Lords Sitting of 14 August 1860

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Consolidated Fund (£10,000,000); Spirits.
3a Chancery Evidence Commission; European Forces (India); Poor Law Board Continuance; East India Stock Transfer, &c.

SYRIA.—QUESTION.
LORD STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE: My Lords, I have given private notice to my noble Friend the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs of certain Questions which I wish to put to him before your Lordships proceed to the business of the day. The first relates to the state of affairs in Syria. I wish to ask my noble Friend whether any orders have been given directing one of the armed vessels belonging to Her Majesty's squadron in the Mediterranean to proceed to Smyrna, and other large towns on the coast of the Archipelago, for the protection of British subjects and property during the present disturbed state of Syria, and during the apprehended danger of other outbreaks in other districts of that country. I received only yesterday a letter from Smyrna which, although it is of a private kind, goes so much to the point that in justification of my question I will venture to read it to your Lordships. My correspondent, residing in Smyrna, writes in these terms:—
"Smyrna, August 3.
"The alarm here is still great, and I should be glad to see a vessel of war. I have no fear of the Mahomedan residents of Smyrna taking the initiative in any move against the Christians, for they are in a minority. What we have to fear is a fire, or any dispute between Turks and Greeks, in which eventually there might be fearful results. We have also another cause for alarm. The migratory races in the interior amount in all within the pashalick to 110,000. Throughout the Mahomedan population in the interior there is much discontent against the Turkish Government. Should any move take place, it is impossible to say whether a spirit of fanaticism or jealousy might not lead them against the Christians. The consequence of the alarm is a very great check to trade, and the fear which is felt at Constantinople does not improve matters. I hope the storm will blow over; still, I cannot refrain from repeating that I should he most happy to see a vessel of war here, not only for the protection of the interests of nearly 5,000 under British protection in and near Smyrna, but also as a check upon the evil-disposed. When the outbreak in Syria was first known vessels of war should have been sent to all the principal ports in Turkey. At all events, one should have been sent here, where there is so large an amount of British interest at stake."
It is not at Smyrna, alone that alarm is expressed. In a letter which I have received to-day from Constantinople, dated the 1st of August, there occur these expressions, which I have extracted as briefly as possible:—
"Another cause of mischief here is the strong impression that Europe will never unite together against the mismanagement of Turkish Administration. But if the Turkish Ministers were once to see at least England and France agree together on this point, you would see them act quite differently… There could not, I believe, be a better or more justifiable opportunity for making a last effort to save this country, which is sure otherwise to perish, than since the last awful occurrences in Syria have fixed public attention to such an extent. Any attempt again to patch up things in the usual diplomatic way will, you may rest assured, end in no practical result, and only postpone the evil moment.… The public mind has been very much excited of late by passing events, and strong apprehensions are still entertained of some eventual outbreak in the capital. Poverty and discontent prevail more or less almost among every class and community. One cannot tell what may be the result of all this without some prompt and efficient change."
I think that the language of these letters, which come from persons of respectability and much experience, justifies me in attaching importance to the answer which I may receive from my noble Friend. It also justifies the opinion which I have already expressed, that these disturbances in Syria are not referable to local causes alone, but are immediately connected with the general condition of the Turkish empire, the state of the public mind, and the weakness of the policy of the Government, arising from a long habit of vicious administration. And I cannot refrain from saying that a very serious responsibility will devolve upon Her Majesty's Government if occasion is not taken to press upon the Turkish Government the adoption of that system of reforms to which they are pledged in every possible manner—pledged in honour as well as by interest—and to their own subjects as well as to Europe at large. I have already expressed my firm conviction that, unless some stringent measures, such at least as are within the law of nations and the limits of moral and diplomatic action, are adopted with more vigour than has hitherto been shown, it will be impossible for the Turkish Government to preserve its authority so as to prevent the recurrence of such disturturbances as those in Syria, or of events still more important, not only to Turkey, but to Europe. I do hope that when the measures which are now being taken for
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restoring tranquillity in Syria have had their effect, they will extend to the prevention of a repetition of such occurrences as have recently taken place. I hope measures will be adopted which will interpose a barrier between the races, the contention between whom has in part given rise to these events, and which will at the same time prove beneficial to the general interests of the Turkish Empire. I do not hesitate to express my opinion that, if circumstances appear favourable to the measure, it would be very desirable that the contending tribes should no longer be allowed to occupy, in the form of a mixed population, the same villages where, from their constant proximity, feuds are engendered, and the Turkish officers have opportunities for interference or non-interference, both of which are equally disastrous. It is satisfactory to observe that measures, apparently of an efficient kind, have been adopted at Damascus; but there are circumstances which make mo apprehend that if care is not taken those measures will stop with the mere repression of the local disturbances. In the letter from Smyrna from which I read an extract, it is stated that Kurschid Pasha had arrived there, not, as one would have expected after misconduct which had been so favourable to the extension of these atrocities, under arrest or in any disgrace, but in possession of all his honours, and with his flag flying on the boat which took him on shore, and that he was passing his time apparently without the slightest anxiety or any apprehension of punishment for his misconduct. One cannot help seeing in that a mirror of the state of the ministerial mind at Constantinople; and I must say that it seems to me to be a reason why Her Majesty's Government, and the other Powers who are taking part in the suppression of these disturbances, should be careful not only to put them down for the present, but to adopt comprehensive measures to prevent their recurrence. This is not the occasion on which to go further into the subject; but the circumstances are so important that I should have failed in my duty if I had not addressed these few words to your Lordships.
LORD WODEHOUSE: I am not able to state that positive instructions have been sent to the Admiral in command in the Mediterranean to despatch a vessel to Smyrna. It is true that at that place, as at a great number of other towns through-

