Lords Sitting of 28 February 1860

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Probate and Administration (India); Court of Chancery.
PLEA OF "NOT GUILTY."—PETITION.—PUNISHMENT OF BRIBERY.

  EXPLANATION.
  LORD BROUGHAMsaid, a petition had been entrusted to him from an important body, the Metropolitan and Provincial Law Society, signed by their respected President Mr. Beaumont, praying their Lordships to pass the Bill, which he (Lord Brougham) had introduced, and which had been read a first time. Its object was to substitute for the question, on arraignment, "Are you not guilty, or guilty," the question, "Do you desire to be tried, or do you plead guilty?" The body of solicitors and attorneys who composed the society adduced strong reasons from experience in favour of the measure, and he could refer any one desirous of seeing the facts stated, to read an able and instructive letter of Mr. Beaumont, published last December, and a very important tract of Mr. Osborn, gaol chaplain at Bath, which contained a great body of evidence from the reverend author's correspondence with gaol chaplains,
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  recorders, and other magistrates, showing clearly the mischievous effects of the present method of proceeding. He would take this opportunity of contradicting a statement which had been often made since the last Congress of the National Association of Social Science, and made under an entire mistake of what had passed there. He hardly ever had complained of such misstatements, nor would he now on his own account merely, but in justice to his colleagues of the Association, and in order to prevent the use made of the statement by the adversaries of all effectual measures to extirpate electoral corruption, he felt bound to set this matter right. It had been represented at different times, even since the Congress at Bradford, that he had recommended making bribery felony, and he saw in a respectable paper that morning (The Morning Post,) wonder expressed that he (Lord Brougham) the reformer of the Criminal Law, and ex-President of its Society, should have fallen into such an error. Now, happily on this there could not possibly be any mistake; for the speech was not one about which different accounts or reports could be given by those who heard it, but it was an address written and delivered by him, being the annual address as President of Council of the Association, and he held in his hand that address as printed in their Transactions. He would read the words of the address as far as related to this subject. After relating his experience of the inefficacy of pecuniary penalties to check slave trading, which his Act of 1811 had effectually abolished, as carried on by British subjects, and he really believed that this reference had occasioned the mistake, but no one would think because slave trading, the most enormous crime, involving all the worst offences, of fraud, pillage, and even murder, was properly declared to be a felony, and punishable as such, that, therefore, the same penalty should be attached to bribery—on the contrary, the address expressly stated that it should be dealt with as a criminal misdemeanour, which it is, and made punishable as such, and that candidates and their agents would no longer be guilty of it when they found that they were liable to imprisonment with hard labour, and that the road from the hustings led not to the House of Commons, but to the treadmill. Not one word was said to recommend treating the offence as a felony. That those guilty of it, both those who took, and still more, they

  1909
  who gave bribes, were guilty in his view, that the poor men whom they bribed, that these were guilty of a most grievous offence, and one which sapped the very foundation of our constitution, was his deliberate opinion at the time he delivered the address, and this opinion had been confirmed by whatever had since passed. He felt quite convinced that the course recommended at the Congress, and to which no one had offered the least objection, must be pursued by those elsewhere and in their Lordships' House, if they were in earnest in their efforts to extirpate bribery. No other means had the least chance of proving effectual. But treating bribery as what it is, an infamous offence, and punishing it as such, would have the happy effect of putting it down.

CRIMINAL OUTRAGES IN IRELAND.

  RETURNS MOVED FOR.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that in moving for a number of Returns, of which he had given notice, connected with criminal outrages in Ireland, he wished to draw their Lordships' attention to the remarkable impunity with which offences and crimes of the gravest and most atrocious character were committed in certain parts of Ireland. The occurrence of such outrages was the more extraordinary, as that country presented an appearance of general improvement and increased prosperity within the last few years, such as had never before existed within the recollection, he believed, of any of their Lordships. The constituted authorities appeared perfectly unable to cope with the criminal tendencies of assassins in certain districts; and for this the Government—not the present or any particular Administration, but the State generally—were, in his opinion, to blame for not having paid due attention to the matter. The present condition of affairs was equally disgraceful to the people among whom such outrages were committed, and to the authorities of the State under which they could pass unpunished. He did not wish to weary their Lordships with a recital of all the cases of outrage which had occurred during the last few years, many of which must be fresh in their Lordships' recollection; but he might instance the recent attempt to assassinate Mr. Dunn in the streets of Tullamore, and the audacious attack which had been made only a few weeks ago upon a house at Lamplugh.
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  How was it, he would ask, that such crimes could be perpetrated with impunity in a country where there were 12,000 policemen and seventy-two magistrates? These circumstances had not passed without remark from the judicial bench. The Chief Baron, at the Westmeath Assizes, in July, 1858, in referring to the large amount of undetected crime which was known to exist in that quarter, declared his inability to understand how such a state of things could exist if the authorities did their duty, and expressed his opinion that much neglect and want of diligence had been exhibited, The Chief Justice of Ireland, in his charge to the grand jury at Tullamore, June 25, 1859, remarked with regret that the cases of unpunished crime and outrage which had occurred in the county since the last assizes were sixfold in comparison with those in which the offenders were made amenable. The police reported that seventeen cases of Whiteboy or agrarian outrage had been committed between the 2nd of March and the 17th of July, in two of which alone the criminals appeared to have been made amenable to the law. The Chief Justice added:—
  "Now, gentlemen, you have, I presume, magistrates and police. I presume they know their duty. I understand that the whole county has been proclaimed, and therefore extraordinary powers have been vested in the persons who are intrusted with the preservation of the peace. I do not know the purpose for which a police force is organized if it be not to prevent crime and outrage; very possibly no force may be able entirely to prevent the commission of crime; but at least the duty belongs to them of detecting and apprehending offenders and all who have disturbed the peace of your county. I am quite willing to presume that the persons to whom this duty has been delegated have attempted to perform it; but, with respect to the results, I regret to say they have been just the same as if the duty had not been performed at all. I hope that the purpose for which police constables have been organized and the usefulness of the office have not been merged in the éclat and renown to which, for some purpose or other, they may very laudably aspire, namely, the charm of a military body; but, unquestionably, the primary duty of the police constable is that of an officer for preserving the peace of the county, and—when he cannot preserve—of discovering, hunting out, tracing, and bringing to justice the offenders and disturbers of the peace. The offenders, in almost all instances, are perfectly well known; and how it happens that the police should be unable to get some tidings of, or find out some clue to the detection of these offenders, is to me a matter of wonder."
  The cause of this was the inefficiency of the police for the purposes for which they were originally constituted. He would read to the House a few statistics which would prove

