, before answering the noble Lord's Questions, to mention how this project of convention originated; for it was necessary to the due appreciation of the treaty to understand how the Government became engaged in the negotiations. They commenced before the late Government came into office, they had been continued under the noble Earl the late Secretary of State, and under the present Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and were at length likely to be brought to a conclusion. The object of the scheme was to do away, through its means, with 1921 that French system of exportation of Blacks from Africa which was well known to their Lordships. There was but one opinion as to that system, for, whatever regulations the French Government might lay down for the exportation of Blacks to their colonies, and whatever advantages the Blacks might enjoy when they arrived there, still it was inevitable that such a system of emigration must be attended with the continuance of the atrocious practice of man-hunting in Africa. Her Majesty's Government had continually remonstrated with the French Government against the prosecution of that scheme; but the French Government very naturally replied (not admitting the scheme to be of the character imputed, that their colonies were in urgent want of labourers, while the English colonies had a constant supply from India, and they said, "Give us the same advantages, and we will put an end to emigration from Africa." It was therefore thought by successive Governments of Her Majesty a matter of importance to consider whether facilities could not be given to the French Government to obtain labourers from India. That was the origin of the negotiations. He would now proceed to answer the questions of the noble Lord. In the first place, the noble Lord asked what precautions had been taken to see that the regulations prescribed for the collection and care of emigrants to our own colonies were also observed in reference to emigrants to French colonies. As regarded British ports, precisely the same regulations would be observed. As regarded French ports in India there was a difference, because they were not in the territory of Her Majesty; but it was provided that there should be consular agents at those ports (if they did not already exist there) who would have the power to see that the emigrants were placed on board under regulations which had been agreed upon between the two Governments, and that the rules which had been established for their conveyance should be carried into effect—that proper lists were delivered of all emigrants, and that contracts were delivered to them. He thought that such stringent rules were laid down that it was impossible the regulations should not be observed; believing, as he did, without the least doubt, that the French authorities would carry them out with strict faith. He had omitted to mention that the appointment of the French agents employed in the collection of emigrants would be subject to the control of the British Go- 1922 vernment, from whom they would receive an authority equivalent to the exequatur given to a Foreign Consul. It was very well known that a considerable number of emigrants had already found their way to the French colony of Reunion. He understood, of 65,000 labourers now in that colony, 49,000 were Indians, and a very large portion subjects of Her Majesty. He understood, further, that these 49,000 were likely very soon to return to India, as their contracts had nearly expired, and so certain was it that a large number-would leave, that the colony of Reunion was in great distress lest the supply of labour should entirely fail. It was of great importance in conducting emigration., especially an emigration passing through the tropics, that there should be strict regulations as to medical attendance and as to the number carried. The French regulations were not by any means as satisfactory as our own in that respect, although it appeared that in practice there had not been much sickness on board French emigrant vessels. But it had been agreed that the French regulations should be assimilated to ours, and in consequence there would be some changes, but fit and proper changes, in the English regulations. The regulations would then be substantially the same for emigrants transported either in French or English ships conveyed either to French or English colonies. With regard to the regulations respecting the condition of the emigrants in the French colonies, the matter had been very carefully examined, and it was found that the regulations in Martinique were of a satisfactory nature; and it was, therefore, provided in the treaty that the regulations in Martinique and no other should be put in force in all the French colonies. The principal stipulations in the contracts were, that they should not be for more than five years; that, at the end of the five years, a free passage should be allowed at the expense of the French Government to their own homes;—that was also the usual stipulations as to their families; and it was arranged that there should be a proper proportion of women to men. These stipulations were of the same character as had been found completely successful in our own colonies. The noble Lord was anxious to know what measures were taken to see that these provisions were carried out. Consuls would be appointed for the purpose, where there were not already British Consuls, in the colonies to which 1923 the emigration took place. The Consuls would be required to obtain all particulars which might be useful to the Government, as to the number of emigrants, the number of deaths on the voyage, the number of deaths during the term of the contracts, and the changes of masters which might be made during the time the emigrants were working in the colony; and it was also provided that the emigrants should have access at all times to the Consul, so that if they had any complaints, those complaints might be made known. The other question was, whether there was a provision in the treaty enabling the Indian Government to put a stop at any time to this emigration. Practically if such a power were retained, the treaty would be of little use, because it was obvious that if the planters were liable at any moment to have the emigration suddenly stopped, they could not calculate upon a constant supply of labour, and it might happen that the Indian Government might