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out the Turkish Empire, there was and still is great apprehension. What has been done has been to send Admiral Martin with a strong squadron to the Syrian coast with instructions to give all the assistance in his power to the efforts made for the protection of life and the restoration of tranquillity. He will naturally direct his ships to those points where they are most required, and any order to send a vessel to a particular place might disorganize plans which will be better formed and carried out by him on the spot than they could be by orders from home. At the same time I quite admit the importance of keeping a watch upon what may take place at Smyrna; because that town is a very important one, and from the number of Christians it contains, and the agitation which prevails among the neighbouring-population, is in a peculiar position. I may take this opportunity of stating that my noble Friend at the head of the Admiralty has informed mo that the squadron which is now actually upon the coast of Syria consists of the Exmouth, the Marl-borough, the Victor Emmanuel, and the Neptune, line-of-battle-ships; the Ganges and the Liffey, frigates; and the Hawke, Racoon, and Caradoc, corvettes. My noble Friend having alluded to Kurschid Pasha, I may state that the most recent intelligence which we have received leads us to think that Fuad Pasha has taken measures for causing an inquiry to be made into his conduct. He would not allow him to land at Beyrout, and Kurschid was, as we understand, about to be sent to Constantinople under arrest. No doubt, the conduct of Kurschid Pasha was more than suspicious, and requires strict investigation; and, if it should turn out that he is guilty of those acts of which he is accused, severe punishment. As regards the general state of Syria, and the measures to be adopted, at present all the energies of the Turkish authorities and of the Allies of the Porte must be directed to the restoration of tranquillity. When peace has been restored it will be the proper time for considering the various plans to which my noble Friend has referred for settling affairs upon a better basis. With respect to the reforms which both the present and previous Governments have pressed upon the Porte, what we want is not only that they should be conceded on paper by the Sultan's Ministers, but that some vigorous and energetic measures should be adopted of a kind calculated to restore confidence in the
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public mind and to produce a better state of finance. Until more vigour and determination of purpose is shown by the Turkish Government, the concessions, valuable as they may appear, will not produce the results which are desired.
THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBYsaid, their Lordships were much indebted to his noble Friend (Lord Stratford de Redcliffe) for keeping their attention alive to a subject of such profound interest, and one with regard to which nobody could speak with greater authority. On a recent occasion, when this matter was referred to in that House in his absence, a disposition seemed to have been evinced rather to view the affairs of Syria in a sectarian spirit. Nothing could be more unfortunate, both for the result that we all desired and for our own character throughout the world, than that we should appear to consider these most grievous events with any sectarian partiality or political jealousy.
LORD STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE: I have to thank my noble Friend for the candid manner in which he has answered my first question. But I must be allowed to say that I think attention ought to be paid, not only to the requirements of Syria, but also to the protection needed for other parts of the Archipelago. If I may take the liberty of offering a remark on the Convention which has been laid on the table, I cannot but express the regret I personally feel that more care was not taken to combine the two objects which Her Majesty's Government and others must desire to see accomplished—namely, that the Turks themselves should he obliged to put down the disturbances in the first instance, and should have a sufficient opportunity for doing so. For, although I for one, do think that European troops might be trusted in Syria on this occasion if necessary, and hope that a sentiment of sound judgment and true honours may direct their operations, yet every one is aware that this is a necessity which ought, if possible, to be avoided. I am of opinion that additional chances might have been given in favour of avoiding that necessity if at the outset the Turks had been called upon to put down the outbreak and to punish its authors. A short time might have been granted for that purpose, and in the event of their failing to carry out the requisite measures, then European troops might have come in with greater effect and greater propriety. Even in that case a

