Lords Sitting of 6 February 1860

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—la Royal Naval School; Companies (1860). 2a Court of Chancery.
COUNTY COURTS.

  RETURN'S MOVED FOR.
  LORD BROUGHAM, in moving for Returns connected with County Courts, called the attention of the House and of his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack to the enormous amount of business which was performed, and he believed satisfactorily performed, by the Judges of those Courts. From 1854 to 1857, three years, there had been an increase in the number of plaints from 536,000 to 744,000. The number of causes tried, and where the parties complaining obtained their purpose, either by a judgment or by the money having been paid into court, had increased from 250,000 to very nearly 400,000. The sums received had increased from £1,500,000 to nearly £2,000,000. The number of suits for sums between £20 and
  552
  £50 constituted by far the larger proportion of this increase, and these were the causes in which the Superior Courts had concurrent jurisdiction in point of fact. For lower sums the number of causes had not increased in the same proportion, but still they had very largely increased. By the last Returns the number of causes actually tried, and where the parties had obtained the fruits of the trials, amounted to 400,000, and the sums actually received to £1,200,000. He had tried to discover how much of this was for causes under £20, and how much for causes between £20 and £50, and on no calculation that he could make did the amount received for the larger class of causes amount to a less sum than £200,000 of the £1,200,000. This was an important consideration with respect to the labours of the County Court Judges as compared with the Judges of the Superior Courts. There were ten circuits over England and Wales, and two in the metropolis, in the course of the year. The number of causes adjudicated at these circuits in the course of the year were about 1,200, but the amount covered by these causes he had no means of ascertaining; but they must be much less—greatly less—than the lower of the sums he had mentioned as adjudicated upon in the County Courts—the sum of £200,000; he had no doubt at all that they were very far below the larger sum. Under these circumstances he looked to his noble and learned Friend to assist him in his endeavours to extend the jurisdiction of these Courts still further, not only by adding equity jurisdiction to them, but also by extending their jurisdiction beyond the sum of £50. He would also wish to call the attention of his noble and learned Friend to the consideration that the labour of the County Court Judges had very greatly increased of late years; and it was said that they did not afford such relief to the Superior Courts as had been expected, and in consequence of changes in procedure the labour of the latter had increased, for no doubt the number of causes tried had diminished; the change which permitted two counsel to plead for each party had greatly increased the time occupied in the trial. The change, he believed, had tended greatly to the furtherance of justice and to the elucidation of the cause before the Court and jury, but it caused considerable delay. On the other hand, he considered that the alteration he introduced by his Bill of

  553
  1851, by which parties were allowed, and in some cases compelled, to give evidence in their own causes, had tended greatly to shorten the proceedings, to diminish the number of causes, and to lessen the time consumed in each case. The noble and learned Lord concluded by moving an Address for—
  "Return of the Total Number of Plaints entered in each County Court for Sums above £20 and not exceeding £50, from the 14th August, 1850 to the 31st December, 1857; and also a like Return of the Number of such Plaints in each Year from the 1st January 1858 to the 31st December 1858, and from the 1st January 1859 to the 31st December, 1859."

RIFLE VOLUNTEER CORPS.

  QUESTION.
  LORD VIVIANrose to ask a question as to the intention of the Government with respect to the farther encouragement of Rifle and Artillery Volunteer corps. The noble Lord accompanied his question with certain remarks, which, from his Lordship speaking with his back to the gallery, were totally inaudible, though their purport may be gathered from the reply.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, Her Majesty's Government fully concurred with his noble Friend in the high appreciation he entertained of the loyal and patriotic spirit which had prompted such large numbers of the community voluntarily to come forward and offer their services to Her Majesty in Rifle and Artillery corps. Those offers had been made under very remarkable circumstances. They had not been made, as in the time of the old Volunteers, under the immediate apprehension of war or invasion. They had been made calmly and deliberately, with the view to supplement the defences of the country, the necessity of which had been pressed on the public mind; and they had been made, too, in a manner which, so far, he thought, encouraged the hope that the Volunteer force would become in the course of time to a great extent a permanent institution of the country. But, in reference to the Question put by his noble Friend, it must be borne in mind that the nature of Volunteer corps, as they were now being raised, was essentially that they came forward and offered their unpaid, voluntary services to the country; and it would be inconsistent with their present character to become a charge on the public revenue. That, he believed, was the principle on which it was
  554
  originally intended by the late Government that these corps should be established, and it was also the view of Her Majesty's present Government. Her Majesty's present Government, indeed, had gone beyond what was originally intended by the late Government with regard to the assistance to be rendered to those corps. At an early period after the present Government came into office, his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War intimated an intention on the part of the Government to supply rifles to 25 per cent of the effective volunteers. Since then the percentage had been gradually raised, until at the present time the possession of a rifle had been guaranteed to every effective member of a Volunteer corps. But when his noble Friend went further than that, and suggested that the Government should supply the volunteers with uniforms, his noble Friend asked the Government to do that which was inconsistent with the character of this force, which was a force that came forward offering voluntary services to the Crown, and to which the Government had thought it right to supply the arms necessary for its efficiency. He was unable to assure his noble Friend that Her Majesty's Government intended to supply clothing to the volunteers. It had appeared to his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War that a more material service would be rendered to the volunteers, and one more consistent with the origin of the force, if the Government were to assist them in making themselves efficient in their drill and military instruction. He was therefore authorized to state that the Government have it in contemplation to afford assistance in the way of obtaining the services of paid and efficient adjutants, which would be more valuable assistance than that of clothing the volunteers; because they will be then enabled to secure the services of military officers well and thoroughly instructed, and who will be able to conduct their drill on sound principles. Having regard to the position which this Volunteer movement had now assumed-embracing as it did, he was happy to be able to state, between 60,000 and 70,000 men at this time, and the number was increasing every day—the question now was, how such a force could be properly organized and instructed. For that purpose an Inspector of Volunteers, Colonel M'Murdo, an officer of experience, had already been appointed, who was to be assisted by six Assistant Inspectors, who