stop it upon information which turned out not to warrant such a step. The only practical mode was to limit the operation of the treaty; and it was intended that the treaty should be in force at first for 3½ years—for two years, and 1½ year's notice—and afterwards be liable to be terminated by 1½ year's notice. It was absolutely necessary that the notice should be rather long, or the planters might be embarrassed by a sudden cessation in the supply of labour. The noble Lord had referred to the position of exequatur in Reunion, and had inquired whether Her Majesty's Government were in possession of undoubted information on this point. The Government had received some information with regard to Reunion—not so ample as might have been given, but as far as it went it did not lead them to think that the labourers were ill-treated. At the same time, as there was so much emigration to French colonies, without any treaty, it was important it should be recognized by treaty, that they might be able to see that the subjects of the Queen were properly treated in French colonies. They might rely upon it that it would be the interest of the French planters and Government to see that the emigration was satisfactory to the English Government; because if it were not, the treaty would not be renewed, and the advantage of a constant supply of labour would be lost. He admitted that this was an experiment to be vigilantly guarded and carefully watched; but if it were found 1924 to put a stop to what was called emigration from Africa, and to establish emigration to the French colonies the same as to our own, it would accomplish an object which was worth some risk, and that there was some risk he did not wish to deny.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, the noble Lord had stated what were the causes which had led to this treaty very clearly. As far as he (the Earl of Derby) could make out the provisions were almost precisely the same as those of a treaty which had been in the course of negotiation by the late Government. The subject, however, was one which needed carefully to be watched; but he thought the Government would be justified in entering into the treaty, when it was accompanied by proper precautions. The noble Lord stated that one object of the treaty was to supply the deficiency of labour in the French colonies caused by the discontinuance of African immigration; he (the Earl of Derby) did not collect whether there was any stipulation in the treaty as to the discontinuance of that immigration.
LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, that was obviously the cardinal point upon which the whole treaty turned. The provision was not to be found in the treaty itself, but it was the subject of a distinct agreement with the French Government in such a manner that he had not the least apprehension that we should be deprived of the advantages which we expected. There was some difficulty in making it a provision in the treaty that other emigration should cease, as that was a matter of French internal and municipal regulation. But the subject was under the most anxious consideration of Her Majesty's Government, and they would see that the treaty was not concluded until the point was sufficiently guarded.
§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he now heard for the first time, and with regret, that there was any intention of forming a treaty with France on the basis described by the noble Lord, and earnestly hoped that a reconsideration of all the circumstances of the case would induce the Government to abandon it. No one could be more anxious to guard the emigrants in the Mauritius than the noble Earl who had just spoken, with whom all the measures for their protection originated; and at present every precaution was taken to provide for the comfort and protection of the emigrants from India to the Mauritius, both 1925 during the voyage and on their arrival in the colony. But it was practically impossible to provide in any treaty for the adequate protection of our subjects in a French colony. No matter what provisions were made in the treaty, their fulfilment would ultimately depend not only on the good faith of the French Government, but also on the loyalty and honesty of the persons who were to carry out the orders of that Government in the colony. What protection had they moreover that the law in the French colonies would not be changed? It had been said that the object of the arrangement was to induce the French to desist from the practice of taking the blacks from the coast of Africa, nominally as labourers but practically as slaves; but with all his sympathy for the Africans, he was not prepared to relieve them by the sacrifice of our own subjects in India. He would never consent to subject our own people, who ought to he our constant care, to the very miseries from which we desired to free the blacks of Africa. He did not believe the treaty, if concluded, could be carried into effect without the assistance of the Legislative Council of India, and he had no doubt that body possessed sufficient independence of spirit to bestow upon the Natives that protection which Her Majesty's Government were apparently not disposed to afford. Her Majesty had no power to compel the Government of India either to pass a new or to alter an old law; and it must, therefore, rest with the Government of India to consider whether they could obey the directions of the home Government with safety to the State and to the interests of the people committed to their charge. As the law now stood, the Indian Government could, without further legislation, refuse to permit the embarcation of emigrants in any ship; and he hoped they would retain that power in their hands. The home Government could not deprive them of that power, except by a measure sanctioned by Parliament, which he hoped and trusted would never he agreed to. He repeated his conviction that it would be humanly impossible to insure the same protection to the emigrants in a French as in our own colony. It could only be attempted by constant interference, which must necessarily lead to contention between the two countries. He trusted that the feeling which the proposition of this treaty would excite in India would be such as to compel the Government to bring the subject before Parliament in the shape of a Bill, 1926 and he was confident that if they did, it would be rejected.