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risk might still have accompanied the intervention, owing to the delicate nature of the emergency, and the chances that other circumstances may arise to alter the position of an army of occupation. I must say I think it would have been better if that course had been adopted. However, it is very satisfactory to find that progress has been made, and that a degree of energy and efficient action has been employed to put an end to these disturbances.

SYRIA.—QUESTION.

  GREECE.—REPORT OF FINANCIAL COMMISSION.—QUESTION.
  LORD STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE: My Lords, I now pass to the other Question which I wash to put, which relates to the affairs of Greece. Tour Lordships are probably aware that there have been questions for some time past between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of Greece, arising out of the loan which the three protecting Powers made to that country some years ago, and the arrears of interest, which have greatly accumulated. If I remember right a Mixed Commission was appointed some few years since, and I understand that within the last few months the result of that Commission has been sent to Her Majesty's Government in the form of a Report, which was previously communicated to the Greek Government. Considering the interest which has always attached to the Greek kingdom as being the creation of the protecting Powers, it is impossible not to feel a lively concern in the affairs of a nation so remarkable from its character, its antecedents, and the activity with which its commerce is carried on. It seems to me very desirable that the Report of that Commission should be laid before this House, with the view of being-made known to the public at large. It would, therefore, give me great satisfaction to learn that Her Majesty's Government will direct these papers to be presented to us in the course of the present Session, or, if that cannot be done, that they will, at least, be placed in our hands at the next meeting of Parliament. I cannot refrain from taking this opportunity of saying that I have some knowledge of the manner in which the Minister who has been principally intrusted with the management of this affair has discharged his duties, and that it has afforded me the greatest satisfaction to find that a gentleman of his high character and accomplish-
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  ments, who was well known in former times as a Member of the House of Commons (Sir Thomas Wise), should have been chiefly instrumental in bringing this matter to a conclusion. It would give me additional gratification to hear that his labours have received the approbation of Her Majesty's Government, and that his exertions will be so followed up as to produce that improvement in Greece, and that stimulus to its further progress, which we must all desire to witness. I beg, therefore, to ask my noble Friend, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to communicate to the Houses of Parliament during this Session, the Report, with its annexed papers, of the Mixed Commission appointed to inquire into the state of the Greek finances with reference to the loan and arrears of interest for which the Hellenic Government is answerable to England, France, and Russia?
  LORD WODEHOUSE: The Report of the Commission on the financial affairs of Greece has already been presented to the other House of Parliament; and there can be no objection to laying it also on your Lordships' table. The annexed papers are, however, very voluminous; and it was not thought advisable to produce them also; but, of course, there will be no objection to lay them before your Lordships, if desired. The Report is a really important and interesting document. I cannot avoid taking this opportunity of observing that my noble Friend has paid a very just tribute to the exertions of Sir Thomas Wise, who, I am happy to state, was most cordially and ably supported by the co-operation of his Russian and French colleagues. This Commission for examining into the finances of Greece was entered into by the three Powers, with a degree of good feeling and earnestness of purpose which reflected the highest credit on them all; and I am quite sure that if the Greek Government only carries out the reforms which they have recommended, it will confer lasting benefits on its country. It was suggested that a certain sum—£36,000—should be paid by Greece, year by year, towards the extinction of the loan; and I think that, as a proof of the solvent condition of the Government of that country, it is very desirable that such a course should be pursued. But what the Commissioners had most at heart was, that the Greek Government should execute the reforms they have recommended after the most careful investigation of the whole financial