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  conclusively that crime was on the increase in the localities referred to, while convictions were less frequent than in past years. He held in his hand a return of the number of persons committed and convicted in Ireland for three years, up to the conclusion of 1858. In 1856, 2,063 persons were committed, 1,024 were convicted, and 1,039 were acquitted. In 1857, 2,153 were committed, 1,036 convicted, and l,117 acquitted. In 1858 the number of persons committed was 2,058, and the number convicted only 895, leaving no less than 1,163 acquittals. He did not wish to throw any disparagement on the character of the Irish constabulary, who were, for their numbers, one of the best conducted bodies of men in the world. They were honest, sober, attentive, and the fault was not with them, but with those who had made them no longer a constabulary force, but practically soldiers. That they were as excellent a body of light infantry as could be found, he did not doubt; but they were taken from their duties as police, and they were thereby rendered incapable of doing the work of constables. What was the origin of this force, and what were they entitled upon their formation? They were first organized by the late Sir Robert Peel in 1814, who certainly never meant them to he a military force. The title of the Bill under which they were constituted was, "A Bill to provide for the better execution of the laws in Ireland, by appointing superintending magistrates and additional constables in counties in certain cases." When the last Act regulating this force was under discussion in 1836, the Duke of Wellington took the objection that unless care were taken the constabulary would become a military force in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant. The Prime Minister thereupon replied, that it was intended all through that they should be constables. Under the management, however, to which the police had been subjected they had become a military force, the first recognition of which was that when the Queen visited Ireland this force marched past her Majesty at a grand review in the Phoenix-park, Dublin, as part of the military force of Ireland. The whole of their drill and instruction was military, and was such as not only to give them no opportunities of discharging their duties as constables, but to prevent their efficiency as such. When a policeman joined the force he was brought up to Dublin for drill. No doubt the police ought to be drilled to a certain extent, to enable them to meet
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  bodies more numerous than themselves; but these men were dressed and accoutred as soldiers, and were drilled as soldiers. The first duty of a policeman, it might be thought, was to make himself acquainted with every person in his parish and to go about among them. But the men were so confined to barracks as to prevent as much as possible any intercourse with the public. In point of fact if any constable were known to have any connexion or intercourse with the people, so far from being considered a useful man who was likely to detect criminals, he was regarded as a dangerous person, whose sympathies were with the people; it was thought that he was not to be depended upon, and he was removed from the scenes and persons who were familiar to him to a new district, and sometimes dismissed the force altogether. He did not think that the object of establishing a police force was simply to institute a sort of domestic military, altogether separate and cut off from the people, but these men were armed, and dressed, and kept in barracks just as if they were soldiers of the Royal army. This was a matter that Parliament had not yet considered; but it was one which ought to be dealt with without delay. Then there was a body of detectives, whoso sole duty it was to detect crime; and when there were any disturbances or extraordinary crimes in the provinces these men were sent from the metropolis to parts of the country of which they knew no more than the London police would, and their appearance in a locality usually had the effect of exciting jealousy among the regular force; but such a system was necessary, because the local police being a sort of military body, were useless for the purposes of a detective police. There was an instance of a murder being committed on the borders of Clare "and Galway, and one of these detectives was sent down. He appeared dressed like a gentleman, and instead of moving about in a judicious way in a different character among the peasantry to obtain information, he so demeaned himself that it became immediately known who he was. The consequence was that he could obtain no information whatever. But to make the absurdity greater, when about a year afterwards another grave offence committed in the same neighbourhood, the very same man, of course well-known to the people, was sent down to make inquiries. It was an important feature in this matter that so far from crime being

