RESOLUTION OF URGENCY. (Hansard, 13 August 1860)

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL,
moved to Re-Solve, That, inasmuch, as the Postponement of this Bill will withhold a Power of effecting a considerable annual Saving which may be made under its Provisions, and will thus practically continue for a Time an unnecessary Liability on the Public, the Circumstances which require Legislation on this Subject appear to this House to be of such real Urgency as to render the immediate Consideration of the same necessary. 1177 The noble Duke said, that when he undertook the charge of the Bill he had no idea that it was to he opposed, and still less that it was to be opposed by his noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) on the cross benches. He could not help thinking that there was some misconception as to the object of the Bill. It was quite true that several matters connected with savings banks had been matters of keen controversy in the other House of Parliament; but this Bill had nothing whatever to do with those matters. The most strenuous opponents of this Bill when it was first introduced were now strongly of opinion that the measure should pass in its present form. The facts were shortly these. The public were under an obligation to pay to the trustees of savings banks interest at 3^ per cent, and, at the same time, they were bound to invest this fund in certain public securities, provided only they were part of the National Debt of the country. The result was that the interest due from them was much less than they received. Consequently there was an annual loss to the public, which they were certainly not compelled to pay every year, but which was, nevertheless, continually on the increase. At the present moment the amount of deficit was £3,000,000 beyond the amount provided for by the Act of Parliament. The object of the present Bill was simply to allow the trustees to invest these funds in other securities, and thus enable them to obtain a larger amount of interest. There was another question as to the power which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had far financial purposes over this fund. It had been said in former times that this financial power had been exercised in a way which was convenient to the Government of the day. But this Bill did not in any way increase or diminish the power of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to deal with these funds for financial purposes.

§ LORD MONTEAGLE
said, that he felt it necessary to bring shortly under their Lordships' notice the real question which was at issue in regard to this Bill. That question was of the first importance. The Chancellor of the Exchequer could now at Ids discretion go into the Stock market and purchase or sell particular security, according as it suited his financial views to raise or lower the value of that security, and for effecting this purpose he had the disposal of £40,000,000; thus possessing a power over the public securities far 1178 exceeding that of any individual or any confederacy of individuals. All this, which had hitherto been a surmise or a suggestion, was now matter of proof and of Parliamentary record; for a Committee had lately been sitting under the able and trustworthy presidency of Mr. Sotheron Estcourt, before whom all that he (Lord Monteagle) had in former times asserted had been fully proved. A Bill had been introduced professing to be founded on the report of that Committee; but it had failed to satisfy the expectations of Parliament or to meet the exigency of the case. Though it proposed to withdraw £30,000,000 from the control of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it still left him £10,000,000 with which to operate on the money market. This Bill had been withdrawn. The present Bill of two clauses was produced as the only record of the proceedings of the Select Committee and of the other House in this matter. It was inadequate and incomplete. He maintained that there could be no urgency for such a measure. Where an evil was admitted there was nothing more imprudent or more unbecoming than for Parliament to pass a Bill which affecting to reform a grievance did not go to the root of the evil, and provide an adequate remedy. This measure contained no remedy at all, and yet it might hereafter be used as an argument against the adoption of a larger and more satisfactory Bill. He objected to the power given to invest deposits in many different securities. Safety was sacrificed, for the chances of a higher rate of interest. Whether in regard to savings banks, private banks, or the Bank of England, immediate convertibility was the principle which ought to be adhered to, a diminution of convertibility for the sake of a better interest was a danger which no trustee ought to incur. In conclusion, he maintained that there was no justification for a departure from their Lordships' Standing Order in favour of this measure, and permitting it to be read a second time at the very close of the session.

§ LOUD REDESDALE
said, he had previously expressed his disapprobation of the Bill, and it was viewed with surprise by some of the most important savings banks in the kingdom, and he had a letter from one of the largest and most important of them in St. Martin's Place, in which they said they had considered the subject, and that they disapproved of the Bill. It was true that the Committee on the Savings Banks 1179 did not object to the extending the limit of the security on which the money should be invested, but they disliked it so long as the funds remained in the hands they were in at present. There was a suspicion with respect to savings banks that the subject did require great caution on the part of Parliament, circumstances having occurred in connection with them that had created excitement throughout the country, and which did not render the proposed extension desirable. The advantage to be gained was small, and hardly to the interest of the savings banks. The gentleman who wrote from the St. Martin's savings bank said the Chancellor of the Exchequer's hands had been tied up since 1858, and they had better not be relaxed by passing this Bill, as it would give sanction to transactions in this £40,000,000 in the market, seeing that funds were wanted for India and for fortification purposes. Any advantage to be derived was far less than the danger. There was a feeling that in the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer about £3,000,000 of money in the savings banks had disappeared by jobbing and transfer, and this came out in Committee; and as the Bill only took up a small portion of the general legislation required on the subject, and as there was no urgency in the matter, he should oppose the Resolution.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
was understood to say he did not see the validity of the objection to the measure or that the investments in the proposed securities were objectionable. The general objections to the Bill were very weak. It was confessed that general legislation was required, but it was said that passing a Bill dealing only with a small portion of the legislation required might be urged as an objection to entering into the consideration of the entire subject at a future opportunity. The Bill could do no possible harm by extending the investments to certain securities guaranteed by Parliament, such as the Turkish Loan, the Canada, Jamaica, and other West Indian Loans. Why their Lordships should deny the public the advantage he could not at all understand. With regard to the question of urgency, it was surely enough to say that the Bill would save the public money.

§ LORD MONTEAGLE
observed that the Bill would have the effect of extending the agency in buying and dealing on the Stock Exchange on the part of Her Majesty's Government, thereby giving a sanction to 1180 a practice which was condemned and deserved condemnation; and the small saving that might by possibility be effected would be a most incomplete and insufficient return for the sacrifice made in sanctioning a bad system.

CONTENTS.
Campbell, L. (L. Chancellor.)	Sydney, V.
	Torrington, V.
Somerset, D.	Camoys, L. [Teller.]
	Cranworth, L.
Ailesbury, M.	De Tabley, L.
	Foley, L. [Teller.]
Chichester, E.	Harris, L.
De Grey, E.	Ponsonby, L. (E. Bessborough.)
Ducie, E.
Granville, E.	Sundridge, L. (D. Argyll.)
Spencer, E.
	Wodehouse, L.
NOT-CONTENTS.
Normanby, M.	Dungannon, V.
Salisbury, M.	Hutchinson, V. (E.Donoughmore.)
Westmeath, M.
Amherst, E.	Blayney, L.
Derby, E.	Chelmsford, L.
Desart, E.	Denman, L.
Hardwicke, E.	Monteagle of Brandon, L. [Teller.]
Mayo, E.
Orkney, E.	Redesdale, L.
Romney, E.	Wynford, L.