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  position of Greece. If those recommendations arc honestly and sincerely followed out, I repeat my confidence that Greece may look forward to a degree of prosperity which has never yet been witnessed since she was created an independent State.
  LORD STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFEwas very glad to hear the animated tone of his noble Friend in respect to internal reforms in the kingdom of Greece. He would rejoice to see reforms pressed with the same spirit upon the Turkish Government.

  GAS METROPOLIS BILL.

    REPORT.
    Amendments reported (according to Order).
    On Motion that the Report be received.
    LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, he desired to see the provisions of this measure made to accord with its professed object—which it certainly did not at present—namely, the advantage and protection of the consumers of gas.
    LORD WYNFORDsaid, he had proposed an important Amendment in this Bill, but was told by the Chairman of Committees that the object aimed at had been secured by another measure—he referred to the means which were necessary for securing the accuracy of gas-meters. It was no use appointing an Inspector as to the quality of the gas or fixing its price unless the Inspector had power to examine the meters and see that they were in a just and proper state. Scarcely one in fifty of the gas consumers in town knew anything about gas-meters, and they were exposed to be charged very much more than they were fairly liable to pay if the meters were not correctly kept. It was easy in this way at once to raise the price of gas from 2s. or 2s. 6d. to 4s. 6d per 1000 feet.
    LORD LLANOYERsaid, that there was extreme difficulty in passing any Bill through the other House of Parliament if it touched the interests of gas, railway, or water companies. The moment a Bill affecting any such companies was introduced in the other House, the pressure put on Members for the purpose of opposing it rendered it almost impossible to pass any good or beneficial measure as regards the interests of the public. The present Bill when introduced in the other House was a good Bill, affecting consumers, and certainly not interfering unne-
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    cessarily with the interests of the companies. It was referred to a Select Committee, which was presided over by Mr. Sotheron Estcourt, than whom no one was better qualified for the office. As soon as the Bill had been referred to this Committee all the gas companies in the metropolis appeared en masse against it. There were thirteen of them, represented by eight or nine counsel, and as many Parliamentary Agents. Having sat eighteen days, the Chairman intimated to parties what were the intentions of the Committee in regard to the provisions of the Bill, and the alterations they intended to make. No sooner was that announcement made, than the counsel for the gas companies "threw up," and said they would appear in "another place." It was generally understood that they would appear in their Lordships' House. Not at all. The agents of the gas companies in London sent out circulars to all gas companies in the provinces, calling on them to instruct their Members to oppose the Bill in every possible way, because it would not only materially interfere with the interests of the gas companies in the Metropolis, but indirectly with all the gas companies in the United Kingdom. That was their course of proceeding; what was the consequence? When the Bill went into Committee of the Whole House, great influence was brought to bear upon it, and alterations were made which reduced it to a worse state than it was in now—for it was only in consequence of the Bill having been referred to a Select Committee of their Lordships' House that it had been materially improved. Ho had no hesitation in saying that in order to make it a good Bill as regards the consumer, and at the same time practically not to interfere improperly with the interests of gasmakers, great alterations must still be made in it, and it was a question now, whether at that late period of the Session it was desirable to proceed with it. The Bill had come up at the last moment at which it could be read a second time; but, before it could pass, great alterations must be made in it.
    VISCOUNT TORRINGTONthought the Bill most injurious to the public interests; the community being handed over by it to the tender mercies of the gas companies, ho felt it his duty to move that the Report of the Amendments be received that day three months.
    LORD TRUROsaid, that the Bill had undergone a very elaborate investigation