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  prevalent in Ireland, so far from the people generally being disorderly, there was not on the face of the earth a population among whom there was so little general crime and immorality. He ventured to say that if returns of the amount of crime of all kinds were made, the statistics would reflect the highest honour on the Irish people. What he complained of was that where crime did exist the constituted authorities of the country were totally unable to deal with it, and that where it did not exist it was entirely due to the good conduct of the people themselves. He would say a word or two with respect to the stipendiary magistrates. When the Act of 1836 passed through Parliament there was a good deal of discussion about the appointment of this class of magistrates, and it was then contended that they were selected as men more likely to be able to deal with the crime of the country than the resident magistrates. But they were in a very anomalous and strange position, and their standing in reference to the resident magistrates was very ill-defined. The gentry of the country did not know in what light to regard them, and the consequence was, a very natural clashing of the duties of the two bodies. One effect of this appointment had been that the constabulary no longer looked upon the resident magistracy with the respect which they ought to do. In proof this he might cite the reply of a constable to a resident magistrate, a Member of the other House, when he found fault with some part of his conduct,—"I have given satisfaction to my superior officer, and that is enough for me." The truth was that the stipendiary magistrates had superseded the local magistracy, and this reacted on the constabulary. It was a grave constitutional question whether this large constabulary force ought to he continued as an armed body; whether, in short, they were to be constables or soldiers, The force consisted of 12,184 men, with 316 horses, and they were all appointed by and under the control of the Lord Lieutenant. The cost, including the stipendiary magistrates, was upwards of £653,256, of which no less than £639,391 was chargeable on the Consolidated Fund, and £13,865 on counties and cities in Ireland. He believed that no corps d'élite in Europe formed a more admirable body of men than the 12,000 members of the Irish constabulary force. They were told to be soldiers, and they were excellent soldiers; and he felt persuaded that if
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  they were told be constables they would be excellent constables. He did not object to their being armed and drilled, but he did object to their being taken away from the proper performance of their duties as a constabulary force, and converted into soldiers. The noble Marquess concluded by moving for a
  "Return of the Number of Offences against the Person reported to the Government by the Police in Ireland, and the Number of Individuals tried, the Number acquitted, and the Number committed for such Crimes, in each Year from the 1st January, 1850, to the 1st January, 1860: Also,
  "Return of the Number of Cases in which the Irish Government offered Rewards for the Apprehension of Criminals in each of the above-mentioned Years, specifying the Number of Cases in which any such Reward was claimed and paid: Also,
  "Return of the Number of Outrages reported in each of the last Seven Years in the Counties of Meath, Westmeath, and King's County, and the Number of Persons tried, with the Number of Convictions or Acquittals in those Years: Also,
  "Return of the Amount of the Police stationed in those Counties in each of those Years, and of the Number of Stipendiary Magistrates: And also,
  "Return of the Total Amount of the Constabulary Force in Ireland and of the Number of Stipendiary Magistrates, in each of the Years 1830, 1840, 1850, 1855, and 1859."
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, that with the alteration of a very few words there would be no objection to producing the Returns moved for by the noble Marquess, he proposed that the words "for such crimes" in the first Return should be omitted, inasmuch as it would be impossible to conform to them without entailing a vast amount of unnecessary labour and loss of time. He would also recommend that the different Returns should be made out for the term of ten years, instead of for the varying intervals indicated in the Motion. He must, however, ask their Lordships not to be led away by the noble Marquess's speech, to the tenor of which there were grave objections. He (the Duke of Somerset) thought the Irish constabulary, for the time it had existed, had been a most useful force; and that anything that tended to reduce its efficiency would be regarded as a serious evil to Ireland. It was not enough to say that crimes had been committed, and that the persons who had committed them had escaped detection and punishment. In order to form a proper estimate of the value of the Irish police force, which might now he regarded as an institution of the country, it was necessary to look back to their services for a series of years; and, if their Lordships did that,