§ EARL GREYagreed with the noble Earl who had just spoken, that if the proposed agreement were carried out care must be taken to guard against the danger of abuse. He believed that the present system of Coolie emigration from India to the Mauritius had conferred a benefit upon both emigrants and colonists. The enormous increase in the production of sugar in the Mauritius was entirely due to the well-regulated system of bringing emigrants to that colony; and that it was advantageous to the Coolies themselves was proved by the large sums of money they were able to carry back to India, and their satisfaction with the treatment they received was such that it was no uncommon thing for them to bring their friends and relatives from India to join them in the colony. This plan of emigration did good to India in another way, because when the emigrants returned they brought with them a knowledge of a better system of agriculture, and improved modes of labour, which they would not fail gradually to introduce upon their own soil, and habits of perseverance and industry which have a beneficial effect on the inhabitants of their own countries. He was ready to admit that we had not the means of enforcing the same protection to the emigrants in a French colony that we had in one of our own; but he thought that the powers which we possessed of terminating the treaty at eighteen months' notice was a sufficient answer to the noble Earl's objections, because the knowledge that that power would be exercised would render the French colonists very careful how they did anything to excite our indignation, and induce us to put it into operation. The appointment of agents on the spot, the presence of English Consuls in the French colonies, to whom the emigrants were secured access, was also another security for the good treatment of the emigrants; and, on the whole, he felt the system was one that ought to be fairly tried. He might mention that he had reason to believe, from persons who had visited the interior of the French colonies, that the labourers, when they arrived there, were, on the whole, well treated. He would approve of the plan only on one condition. Her Majesty's Government ought to insist, before a single labourer went to the French colonies from India, that most atrocious system of opening places for the reception of slaves on 1927 the coast of Africa, under the direct authority of the French Government, should be at once abandoned. The more he heard of the working of this system the more he was convinced of its atrocity. The French Government opened what they called "depots of industry" on the African coast. They bought the slaves who were brought down to them. For the purpose of supplying these depots, slave-hunts were instituted, and industrious populations in the interior were liable to be kidnapped, and hundreds and thousands were killed in wars in order to bring a few hundreds to the French depots. The French Government were at this moment the great slave-traders of Africa, and Her Majesty's Government would desert their duty if they did not take care that, before the French Government were allowed to obtain the advantages given under this treaty, the most complete security should be taken for the abandonment of this most atrocious system.
THE EARL OF CARNARVONthought that there were one or two points on which it was most important they should have explanation. He wished to know whether there was any stringent stipulations for the re-conveyance of the Coolies back to their own country; for if there were not the result would be exceedingly unfortunate. His noble Friend used an expression which created great apprehension in his mind. He alluded to the amount of space on board the ship which conveyed the Coolies. In the case of an English ship it was one emigrant to two tons, but in French ships it was two emigrants to two tons. He understood that the matter was under consideration, hut he was afraid that our regulations were to be relaxed to meet the French. The contracts with the Coolies were said to be of five years' duration; he wished to know whether they would be absolute contracts, or whether power would be given to the Coolies after three years' service, to change their masters. He thought that the Government would not be doing its duty if it did not throw around the Coolies every possible protection in their power.
§ THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, that the noble Earl who had condemned this treaty (the Earl of Ellenborough), stated that he now heard of it for the first time; he (the Duke of Newcastle) was not, therefore, surprised at the views which the noble Earl had expressed, for when he, too, first heard of it his impressions were very 1928 nufavourable, and he had not sufficiently appreciated its advantages. The noble Earl stated that although the law in the French colonies might be perfectly good at the present moment, it was in the power of France to alter that law, and to render it less favourable to the Coolies. But the possibility of any such alteration was obviated by the treaty. It was ascertained that the law of Martinique was as favourable to the Coolies as the law in the British colonies, and the treaty contained a provision that the laws of the other French colonies should be in this respect assimilated to that of Martinique. It was therefore impossible for the French Government, without violating the treaty and committing a breach of faith, to alter the law in a manner unfavourable to the Coolies. The noble Earl also declared that he was not ready to sacrifice the subjects of Great Britain in India, in order to save the blacks in Africa. He was astonished to hear this opinion, in which he heartily concurred, put forward as an objection, because although the treaty arose out of the attempt on the part of France to revive the slave trade on the coast of Africa, yet it must not be forgotten that there existed a state of things in the French colonies which might justify the treaty apart from what had taken place on the African coast. In the Island of Reunion, out of 69,000 labourers not less than 49,000 were Coolies The noble Earl, therefore, should not forget that the French had the power of introducing British subjects into their colonies without our permission, and that at present we had no power of interfering for their protection through our Consuls. But by the Treaty we obtained a better position for them, or at least as good as for emigrants to our own colonies. Pains had been taken to ascertain the condition and state of the law regarding labourers in two of the French colonies—Martinique and Reunion—and the reports thus obtained were certainly favourable as to the treatment of the labourers. The great difficulty, no doubt, lay in the colonies themselves. As regarded the depots in India, and the transmission of the Coolies across the seas, the English Government had sufficient means of securing that the treatment of the Coolies who emigrated to French colonies should be identical with that of the emigrants to British colonies. Under the treaty provision was taken that the Coolies should not only have free access to our 1929 Consuls, but that the French authorities should be obliged to give ample returns to our Consuls of the number of Coolies in each colony, the time of their service, the mortality among them, and a very considerable number of details which gave a fair, if not entire, security for the treatment of these emigrants. His noble Friend opposite (Earl Grey) said, he assented to the treaty on one condition—namely, that the emigration from Africa now carried on under the French Government should entirely cease. That condition was not introduced into the treaty, as they were met when they proposed it by the argument that it would be an indignity to France to interfere with its municipal law; but if there was faith in men they were entitled to assume on promises made apart from the treaty that emigration, so far as regarded the East Coast of Africa, would cease immediately; but that as regarded the West Coast, in consequence of an existing contract, it would not cease till about a year from this time. His noble Friend who spoke last asked whether security had been taken for return passages to the Coolies. His reply was that an express provision was made in the treaty to that effect. His noble Friend also asked whether the five years' contract with the Coolies was identical with our own, and whether there was a limitation of three years. In respect to this he might state that on some minor points there were slight differences in the French contract from our own, but these were all compensated for by corresponding concessions. His impression was that the period of five years in the French contract was absolute. With regard to the space allowed to each Coolie in the French vessels, it would not be so great as had hitherto been allowed in our emigration ships. Our Emigration Commissioners had for the last two years been considering whether, in the ca3e of ships conveying emigrants to our own colonies, sonic diminution of the space now given—which was twelve superficial feet for each adult, and six feet between decks—should not take place; and in the case of the French ships some diminution had, therefore, been admitted from our present standard. This was not a concession to the French against the convictions of Her Majesty's Government, but one that flowed from the suggestion of our own Emigration Commissioners. He could assure their Lordships that everything had been done that was 1930 deemed necessary to insure the comfort of the Coolies, and that the operations of the whole project would be watched with the most careful attention. The treaty, it was arranged, might be terminated on a notice being given of eighteen months.
§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHcalled the attention of the noble Earl to the practical effect which giving notice of the termination of the treaty would have upon the Coolies. It was clear that after the treaty terminated the Coolies in a French colony would cease to have the protection which it extended to them; and it might happen that many Coolies who had entered into the five years' contract would have to spend some years of the period without the security they had counted upon enjoying.
§ House adjourned at Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.