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    by a Committee of the other House, and many improvements had been made in it, at the suggestion or with the consent, as he understood, of the gas companies. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department had expressed the opinion before the Committee of the other House that there was no ground whatever for supposing that the companies had acted with bad faith to the public.
    LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYhoped the noble Viscount would not press his Motion till be saw, on the third reading, in what shape the Bill appeared after Amendment. It might be possible to improve the Bill so as to make it acceptable to the public; but he confessed he thought it would be almost impossible to make it a good measure. There was one clause to which he must particularly call attention. An enormous sum of money had been expended in contesting the Bill, and the parties had introduced a clause by which the whole of that expense was to be defrayed out of the rate to be levied by the Metropolitan Board, whose whole duty it was to manage and conduct the sewerage of this town. He thought such a provision so monstrous and so wrong that he was inclined himself to move its rejection.
    LORD REDESDALEthought it would not be quite fair to the parties concerned to press the Motion of the noble Viscount. This case showed the great inconvenience of entertaining such a Bill, which required so much consideration, at that late period of the Session. He must say, however, that it was only the extreme exertion of the noble Lord himself (Lord Stanley of Alderley) that enabled the Bill to pass the second reading. It would otherwise have died a natural death. Both parties having been subjected to the expense of contesting the Bill before that House, and the measure being now in the shape of a compromise between the parties, the noble Viscount should wait to see the shape it Would assume in the third reading. The fact was that the gas companies, by agreement among themselves, with which the consumers could in no way interfere, already had the Metropolis at their mercy; and it was a mistake to suppose that this Bill was one exclusively in their interest. It would no doubt be desirable that some means could be devised for insuring perfect accuracy in gas meters, but he die not think the mistakes which occurred were invariably in favour of the gas companies.
    VISCOUNT TORRINGTONwithdrew his Motion.
    Bill to be read 3a on Friday next.

  EUROPEAN FORCES (INDIA) BILL.

    THIRD READING.
    Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
    Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.
    LORD LYVEDENsaid, he had been glad to hear the assurances given by Her Majesty's Government, and by the illustrious Duke the Commander-in-Chief, that there was nothing in this Bill to alter the relative position of the Governor General of India and the military authorities at home, and much had he been gratified to learn from the noble Lord (Lord Clyde) who had lately returned with so much glory from India, that there was a willingness on the part of officers of the Line, not only to serve, but to settle in India, if opportunities were afforded to them for so doing. But a subject which appeared to have been overlooked in both Houses of Parliament was the additional expense which would be entailed on the resources of India by the substitution of the Royal army for the local European force. Considerable diversity of opinion existed as to the amount of this expenditure; he should, therefore, be glad to hear a statement of the view taken by the Government, and of the mode, if any, by which it was proposed that this outlay should in future be kept under control. Under the Charter of 1813 the number of Queen's troops in India could not be increased beyond 20,000, unless on a requisition from the East India Company; and so strictly was the rule adhered to that during the mutiny, when the pressure for assistance was urgent, formal requisitions were sent on each occasion from the Directors to the Queen's Government for additional troops. In the Act of 1858 he could not perceive any equivalent, either by an Order in Council or any other means, for this check, which had now been abolished. Although he had never anticipated much usefulness from the Indian Council, he had not been prepared for the state of utter insignificance to which they had been reduced by recent occurrences. It was evident that there was nothing to prevent the Secretary of State for India, the Secretary of State for War, and the Commander-in-Chief from jointly determining to increase the forces stationed in India to