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  they would be convinced that upon the whole those services had tended greatly to diminish crime. The nature of crime in Ireland as compared with that of England, and the manifest difference in the facilities for its detection in the two countries, were also to be borne in mind. In Ireland the mass of the population were disposed to protect the perpetration of the most common class of outrages; and their Lordships must recollect that a detective force was not all that was wanted to bring persons who had committed crime to trial and conviction; there must also be witnesses, and the great difficulty was to obtain witnesses. Crime in Ireland was of a peculiar character. It was generally crime against the person, and resulted from two causes—either from questions connected with land or with religion. Taking offences against the person, he would show their Lordships—looking back over a series of years—that crime had greatly diminished. In 1850 the offences specially reported to the Inspector General were 10,600; in 1851 they were reduced to 9,000; in 1855 to 4,000; in 1858 to 3,400; and in 1859 they amounted to 3,600. There had, therefore, been a great decrease in that class of crimes in ten years. Again, taking cases of homicide, in 1850 they amounted to 139; in 1858 they were reduced to 103; and in 1859 to 88. Of serious assaults, endangering life, there were, in 1850, 748; and since that time they had been reduced in some years and had increased in others. They were, therefore, unhappily, about as numerous now as they were ten years ago; but they arose in nearly every instance out of disputes connected with the tenure of land, and they were limited to a small portion of the country. In 1850 there were 7,000 cases of sheep and cattle stealing, and in 1858, 1,100. So that in that class of crime there had been a remarkable diminution. And so he could go through the whole category of crime, and show that under the constabulary which the noble Marquess condemned, because it had not tended to diminish crime, in reality crime had greatly diminished, and especially that of homicide. Cases of the unlawful administration of an oath, which was formerly a common crime, had also greatly diminished, as had those of illicit distillation and sending threatening notices. Illicit distillation was formerly sought to be nut down by a special revenue police. That force had been done away, and partly amalgamated with the constabu-
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  lary; and he (the Duke of Somerset) was informed by authorities connected with the revenue that illicit distillation had been more repressed by the constabulary than it had been before. The noble Marquess did not wish the Irish constabulary force to be soldiers; but as he understood the noble Marquess, he did not object to the constabulary being subjected to a certain amount of drill, inasmuch as that was necessary and valuable in the case of men who might be called on to act in bodies; but he did not clearly apprehend the exact amount of condemnation which the noble Marquess meant to bestow on the constabulary force. The detection of crime in Ireland materially depended on obtaining the necessary witnesses. But that was next to impossible, and crime would still continue so long as there prevailed among the people a determination not to support the law, but to uphold instead a hidden law of their own, controlling and overriding the law of the land. The noble Marquess objected to the constabulary being employed as detectives, because he said they set about their business in a very clumsy manner. That might be so, but he (the Duke of Somerset) had been informed that on one occasion, when a detective had been sent over to Ireland from England with a view to the discovery of the perpetrator of a crime in Dublin, he found the constabulary force had such superior means of obtaining information that he left the matter in their hands. He did not think the condemnation passed upon the police force of Ireland by the noble Marquess was a just one, and in agreeing to the Motion he wished it to be understood that he dissented from the opinion upon which it had been made. He should propose to amend the Motion by omitting from the first Return the words "for such crimes," and in the third substituting "ten" years for "seven."
  THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYthought that the constabulary should be placed more under the control of the local magistrates. At present they received their orders from head quarters, and they seemed to feel a good deal of jealousy about being interfered with by the local authorities.
  EARL GREYthought it very likely that there existed too great a desire on the part of the chief of the force to turn the constabulary into a body of smart soldiers. But he agreed with the noble Duke that the failure in bringing criminals to justice in Ireland arose not from that cause, but

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  from the sympathy manifested by the mass of the population with the perpetrators of agrarian outrages. The noble Marquess complained that the men were kept always in their uniform; but that was likewise the case with the London force, with the exception of a certain number of men, who were allowed to appear in plain clothes on special occasions. The real cause of the impunity of crime was the reluctance of the population to appear against the perpetrators of offences. In fact, in some districts, the whole population sympathised with the criminal rather than with the police. In his opinion it would be necessary to carry further a principle they had already recognized by an Act passed in the year 1847, by which the Irish Government were enabled to station a body of police in any particular place at the expense of the district. That was a return to the old law of our Saxon ancestors, who made each district responsible for all the offences committed within it; and by that law peace and good order had at last been established. What he should recommend would be to lay a fine upon every district in which offences of a certain description were committed, to be levied not upon the owners of the property, but upon the occupiers, unless the offenders were brought to justice. Something must be done, for the bad spirit which they had hoped had been put down was reviving; and if they allowed that spirit to interfere with the schemes for the improvement of property which were beginning to be adopted, there was an end to all their hopes for the advancement of the country in wealth, in prosperity, and in civilization.
  THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHsaid, he believed the returns which the noble Duke (the Duke of Somerset) had quoted, for the purpose of showing that crime had of late diminished in Ireland were calculated to mislead their Lordships. Since the month of July, 1858, there had been twelve murders committed in the county of Westmeath, and there had been only one conviction in these twelve cases, and that had only been a conviction for manslaughter. Three other persons, indeed, remained for trial at the next assizes. How then could it be said that there had of late been a diminution of crime in Ireland? The ribbon system was one of awful terror, and it was no wonder that under its operation witnesses were prevented from affording their aid to secure the ends of justice. He did not believe that anything like that system ex-
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  isted in any other country in Europe. He was persuaded that nothing but military law would be capable of dealing with that evil. He did not say that he would recommend the introduction of military law into Ireland; but he said that the evil was one that could only be dealt with by extraordinary means. Something should be done, for the country could not be left in the state in which it was at present placed.
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, he thought it was too much the habit, in discussions of this nature, for noble Lords to quote the instances of their own exceptional localities, as showing the character of the whole country. When the noble Marquess, who spoke last, said that crime and outrage had increased, and were increasing, he gave utterance to a statement which was not borne out by the returns that had been made with regard to the country generally, however true it might be with regard to his own particular county. His noble Friend on the cross benches (Earl Grey) seemed to think that agrarian outrages had of late been on the increase, but he could assure his noble Friend that that was not the case. In proof that crime was generally decreasing he might mention that in 1851 there were twelve homicides of an agrarian character, while last year there were only four; that, in 1851 there 133 serious assaults endangering life, and last year only nineteen. These facts must be satisfactory to their Lordships, and it certainly was unfair towards a country in which such progress had been made to infer that generally speaking there was now the same extent of crime as obtained when he was Secretary for Ireland and for some years subsequently. It was said that the police in Ireland assumed a somewhat military character. That, no doubt, was an evil to be guarded against; but no one would wish to reduce the Irish constabulary to the purely civilian character of the police in this country. He admitted, however, that the force ought not to be so purely military as to greatly impair its usefulness in detecting crime, and in aiding the law by the production of witnesses. It was true that there was often a lack of witnesses that enabled many criminals to escape, and doubtless a good constable could often bring forward a witness where an inefficient one would fail. A complaint had been made that the constabulary did not attend to the orders of the local magistrates. Now, of course, it was impossible for him to test exactly the justice of that

