Lords Sitting of 7 August 1860

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Chancery Evidence Commission; Refreshment Houses and Wine Licences (Ireland).
2a Rifle Volunteer Corps; Census (Scotland); Corrupt Practices Prevention Act (1854) Continuance.
3a Game Certificates, &c.; Naval Discipline; Senior Member of Council (India); Admiralty Jurisdiction (India); Superannuation Act (1859) Amendment.

MILITIA BALLOT BILL.

  REPORT OF AMENDMENTS.
  Order of the Day read for the Report of the Amendments on this Bill.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYobjected to the provision of the 19th Clause, by which the age up to which men could be balloted for the Militia was feed at thirty instead of at thirty-five, as under the existing Act. The ballot, to his view, was nothing but an odious system of conscription, but the diminution in the area over which it extended necessarily increased its pressure upon those who still remained liable to it. Men of between thirty and thirty-five were surely quite capable of serving in the Militia, and he thought their exemption ought not to be made part of a mere continuance Bill.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, he did not see why, merely because this was a continuance Bill, an alteration might not be made by it that was otherwise unobjectionable. No doubt by exempting persons of between thirty and thirty-five from the ballot they to a certain extent increased the burden upon those who would still fall under its operation—namely, those of
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  the ages between eighteen and thirty; but it should be remembered that the younger a man was the less inconvenient it was for him to be forcibly taken away from his civil occupation to serve in the Militia. After thirty, however, a man's habits and position in life were, generally speaking, more fixed, and it was therefore desirable that that class should, if possible, be relieved from all anxiety with respect to being compelled to join the Militia. The number of persons who would be liable to the ballot under the provisions of this Bill was much larger than the number who were liable to the ballot in 1800, and almost as large as the corresponding class in 1815. In 1800, when the ages to which the ballot was applicable were from 18 to 45 the number of persons liable to it was 1,900,000; and in 1815 it was 2,329,000. Now, according to an estimate furnished by the Registrar General, the number of males between the ages of 18 and 30 was at present 2,227,000. Thus the pressure of the ballot upon those brought under its operation would be less severe now than in 1800, and much the same as in 1815. In 1852 the Government of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) reduced the maximum age from 45 to 35; and, taking a further step in the same direction, it was now proposed to reduce it to 30. Men of between 30 and 35, if they were good workmen, were likely to have an opportunity of obtaining permanent situations, which it was important they should be able to accept; but they might be precluded from doing so if they could be called upon to serve in the Militia; his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War consequently felt that it would be expedient at once to set free men above 30 years of

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  age from all apprehension of the ballot. The views of his right hon. Friend on this subject had the approval of many eminent Militia colonels and other persons well acquainted with the circumstances of that service; and, as this provision had been passed by the other House, which was especially bound to consider the requirements of the population in such matters, it would be unadvisable for their Lordships now to alter the Bill. He ventured to hope that their Lordships would agree to the clause as it stood.
  THE EARL OF DERBYconsidered that the argument of the noble Earl would be equally valid if the reduction in the age of those to be balloted for the Militia were to be from the age of 30 to that of 25, and he could not but think that if they were to have recourse to a system so expensive and so generally objectionable as the ballot the area should, in all policy and justice, be made as wide as possible. But there was one point to which the noble Earl had not referred. Whenever the ballot was really in operation it would act as a powerful preventive to recruiting for the regular army, and therefore it was peculiarly desirable that the largest possible number of men who would not be available for the regular army should be included in the operation of the ballot;—so that the two systems might not unnecessarily be brought into collision. During the late war, when the ballot was carried out to a great extent, the price given for substitutes was so large as to render it impossible to obtain recruits for the regular army, and it became necessary to put a stop to the ballot for two years. For these reasons he thought the alteration proposed by the noble Earl injudicious, and calculated to make the pressure of the ballot more grievous than it otherwise would be, and would exempt from the Militia a valuable class of men who would not be qualified for service in the regular army. He would suggest, if the noble Earl insisted on the expediency of reducing the maximum age from 35 to 30, he should consider the policy of also reducing the minimum age from 18 to 16, which would admit a class of lads whose wages in farm work must be comparatively small, who would be perfectly able to do the duty of the Militia, enlisting for five years, and would then be most serviceable in the regular army.
  EARL GRANVILLEthought the suggestion of the noble Earl very judicious, and promised that full consideration should
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  be given to it before the third reading of the Bill.
  THE EARL OF DERBYhoped the reduction of the maximum age would also be pt open till the third reading.
  Amendments Reported.
  Further Amendments made; Bill to be read 3a on Friday next.