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    an extent which it 'would be impossible for the revenues of the country to bear—a consequence which could never have been contemplated by the Act of 1858. It was no imputation on a Minister to say that he would naturally be anxious that the forces under his control should be forwarded to India in the best possible manner, and that, where ho had no responsibility for the finances of the country, he would be comparatively reckless of expense. Pending the discussion of this measure, a Commission had been appointed to inquire into the best means of carrying out the amalgamation or extinction of the local force, and it would be satisfactory to the public if the names of those gentlemen were stated. He, likewise, hoped the Government would have no objection to state whether any questions save those connected with amalgamation had been referred to them, such, for instance, as the enormous future expenditure entailed by the increased European force. It was important to know whether it would be practicable to maintain the higher rate of pay which had been granted originally in order that the Queen's troops might be placed on the same footing as those in the Company's service, and, indeed, whether soldiers sent to equally warm climates would be contented without equal allowances. His remarks were not dictated by any spirit of hostility to the measure, but proceeded from a desire to ascertain the steps which the Government contemplated to prevent the undue increase of the military establishments in India. With regard to the Council of India it seemed to him to be inflicting a severe punishment on honorable gentlemen to compel them to register edicts with the issuing of which they had nothing to do, and with regard to which their only liberty lay in entering their dissent after the question had been decided.
    THE DUKE OF ARGYLLapprehended that his noble Friend had mistaken the lesson to be drawn from the despatches. The doctrine had been held by the late and by the present Governments that the Cabinet might fairly decide on questions of Indian policy, without consulting the Indian Council. No change from the previous system was thereby involved, as it had formerly been perfectly competent for the Cabinet to consult in secret from the Court of Directors. The Act passed in 1858 continued to the Council of India the same powers which had been possessed
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    by the Court of Directors in regard to the imposition of any charge on the revenues of India. Under the former Acts the Crown could not send out to India of its own motion a larger force than somewhere about 20,000 men; but if a larger force were sent out on the requisition of the Court of Directors, it was not in their power to insist upon the Government withdrawing them again from India. Of late years the statutory limit had been considerably overstepped. With regard to the increased expenses, as that was a subject on which the officers of the local army and of the Queen's army differed materially, the Secretary of State had referred it to a competent actuary, the result of whose examination was that the increase caused by the plan of the Government would be about £180,000. Mr. Ham mil, however, had not taken into consideration the expense which would be incurred, if the Government plan were not adopted, by raising men in this country to fill up the ranks of the local army. Again, there would be an expense of somewhere about £318,000, a considerable portion of which would be an annual charge, such as half-pay and the like, incurred in reducing the Indian army. The question of expense, however, was a very small one compared with the grounds of imperial policy on which the question must be judged.
    LORD WYNFORDpointed out that the noble Duke had not answered the question of the noble Baron as to whether any scheme had been laid down for the guidance of the Council on this matter. He complained of the tone in which the noble Duke had spoken of the services of the local army. It contrasted very unfavourably with the well-merited eulogy which had been passed on them by the illustrious Duke at the head of the army.
    EARL DE GREY AKD RIPONdenied that the noble Duke near him (the Duke of Argyll) had depreciated the services of the local army, but certainly the illustrious Duke (the Duke of Cambridge) could not be charged with doing it scant justice. With regard to the question of the noble Baron, it was not a Council nor a Commission which Her Majesty's Government proposed to appoint, but a Committee. Lord Hotham had. consented to act as the chairman; and the other members were—Colonel Sir P. Melvill, representing the Bombay army; Lieutenant-Colonel Norman, representing the Bengal army; Major-General Clarke, representing the Ma-

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    dras army; Sir C. Yorke, Colonel Wetherall, and General Russell.
    Motion agreed to; Bill read 3a accordingly, and passed.

  LAW OF MARRIAGE.