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  complaint; but where a body had been organized under an efficient head it was absolutely necessary that they should take their orders from their own officers, and not from individual magistrates. He did not affirm that they should not be under the orders of the magistracy generally; but infinite confusion would result if each magistrate were able to give independent orders, and the constabulary would never know whom they were to obey. In England the same rule prevailed. It was the duty of the police to take orders from their Superintendents; and though this sometimes led to complaints, he was convinced that the more they were kept under the control of their own officers the better.
  THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHsaid, he had not the slightest intention of making an attack on the Government, but simply to state what he knew to be the fact. If the law were powerful enough to give the people protection they would not want witnesses; but unfortunately it was not so.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, he had never intended to deny that there had been an immense decrease of crime in Ireland, which now was one of the most tranquil countries in Europe. As to England, she would come very badly off in comparison with the sister country. The homicides in England vastly exceeded those in Ireland, and horrible crimes were committed here which in Ireland were totally unknown. What he complained of was that the Irish police were unable to detect the crime which did exist there. According to the argument of the noble Duke, soldiers would do very well as a constabulary force in Ireland; but he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) maintained that soldiers could not be constables. There was at present great difficulty in procuring evidence; he admitted that; but the local constables, who had more liberty of action, and who knew the country and had greater intercourse with the population used to get evidence, and would do so again. Some time ago a murder was committed in Queen's County, according to rumour, by a man named Delany. This person absconded, and the police with all their exertions could not ascertain whither he had gone. Now, if there had been such a body of constables as used to exist, he believed it would have been impossible for Delany to have escaped. He did not object to the alterations proposed in the Returns.
  Motion as amended agreed to.
  Returns ordered.

EMIGRATION FROM INDIA—THE FRENCH COLONIES.

  QUESTION.
  LORD HARRIS, after some prefatory remarks, which were inaudible, asked Her Majesty's Government, according to his notice,—

  "1. Whether in a Treaty which, it is reported, is about to be ratified with France, and by which the Government of that Country will be authorized to appoint Emigration Agents at the Presidency or other Seaport Towns of India for the Purpose of obtaining Agricultural Labourers for the French Colonies, Care has been taken to ensure that the Laws, Rules, and Regulations respecting Emigrants from India to British Colonies at present existing, or as they may hereafter be modified, shall be fully enforced; and if so, by what means?

  "2. Whether Power has been retained to the Government of India temporarily to stop such Emigration should there be reason to suppose that the above Conditions had not been complied with?

  "3. Whether Provision has been made to ascertain by means of British Agents the Number of Natives of India (being Subjects of Her Majesty) actually resident in the French Colonies, with a view to learning their Condition and the Means afforded to them of returning to their Native Land?"

  LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, he was glad the noble Lord had given him this opportunity of explaining how the matter stood because many persons connected with India were under a misapprehension as to what had been done and the nature of the experiment proposed to be made. The treaty was not yet signed, but the subject had been under the careful consideration not only of the office with which he was connected, but also of the Colonial Office and the Indian Government. The noble Lord was right in supposing that anxious consideration had been given to the establishment of rules and regulations to protect the emigrants from being oppressed, and to insure to them all the advantages to which they were entitled. He should like, before answering the noble Lord's Questions, to mention how this project of convention originated; for it was necessary to the due appreciation of the treaty to understand how the Government became engaged in the negotiations. They commenced before the late Government came into office, they had been continued under the noble Earl the late Secretary of State, and under the present Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and were at length likely to be brought to a conclusion. The object of the scheme was to do away, through its means, with