RIFLE VOLUNTEER CORPS BILL.—PRACTISING GROUNDS.

  BESOLUTION OF URGENCY. SECOND READING.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONrose to move that the measure was of so urgent a nature as to come within the exception to the Resolution adopted by the House, and stated that the object of the Bill which he proposed to read a second time was to afford facilities to Rifle Volunteer corps throughout the country for acquiring practising grounds. The Bill had been introduced into the other House of Parliament by a private Member sitting on the Opposition benches, and was not in any sense a Government measure; but in the altered shape in which it had come up to their Lordships' House it appeared to be a Bill to which it was desirable they should give their assent. In requesting their Lordships now to read it a second time as a matter of urgency, he would observe that Rifle Volunteer corps through the country had the utmost difficulties presented to their acquiring practising grounds. It was quite unnecessary that he should remind their Lordships of the public spirit and patriotism which had been exhibited throughout the country in the formation of these corps. They had seen in the Metropolis, at the review held by Her Majesty some time ago, proofs of the high degree of efficiency in drill which these corps had attained; and no doubt the review which ho believed was at that moment going on in the city of Edinburgh would show that the corps in Scotland and the north of England were in an equally advanced condition of efficiency. But it was one of the first essentials of rifle corps that the members should be good shots—that they should know how to use the rifle well, and be practised in the use of it. This could not be without good practising grounds. There were considerable difficulties in many parts of the country in acquiring land for establishing these grounds, and if the Bill did not pass, and the remainder of the summer were allowed to go by without giving the Volunteers the facilities

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  required, the efficiency of the corps already raised would be very seriously impaired, and the formation of others proportionally discouraged. The provisions of the Bill had now nothing in them of a compulsory character, and he trusted their Lordships would mark their sense of the public spirit evinced by these corps and their desire to promote their efficiency by removing all technical obstacles to their acquiring practising grounds. He concluded by moving to resolve—
  "That as the Means of acquiring proper Training and Efficiency in the Use of the Rifle will he denied to the Members of many Volunteer Corps and the raising of new Corps discouraged unless practising Grounds can be secured forthwith, the Want of which has been already felt in many Places, and for the obtaining of which increased Facilities are greatly required, the Circumstances which require Legislation on this Subject appear to this House to be of such real Urgency as to render the immediate Consideration of the same necessary."
  EARL SPENCERmost cordially approved the Volunteer Rifle corps movement. Its utility, however, depended on its permanence; and it had elements which he thought would tend to make it permanent. Among its various recommendations there was, first of all, the manly exercise which all effective members of Volunteer corps must have; there was also the social intercourse which was inseparable from their meetings, and there was the crowning feeling that in participating in those enjoyments they were conferring a benefit on the country by assisting in its defence. Above all there was the charm of rifle shooting, which was so very popular in Switzerland, America, and Germany; and from what he had seen in the Metropolis and in the country districts he would say should be equally popular in England. Rifle shooting would be one of the great means of keeping corps together, and he hoped their Lordships would agree to this Resolution and read the Bill a second time, not only with a view to increase the efficiency of corps in rifle shooting, but also as a means of really making permanent the Volunteer movement.
  Resolution agreed to.
  Bill read 2a (according to Order); and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.

NAVAL DISCIPLINE BILL.