  555
  would take different districts of the country, and visit the various corps, and superintend their organization from time to time. A plan was also now in contemplation for arranging the corps throughout the country into battalions—interfering, however, as little as possible with their special arrangements and local organizations,—each of which battalions would be provided with a military officer as adjutant. With regard to the Artillery Volunteers, his noble Friend advanced a further claim than he urged in the case of the Rifle Volunteers. For the Rifles his noble Friend was content to ask for clothing, targets, and ammunition; but for the Artillery Volunteers he claimed, in addition, that they should be paid for each day's drill. That certainly appeared to be inconsistent with the principles on which those corps were being raised, besides instituting a distinction of an individous character between Artillery and Rifle Volunteers. The Government already afforded valuable assistance to the Artillery Volunteers; they supplied them with guns complete, with instruction, and with ammunition; but to go beyond that, and pay them, seemed to him (Earl de Grey and Ripon) to be wholly inconsistent with the character of the force. Did his noble Friend suppose the Government would pay those men for their day's drill under the existing Act of Parliament, according to which any one of them might withdraw from the service after giving fourteen days' notice? Surely it was impossible to do that, seeing that such corps might at any time be dissolved after fourteen days' notice. He (Earl De Grey and Ripon) earnestly trusted that the measures which had been taken and were in contemplation by the Government were such as would give to this force a permanent character. It was highly desirable that these corps should become part of the military institutions of the country. Besides the interest which attached to the service of the Artillery and Rifle Volunteers, if they who joined these corps attended as far as might be to their military duties and training, he believed, from what he had seen and heard, that their efficiency might be raised to a very high pitch indeed under the voluntary system. Very many of the regiments formed within the last few months, by constant attention to drill had attained such a state of efficiency and aptitude as to excite the surprise and admiration of military men of
  556
  high rank and experience who had seen them. He believed the same patriotic spirit in which the Volunteer Movement had originated would continue to maintain it and lead to its being eventually made a permanent institution of the country. He believed the measures taken, and to be taken, by the Government in aid of that result would be sufficient for the purpose, and were the only measures to which recourse could be had, consistently with the character of the force and the principle on which it had been formed. He trusted the large force which had been raised, and which was receiving fresh augmentation daily, would be found of the greatest utility, and go far to induce the feeling that we had a reserve in this country on which we might to a great extent rely for the protection of our shores in the event of their being threatened with danger, and which, in such times, might occupy our garrisons and enable us to set free our regular troops for service in the field.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHremarked, that no reply had been given with reference to the Government finding drill sergeants.
  LORD WENSLEYDALEsaid, he had served in the Volunteers fifty years ago, and he was promoting the formation of a corps in his neighbourhood; but it was a great tax on them to pay the drill sergeants.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, it was not at present the intention of the Government to pay drill sergeants for every company of Volunteers. There was a very large number of companies throughout the country. The Government hoped, however, that when the Adjutants were generally appointed they would themselves be able to superintend the drill of each corps. It was intended that sergeants of the line, discharged with the consent of their commanding officers, should be allowed to reckon their time of service with Volunteer corps for pension at the rate of one month for every two months' service with the Volunteer corps.

  THE COMMERCIAL TREATY WITH FRANCE.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, the greatest possible anxiety existed amongst commercial men to know the terms of the treaty which had lately been entered into by Her Majesty with the Emperor of the French. The treaty was

  557
  ratified on Saturday last, and was to have been brought before the other House that evening with the Budget, but an unfortunate circumstance had prevented the Chancellor of the Exchequer making his financial statement. He, however, could not see why that circumstance should prevent the production of the treaty, and he hoped the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) would not object to lay it on their Lordships' table. But if any reason did exist for the non-production of the treaty at present, which he confessed he did not see, perhaps the noble Earl would state whether the summary of the treaty which had appeared in L' Indépendence Beige, and been republished by some London journals, gave, on the whole, a fair and correct representation of its provisions.
  EARL GRANVILLEregretted that the noble Earl had not given earlier notice of his Question, as in that case he might have been pressed to give a satisfactory answer; but at present all he could state in answer was that, not being a subscriber to the Indépendance Beige, he could not say whether the résumé referred to was correct or not. The unfortunate indisposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer having rendered it necessary to postpone the financial statement, it was thought best to defer the production of the treaty until the whole subject could be brought under the notice of Parliament.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he could not acquiesce in the doctrine that it was necessary to postpone the production of an important paper because the Chancellor of the Exchequer was unable to make his financial statement. No doubt if it were produced beforehand it would take off the gloss from a portion of the facts which the right hon. Gentleman had to announce, but the public advantage in reference to the discussion upon the Budget itself, as well as the state of public affairs generally, were in favour of having so important a treaty laid on the table at the earliest possible period, in order that there might be ample time for the fullest consideration of it in all its bearings—financial, commercial, and political. He therefore hoped that if the treaty were in the possession of the Government, they would not wait until the Budget was brought forward before making it known to their Lordships.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, however desirable it might he that the treaty should be considered without delay, not only in its commercial, hut in its political aspect,
  558
  it was also clearly very desirable that the public should be enabled to judge of all the facts laid before them at one and the same time.
  LORD MONTEAGLEthought that whatever information they got with regard to the treaty should be complete, and not in a shape which would only puzzle and mislead.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow half-past Ten o'clock.