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  that French system of exportation of Blacks from Africa which was well known to their Lordships. There was but one opinion as to that system, for, whatever regulations the French Government might lay down for the exportation of Blacks to their colonies, and whatever advantages the Blacks might enjoy when they arrived there, still it was inevitable that such a system of emigration must be attended with the continuance of the atrocious practice of man-hunting in Africa. Her Majesty's Government had continually remonstrated with the French Government against the prosecution of that scheme; but the French Government very naturally replied (not admitting the scheme to be of the character imputed, that their colonies were in urgent want of labourers, while the English colonies had a constant supply from India, and they said, "Give us the same advantages, and we will put an end to emigration from Africa." It was therefore thought by successive Governments of Her Majesty a matter of importance to consider whether facilities could not be given to the French Government to obtain labourers from India. That was the origin of the negotiations. He would now proceed to answer the questions of the noble Lord. In the first place, the noble Lord asked what precautions had been taken to see that the regulations prescribed for the collection and care of emigrants to our own colonies were also observed in reference to emigrants to French colonies. As regarded British ports, precisely the same regulations would be observed. As regarded French ports in India there was a difference, because they were not in the territory of Her Majesty; but it was provided that there should be consular agents at those ports (if they did not already exist there) who would have the power to see that the emigrants were placed on board under regulations which had been agreed upon between the two Governments, and that the rules which had been established for their conveyance should be carried into effect—that proper lists were delivered of all emigrants, and that contracts were delivered to them. He thought that such stringent rules were laid down that it was impossible the regulations should not be observed; believing, as he did, without the least doubt, that the French authorities would carry them out with strict faith. He had omitted to mention that the appointment of the French agents employed in the collection of emigrants would be subject to the control of the British Go-
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  vernment, from whom they would receive an authority equivalent to the exequatur given to a Foreign Consul. It was very well known that a considerable number of emigrants had already found their way to the French colony of Reunion. He understood, of 65,000 labourers now in that colony, 49,000 were Indians, and a very large portion subjects of Her Majesty. He understood, further, that these 49,000 were likely very soon to return to India, as their contracts had nearly expired, and so certain was it that a large number-would leave, that the colony of Reunion was in great distress lest the supply of labour should entirely fail. It was of great importance in conducting emigration., especially an emigration passing through the tropics, that there should be strict regulations as to medical attendance and as to the number carried. The French regulations were not by any means as satisfactory as our own in that respect, although it appeared that in practice there had not been much sickness on board French emigrant vessels. But it had been agreed that the French regulations should be assimilated to ours, and in consequence there would be some changes, but fit and proper changes, in the English regulations. The regulations would then be substantially the same for emigrants transported either in French or English ships conveyed either to French or English colonies. With regard to the regulations respecting the condition of the emigrants in the French colonies, the matter had been very carefully examined, and it was found that the regulations in Martinique were of a satisfactory nature; and it was, therefore, provided in the treaty that the regulations in Martinique and no other should be put in force in all the French colonies. The principal stipulations in the contracts were, that they should not be for more than five years; that, at the end of the five years, a free passage should be allowed at the expense of the French Government to their own homes;—that was also the usual stipulations as to their families; and it was arranged that there should be a proper proportion of women to men. These stipulations were of the same character as had been found completely successful in our own colonies. The noble Lord was anxious to know what measures were taken to see that these provisions were carried out. Consuls would be appointed for the purpose, where there were not already British Consuls, in the colonies to which

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  the emigration took place. The Consuls would be required to obtain all particulars which might be useful to the Government, as to the number of emigrants, the number of deaths on the voyage, the number of deaths during the term of the contracts, and the changes of masters which might be made during the time the emigrants were working in the colony; and it was also provided that the emigrants should have access at all times to the Consul, so that if they had any complaints, those complaints might be made known. The other question was, whether there was a provision in the treaty enabling the Indian Government to put a stop at any time to this emigration. Practically if such a power were retained, the treaty would be of little use, because it was obvious that if the planters were liable at any moment to have the emigration suddenly stopped, they could not calculate upon a constant supply of labour, and it might happen that the Indian Government might stop it upon information which turned out not to warrant such a step. The only practical mode was to limit the operation of the treaty; and it was intended that the treaty should be in force at first for 3½ years—for two years, and 1½ year's notice—and afterwards be liable to be terminated by 1½ year's notice. It was absolutely necessary that the notice should be rather long, or the planters might be embarrassed by a sudden cessation in the supply of labour. The noble Lord had referred to the position of exequatur in Reunion, and had inquired whether Her Majesty's Government were in possession of undoubted information on this point. The Government had received some information with regard to Reunion—not so ample as might have been given, but as far as it went it did not lead them to think that the labourers were ill-treated. At the same time, as there was so much emigration to French colonies, without any treaty, it was important it should be recognized by treaty, that they might be able to see that the subjects of the Queen were properly treated in French colonies. They might rely upon it that it would be the interest of the French planters and Government to see that the emigration was satisfactory to the English Government; because if it were not, the treaty would not be renewed, and the advantage of a constant supply of labour would be lost. He admitted that this was an experiment to be vigilantly guarded and carefully watched; but if it were found
  1924
  to put a stop to what was called emigration from Africa, and to establish emigration to the French colonies the same as to our own, it would accomplish an object which was worth some risk, and that there was some risk he did not wish to deny.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, the noble Lord had stated what were the causes which had led to this treaty very clearly. As far as he (the Earl of Derby) could make out the provisions were almost precisely the same as those of a treaty which had been in the course of negotiation by the late Government. The subject, however, was one which needed carefully to be watched; but he thought the Government would be justified in entering into the treaty, when it was accompanied by proper precautions. The noble Lord stated that one object of the treaty was to supply the deficiency of labour in the French colonies caused by the discontinuance of African immigration; he (the Earl of Derby) did not collect whether there was any stipulation in the treaty as to the discontinuance of that immigration.
  LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, that was obviously the cardinal point upon which the whole treaty turned. The provision was not to be found in the treaty itself, but it was the subject of a distinct agreement with the French Government in such a manner that he had not the least apprehension that we should be deprived of the advantages which we expected. There was some difficulty in making it a provision in the treaty that other emigration should cease, as that was a matter of French internal and municipal regulation. But the subject was under the most anxious consideration of Her Majesty's Government, and they would see that the treaty was not concluded until the point was sufficiently guarded.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he now heard for the first time, and with regret, that there was any intention of forming a treaty with France on the basis described by the noble Lord, and earnestly hoped that a reconsideration of all the circumstances of the case would induce the Government to abandon it. No one could be more anxious to guard the emigrants in the Mauritius than the noble Earl who had just spoken, with whom all the measures for their protection originated; and at present every precaution was taken to provide for the comfort and protection of the emigrants from India to the Mauritius, both