    PETITIONS.
    THE EARL OF CLARENDON presented petitions from the Lord Mayors and corporations of London and York, and from upwards of 100 other large towns in England, for the Repeal of the law which prohibits Marriage with a deceased wife's Sister. At this late period of the Session, when so many of their Lordships, and particularly of the members of the right rev. Bench, had left London, he should feel it highly unbecoming to accompany the presentation of these petitions with any remarks calculated to provoke discussion. He should merely say, therefore, that he would not have undertaken to present them if he did not concur in their prayer, and regret the repeated decisions of their Lordships upon the question, which was one of great social, and, to many of his fellow-countrymen, of great personal interest. He believed, however, that a great change had taken place in the public mind upon the subject. There was a growing conviction that these marriages were not contrary to the Divine law, and he trusted the day was not distant when their Lordships in their wisdom and justice would consider that persons who contracted these marriages should not be treated by the civil law as transgressors, and that their children should not be visited with civil disabilities.
    THE LORD CHANCELLORthought it was a mistake to suppose that there was any change in the public mind upon this subject. Innumerable petitions had been presented on the other side during the present Session, and he believed that in England, Ireland, and Scotland the vast majority of the male, and almost the whole of the female population were against legalizing such marriages.
    LORD WODEHOUSEalso presented petitions in favour of marriage with a deceased wife's sister, and expressed his dissent from the statement of the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack, that the people generally were against any change in the law.
    LORD REDESDALEbelieved, on the contrary, that the country was still ns much averse as ever it was to the legali
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    zation of marriage with a deceased wife's sister.

  TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION WITH INDIA.

    OBSERVATIONS.
    LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYwished to call the attention of the House to the present state of telegraphic communication with India. He complained that notwithstanding all the efforts made by the present and preceding Governments, and the large sums lavished in the expectation of carrying out a regular line of telegraph by land and sea to India via the Mediterranean, every scheme hitherto attempted had failed, and we were now in the same position as respected telegraphic communication with the East that we were in three years ago. The first attempt which was made was to procure a concession from the Porte to make a direct line from Constantinople to Alexandria, from thence to Suez, and on to Aden. A subsidy was granted for that purpose, and he stated at the time that, although it might be necessary, it was a very extravagant outlay of the public money. That line at this moment was completely destroyed and the outlay thrown away. The Government undertook to guarantee 4½ per cent on the expenditure of £800,000 or £1,000,000, without making its success conditional, or that it should continue in operation. It had now ceased to be of any use whatever. There was another line projected at the same time under the auspices of the Turkish Government, by which the Turkish Government undertook to make a line from Constantinople across Asia Minor to Bussorah; but there seemed as yet to be no satisfactory assurance that that line would ever be carried out, or any line involving the laying out a great length of ocean cable. After the failure of the Atlantic cable there was very little probability of cables laid in deep water being capable of working successfully for any length of time. He understood that a scheme had been started, towards which a subsidy of £3,900 had been granted for a line through the Austrian dominions by way of Corfu to Alexandria; but that line was objectionable on the ground that it would be necessarily under the control of a foreign Government. There was another scheme projected, which had been favourably entertained by the late Government, of a line from Falmouth to Gibraltar, and thence through our great Mediterranean fortress to Alexandria. This,

