§ EARL GRANVILLEgave notice that he would, to-morrow evening, move a Resolution of Urgency in the case of the Savings Banks Bill, in order that his noble Friend, the Lord Privy Seal, might then move the second reading.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREput it to the noble Earl (Earl Granville) whether this was fair treatment to the House, after the vote of Monday night. Many noble Lords, understanding that the effect of that vote was to postpone the Bill to another Session, had left town.
§ LORD REDESDALEthought that if the Government intended to renew the proceedings with regard to the Savings Banks Bill, and if there had been any intention of not considering the division of Monday night a final one, they ought to have given notice to that effect on the day after the division was taken. The Bill had now been removed from the Minutes. [Earl GRANVILLE: No.] The general understanding had been that the same course would be taken in respect of the Savings Banks Bill as had been adopted in the case of the Stipendiary Magistrates Bill. He had seen with surprise in a newspaper a charge against the House of having thrown out a Money Bill, by refusing to proceed with this Savings Banks Bill. The newspaper to which he referred declared that the House of Lords, encouraged by the Prime Minister, had made another aggression; for they had ventured a second time to throw out a Money Bill sent up by the Commons. He must protest against the use of such language in reference to their Lordships' privileges. The Bill was not considered to be a Money Bill. It was in no way connected with taxation; but was to encourage the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do what the Report of a Committee, which sat in 1858, said ought not to be done.
§ EARL GRANVILLEsuggested that it would be inconvenient to enter into a discussion of the merits of the Bill, when it was not at the moment before their Lordships.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREthought that, considering the division come to by their Lordships on Monday night, the noble Earl (Earl Granville) ought to have given his notice on Tuesday. The noble Earl had not adopted that course, but came down to the House on Thursday, and proposed for the following day the revival of a question taken into consideration and decided on Monday. Noble Lords had left town in the belief that the Bill was at an end; and he must say that the effect of the noble Earl's notice would be to take the Opposition by surprise.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that the course proposed to be taken by his noble Friend, the President of the Council, was perfectly regular; because the Bill was unquestionably now before the House. The Bill was now precisely in the same position as if it had been read a first time; and no day had been appointed for the second reading. There was nothing in the Standing Orders in the way of his noble Friend's proposal.
THE EARL OF DESARTsaid, the Bill did not stand in the Minutes as for their Lordships' consideration; so that, strictly speaking, it was out of the Minutes. He thought it was scarcely justifiable for Her Majesty's Government to take advantage 1349 of the weak state of the Opposition benches in order to press the measure.
§ LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that the Government were bound not merely to make out a case for suspending the Resolution and reading the Bill the second time this Session, hut also for reading it the second time to-morrow. He thought such notice should have been given as would at least have avoided the imputation of unfairness. Certainly if the noble Earl, on Monday evening, had thought of asking the House to reconsider its decision, they ought to have given immediate notice of their intention. He would ask whether there was any reason for taking this discussion tomorrow instead of any other day? It was notorious that they had plenty of time before the close of the Session in which to discuss this Bill.
§ EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that complaint of the course which he proposed had been made in two quarters. It was objected that Her Majesty's Government had not given notice of their intention immediately after the vote of Monday night. He thought that a moment's consideration would convince their Lordships that the complaint was without foundation. The question of this Bill being considered was a very serious one; and it would have been very wrong for the representatives of the Government in the House to take any step in consequence of the vote of Monday night without full consideration, and without communication with the whole of the Cabinet. There had been no opportunity for such communication until Wednesday. The intention of the Government had been communicated to the leading Member of the Opposition in their Lordships' House at the earliest moment. [Lord REDESDALE: To whom?] To the Earl of Derby. Under those circumstances be (Earl Granville) felt himself perfectly free from any charge of delay. As to the charge of unfairness brought against him by the noble Lord (Lord Monteagle) he did not think it necessary to reply to it; but he would say he should not be inclined to change the course which he intended to adopt in order to guide himself by the advice of a noble Lord who had induced the House to come to the unfortunate decision at which they had arrived on Monday night on a statement that the Government wore ignorant of the Bill which they had introduced, and that he alone had real knowledge on the subject, he (Lord Monteagle) having all the while neglected to make himself master of 1350 what the existing law was, and of what the Bill proposed to do. He was not inclined to take from the noble Lord couusel as to the course which either he (Earl Granville) or Her Majesty's Government ought to adopt.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYdid not wonder at his noble Friend (Earl Granville) feeling angry that the subject should be discussed. It would no doubt be more convenient for the noble Earl not to have any discussion upon it. It appeared from the Journals that a Member of the other House had, in the first place, disputed the right of their Lordships to say that they would not proceed with the second reading of Bills coming from the House of Commons after a certain day, and then said that he would bring the subject before the other House. [Order!] There was a general feeling abroad that the Savings Banks Bill had been brought in for the purpose of enabling the Chancellor of the Exchequer to dabble in the public funds and to make use of the money of the savings banks in connection with the new loan for fortifications that was about to be contracted, lie asked the noble Earl whether it was wise, in so hasty a manner, and without due consideration, in renewing the alarm throughout the country that the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended by means of this measure to make use of the money of the savings banks. He did not hesitate to say that the notice of the noble Earl at that moment would have an injurious effect upon the public securities.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLhoped that tomorrow they would be able to disabuse the mind of the noble Marquess as to its being the intention of this measure to empower the Chancellor of the Exchequer to dabble in the public funds. The notice given that night by his noble Friend had been decided upon by the Government after the fullest consideration, under the conviction—which he himself entertained very strongly—that their Lordships were not fully aware of the import and consequences of the vote to which they came on Monday night. His noble Friend had no alternative, under the circumstances, but to persevere in his Motion for the suspension of the Sessional Order, so as to allow the Bill to be read the second time.
§ LORD REDESDALEsaid, that this was a question of very serious importance with regard to their proceedings. The decision at which the House arrived the other evening amounted virtually to the rejection of 1351 the Bill. ["No, no!"] It was equal to dividing against the second reading of a Bill when they declared that they did not regard the measure of such urgency as to require immediate consideration. After the result of the division everybody must have supposed that the Bill was dropped; yet, upon a single day's notice, their Lordships were to he asked to rescind their Resolution, and that, too, at a time when it was well known that each day the attendance in the House became weaker and weaker. The noble Earl the President of the Council would, of course, follow his own discretion in this matter; but he felt it his duty to represent what he thought everybody must feel—namely, that the House would be subjected to an undue surprise if this Motion were proceeded with to-morrow.
THE EARL OF LUCANinquired when the communication which had been referred to was made to the noble Earl the leader of the Opposition.
§ EARL GRANVILLEsaid a communication had been made that morning on the part of the Government to Lord Derby.