  1925
  during the voyage and on their arrival in the colony. But it was practically impossible to provide in any treaty for the adequate protection of our subjects in a French colony. No matter what provisions were made in the treaty, their fulfilment would ultimately depend not only on the good faith of the French Government, but also on the loyalty and honesty of the persons who were to carry out the orders of that Government in the colony. What protection had they moreover that the law in the French colonies would not be changed? It had been said that the object of the arrangement was to induce the French to desist from the practice of taking the blacks from the coast of Africa, nominally as labourers but practically as slaves; but with all his sympathy for the Africans, he was not prepared to relieve them by the sacrifice of our own subjects in India. He would never consent to subject our own people, who ought to he our constant care, to the very miseries from which we desired to free the blacks of Africa. He did not believe the treaty, if concluded, could be carried into effect without the assistance of the Legislative Council of India, and he had no doubt that body possessed sufficient independence of spirit to bestow upon the Natives that protection which Her Majesty's Government were apparently not disposed to afford. Her Majesty had no power to compel the Government of India either to pass a new or to alter an old law; and it must, therefore, rest with the Government of India to consider whether they could obey the directions of the home Government with safety to the State and to the interests of the people committed to their charge. As the law now stood, the Indian Government could, without further legislation, refuse to permit the embarcation of emigrants in any ship; and he hoped they would retain that power in their hands. The home Government could not deprive them of that power, except by a measure sanctioned by Parliament, which he hoped and trusted would never he agreed to. He repeated his conviction that it would be humanly impossible to insure the same protection to the emigrants in a French as in our own colony. It could only be attempted by constant interference, which must necessarily lead to contention between the two countries. He trusted that the feeling which the proposition of this treaty would excite in India would be such as to compel the Government to bring the subject before Parliament in the shape of a Bill,
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  and he was confident that if they did, it would be rejected.
  EARL GREYagreed with the noble Earl who had just spoken, that if the proposed agreement were carried out care must be taken to guard against the danger of abuse. He believed that the present system of Coolie emigration from India to the Mauritius had conferred a benefit upon both emigrants and colonists. The enormous increase in the production of sugar in the Mauritius was entirely due to the well-regulated system of bringing emigrants to that colony; and that it was advantageous to the Coolies themselves was proved by the large sums of money they were able to carry back to India, and their satisfaction with the treatment they received was such that it was no uncommon thing for them to bring their friends and relatives from India to join them in the colony. This plan of emigration did good to India in another way, because when the emigrants returned they brought with them a knowledge of a better system of agriculture, and improved modes of labour, which they would not fail gradually to introduce upon their own soil, and habits of perseverance and industry which have a beneficial effect on the inhabitants of their own countries. He was ready to admit that we had not the means of enforcing the same protection to the emigrants in a French colony that we had in one of our own; but he thought that the powers which we possessed of terminating the treaty at eighteen months' notice was a sufficient answer to the noble Earl's objections, because the knowledge that that power would be exercised would render the French colonists very careful how they did anything to excite our indignation, and induce us to put it into operation. The appointment of agents on the spot, the presence of English Consuls in the French colonies, to whom the emigrants were secured access, was also another security for the good treatment of the emigrants; and, on the whole, he felt the system was one that ought to be fairly tried. He might mention that he had reason to believe, from persons who had visited the interior of the French colonies, that the labourers, when they arrived there, were, on the whole, well treated. He would approve of the plan only on one condition. Her Majesty's Government ought to insist, before a single labourer went to the French colonies from India, that most atrocious system of opening places for the reception of slaves on