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    in the event of war, would be undoubtedly the best mode of communication, being at once the most direct and entirely under the control of the Government. He had recently seen a proposition to divert the cable intended for that line to carry out a line of communication between Rangoon and Singapore at the joint expense of the English and Indian Governments, and he wished to know whether the Government seriously contemplated such a diversion. The Turkish line had failed, the Austrian line had failed, there was no communication to Malta except through Sicily on the one hand, or to Corfu on the other. He wished, therefore, to know what was the state of the negotiations with the Turkish Government, and what progress had been made towards procuring an efficient telegraphic communication between this country and India.
    LORD WODEHGUSEentirely concurred with his noble Friend as to the extreme importance of establishing a good line of telegraphic communication with India, and regretted that the efforts made to effect it had hitherto proved unsuccessful. With respect to the Red Sea line, he regretted that after the cable had been laid down all the way, it would not work, and, notwithstanding all the efforts which were made, there were very light hopes of this line ever being carried out as an effective line of telegraphic communication. With regard to the alternative line through Asia Minor via Bagdad, referred to by his noble Friend, that was in a more favourable position, the Turkish Government having, by the aid of English engineers engaged for the purpose, succeeded in establishing the line as far as Mosul; and the Turkish Government were now in communication with Her Majesty's Government, for continuing that line to India, the Indian Government, on its part, being willing to undertake the submarine line. As to the Mediterranean telegraph, it was true that the only means of communication with Malta at present existing was by a line through Sicily. The state of that line was this. A subsidy had been granted for a cable laid down between Cagliari on the one side, and Malta and Corfu on the other, which had continued to work some time. After the failure of that cable an application was made to the Government for permission to establish a line through Sicily to Malta, and, by way of Otranto, to Corfu; and the Company had asked that the subsidy
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    should be transferred from the original line to this line. It being thought right that we should have some line of communication to Malta and Corfu, the Government had consented provisionally to this arrangement. With regard to the line from Ragusa to Alexandria, a convention was, in April 1859, concluded with the Austrian Government, but no progress had yet been made with the laying down of the cable. The reason of this was that when application was made to the Porte for a firman authorizing the landing of the cable at Alexandria, it was stated that the Turkish Government had conceded to Messrs. Bewail the exclusive right of landing cables in Egypt and in all the Asiatic dominions of the Porto. Strong remonstrances were made against this, but it was not until the present year that the Porto cancelled the concession to Messrs. Bewail, and signed a convention with the British and Austrian Governments by which the permission necessary for landing the cable was given. At the last moment, when the convention was about to be ratified at Vienna, Her Majesty's Government was informed by the Austrian Government that, in consequence of the failure of the numerous attempts to lay deep sea lines, no company could be found who would undertake to lay this cable upon the terms originally stipulated for, and that, if the scheme was to be carried out, those terms must be advanced. That communication was received only three or four days ago, and no decision had been come to upon it. In his opinion, however, the British Government ought not to enter into any new and less favourable arrangement without maturely considering the whole subject of telegraphic communications in the Mediterranean. The line projected between Falmouth and Gibraltar would, he agreed with his noble Friend, be most valuable to this country, because it would be an independent line. The cable had been constructed—and constructed, he believed, upon the soundest principles—but it had been thought by the Government that, considering the great risk which would attend the operation of laying it down, and the sacrifice of capital which would result from its loss, further experiments should be made by competent engineers as to the best mode of hiving these cables. A Committee of engineers was appointed, which was presided over by the late Mr. Robert Stephenson, and of which Mr. Wheatstone and other

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    eminent electricians were Members. That Committee had made experiments, the results of which were, he was informed, likely to throw much light upon this subject; but their report was at present not in a state to be acted upon. In the mean time, as the carrrying out of this plan was not abandoned but rather postponed; and as it was thought that the Red Sea line and the line from Ragusa to Alexandria would soon be in operation, it was thought desirable, considering what was now going on in China, to complete the communication with Singapore by laying down the cable, which had been prepared for the line between Falmouth and Gibraltar, between Rangoon and that place. Now that the Red Sea line had failed, and it was doubtful whether that between Rangoon and Alexandria would be carried out, Her Majesty's Government would consider whether it was still desirable that this cable should be laid down between Rangoon and Singapore, or whether it might not be more usefully employed at some other portion of the line of communication with India.
    LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, the noble Lord had answered his questions satisfactorily. He understood that the French Government were considering the propriety of making a telegraphic line from Algeria to Tunis, Tripoli, and along the whole coast of Africa to Egypt. It was worthy considering whether it might not be desirable for us to connect Malta with that line. He hoped that on the whole we might soon see a further attempt made to complete a communication so essential to the interests of India and the rest of our Empire.
    LORD REDESDALEthought that in a military point of view electric telegraphs were not likely to prove so advantageous as was once supposed. If war broke out, one of the first objects of any enemy would be to destroy our telegraphic lines between Gibraltar, Malta, and other points in the Mediterranean, and thus to prevent our communication with our fortresses and with India. Where the lines were laid down in deep water their success was doubtful, and the wires in shoal water could easily be destroyed. It would be far better to secure a more rapid and less expensive overland communication with our Eastern possessions.
    House adjourned at Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, quarter before Five o'clock.