  1927
  the coast of Africa, under the direct authority of the French Government, should be at once abandoned. The more he heard of the working of this system the more he was convinced of its atrocity. The French Government opened what they called "depots of industry" on the African coast. They bought the slaves who were brought down to them. For the purpose of supplying these depots, slave-hunts were instituted, and industrious populations in the interior were liable to be kidnapped, and hundreds and thousands were killed in wars in order to bring a few hundreds to the French depots. The French Government were at this moment the great slave-traders of Africa, and Her Majesty's Government would desert their duty if they did not take care that, before the French Government were allowed to obtain the advantages given under this treaty, the most complete security should be taken for the abandonment of this most atrocious system.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONthought that there were one or two points on which it was most important they should have explanation. He wished to know whether there was any stringent stipulations for the re-conveyance of the Coolies back to their own country; for if there were not the result would be exceedingly unfortunate. His noble Friend used an expression which created great apprehension in his mind. He alluded to the amount of space on board the ship which conveyed the Coolies. In the case of an English ship it was one emigrant to two tons, but in French ships it was two emigrants to two tons. He understood that the matter was under consideration, hut he was afraid that our regulations were to be relaxed to meet the French. The contracts with the Coolies were said to be of five years' duration; he wished to know whether they would be absolute contracts, or whether power would be given to the Coolies after three years' service, to change their masters. He thought that the Government would not be doing its duty if it did not throw around the Coolies every possible protection in their power.
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, that the noble Earl who had condemned this treaty (the Earl of Ellenborough), stated that he now heard of it for the first time; he (the Duke of Newcastle) was not, therefore, surprised at the views which the noble Earl had expressed, for when he, too, first heard of it his impressions were very
  1928
  nufavourable, and he had not sufficiently appreciated its advantages. The noble Earl stated that although the law in the French colonies might be perfectly good at the present moment, it was in the power of France to alter that law, and to render it less favourable to the Coolies. But the possibility of any such alteration was obviated by the treaty. It was ascertained that the law of Martinique was as favourable to the Coolies as the law in the British colonies, and the treaty contained a provision that the laws of the other French colonies should be in this respect assimilated to that of Martinique. It was therefore impossible for the French Government, without violating the treaty and committing a breach of faith, to alter the law in a manner unfavourable to the Coolies. The noble Earl also declared that he was not ready to sacrifice the subjects of Great Britain in India, in order to save the blacks in Africa. He was astonished to hear this opinion, in which he heartily concurred, put forward as an objection, because although the treaty arose out of the attempt on the part of France to revive the slave trade on the coast of Africa, yet it must not be forgotten that there existed a state of things in the French colonies which might justify the treaty apart from what had taken place on the African coast. In the Island of Reunion, out of 69,000 labourers not less than 49,000 were Coolies The noble Earl, therefore, should not forget that the French had the power of introducing British subjects into their colonies without our permission, and that at present we had no power of interfering for their protection through our Consuls. But by the Treaty we obtained a better position for them, or at least as good as for emigrants to our own colonies. Pains had been taken to ascertain the condition and state of the law regarding labourers in two of the French colonies—Martinique and Reunion—and the reports thus obtained were certainly favourable as to the treatment of the labourers. The great difficulty, no doubt, lay in the colonies themselves. As regarded the depots in India, and the transmission of the Coolies across the seas, the English Government had sufficient means of securing that the treatment of the Coolies who emigrated to French colonies should be identical with that of the emigrants to British colonies. Under the treaty provision was taken that the Coolies should not only have free access to our

  1929
  Consuls, but that the French authorities should be obliged to give ample returns to our Consuls of the number of Coolies in each colony, the time of their service, the mortality among them, and a very considerable number of details which gave a fair, if not entire, security for the treatment of these emigrants. His noble Friend opposite (Earl Grey) said, he assented to the treaty on one condition—namely, that the emigration from Africa now carried on under the French Government should entirely cease. That condition was not introduced into the treaty, as they were met when they proposed it by the argument that it would be an indignity to France to interfere with its municipal law; but if there was faith in men they were entitled to assume on promises made apart from the treaty that emigration, so far as regarded the East Coast of Africa, would cease immediately; but that as regarded the West Coast, in consequence of an existing contract, it would not cease till about a year from this time. His noble Friend who spoke last asked whether security had been taken for return passages to the Coolies. His reply was that an express provision was made in the treaty to that effect. His noble Friend also asked whether the five years' contract with the Coolies was identical with our own, and whether there was a limitation of three years. In respect to this he might state that on some minor points there were slight differences in the French contract from our own, but these were all compensated for by corresponding concessions. His impression was that the period of five years in the French contract was absolute. With regard to the space allowed to each Coolie in the French vessels, it would not be so great as had hitherto been allowed in our emigration ships. Our Emigration Commissioners had for the last two years been considering whether, in the ca3e of ships conveying emigrants to our own colonies, sonic diminution of the space now given—which was twelve superficial feet for each adult, and six feet between decks—should not take place; and in the case of the French ships some diminution had, therefore, been admitted from our present standard. This was not a concession to the French against the convictions of Her Majesty's Government, but one that flowed from the suggestion of our own Emigration Commissioners. He could assure their Lordships that everything had been done that was
  1930
  deemed necessary to insure the comfort of the Coolies, and that the operations of the whole project would be watched with the most careful attention. The treaty, it was arranged, might be terminated on a notice being given of eighteen months.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHcalled the attention of the noble Earl to the practical effect which giving notice of the termination of the treaty would have upon the Coolies. It was clear that after the treaty terminated the Coolies in a French colony would cease to have the protection which it extended to them; and it might happen that many Coolies who had entered into the five years' contract would have to spend some years of the period without the security they had counted upon enjoying.
  House adjourned at Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.