  THIRD READING.
  Bill lead 3a (according to Order).
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, that, although the measure was one which was,
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  no doubt, calculated to effect some advantageous changes in connection with our system of naval discipline by detailing more minutely the description of punishment which would follow particular offences, yet there were some of its provisions which were not altogether free from objection. The main change which it was proposed by its means to introduce was to enable imprisonment to be inflicted in lieu of corporal punishment by the commander of a ship—a step which was, no doubt, in accordance with public feeling. "While taking that step, however, it was well that it should be borne in mind that when a fleet was in presence of an enemy, or in those cases in which it became of great importance that the strength of a ship should not be diminished, punishment must proceed pretty much in accordance with the old system. The Bill further provided that the punishments in question should not be inflicted until an inquiry, conducted by officers appointed by the captain of the ship, had been instituted, and it was by the clause which contained that provision, more than any other embraced in the measure, that a new system of government on board a man-of-war was inaugurated. Now, the first thing which the noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty would, as a consequence of the provisions of that clause be compelled to do, would be to regulate the manner in which the proposed trial was to take place, the modes in which evidence was to be taken upon it; in short, to arrange and define the system of procedure of a new tribunal, of the statements laid before which the captain of the ship was to know nothing until the Court reported, when he would be empowered to act upon the recommendations embodied in the Report or not, as he might deem fit. Under the new system a great control would, notwithstanding that option, be exercised over the discipline of a vessel by the tribunal to which he referred; while he could not help thinking that the best way to secure the soundness of that discipline would be to make the captain responsible for its maintenance, under the eye of the Admiralty and the Executive Government. The adoption of a different course would, he feared, lead to the existence of a state of things under which the authority of the captain on board his ship would be greatly impaired; while there was the additional objection to the clause that in small vessels—such,

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  for instance, as gunboats—considerable difficulty would be experienced in finding a sufficient number of officers to constitute the proposed tribunal. He might also observe that he did not look upon the Board of Admiralty as a good Court of appeal from the sentence of a court-martial, especially in cases in which they were called upon to review—being compelled to base their decision on written evidence—the sentence of a Court which had the entire evidence adduced in an oral form before them. Constituting the Board of Admiralty a Court of appeal, under such circumstances, was simply making it the supervisor of the decisions of tribunals more competent to pronounce an opinion on the questions which came under their consideration than the Admiralty itself. There was also another clause in the Bill under the operation of which a seaman might be dealt with for flagrant misconduct on shore in the same way as if it had been committed on board ship; to which clause he gave his entire and cordial assent. He should not further advert to that clause or to the measure generally than to express a hope that it might be successful in attaining the object which its authors had in view.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, that by means of the power which the clause which the noble Earl had last mentioned conferred, it was hoped a great improvement in our system of naval discipline would be effected. The clause relative to the institution of an inquiry before corporal punishment could be inflicted on a seaman, to which the noble Earl had more particularly alluded, would, he thought, be productive of this good result—that, while under its operation the discipline of the navy would in no degree be likely to be impaired, an additional inducement would be held out to the seamen of the merchant to enter the naval service; for entering into which they were at present deterred by the existence of corporal punishment. The clause would by no means take away in any important sense the authority which a captain exercised on board his ship, inasmuch as he might, as the noble Earl had already stated, set aside, on his own responsibility, the recommendations which might be contained in the reports of the proposed courts of inquiry. The transference to the Admiralty of the power to review the decisions of courts martial was merely a legislative sanction of a practice that already existed.
  Amendments made.
  Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

CENSUS (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  RESOLUTION OF URGENCY. SECOND READING.
  EARL GRANVILLE EARL GRANVILLE rose and
  Moved to Resolve,
  "That as regards the Census (Scotland) Bill, inasmuch as unless proper Provision be made during the present Session of Parliament with respect to the Census of Scotland that Census cannot be taken simultaneously with those of England and Ireland, the Circumstances which require Legislation on the Subject Matter of the said Bill are of such real Urgency as to render the immediate Consideration of the same necessary."
  Resolution agreed to.
  Bill read 2a (according to Order) and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.

CORRUPT PRACTICES ACT (1854) CONTINUANCE BILL.

  RESOLUTION OF URGENCY. SECOND READING.
  EARL GRANVILLE EARL GRANVILLE rose and
  Moved to Resolve,
  "That as regards the Corrupt Practices Prevention Act (1854) Continuance Bill, inasmuch as the Provisions of that Act and of the Act amending the same with respect to Bribery, Treating, and undue Influence at Elections of Members of Parliament will almost immediately expire unless the same be continued by this Bill, it is the Opinion of this House, that the Circumstances which render Legislation on the Subject of the said Bill expedient are of such Urgency as to render the immediate Consideration of the same necessary."
  Resolution agreed to.
  Bill read 2a (according to Order) and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.

BUSINESS OF THE SESSION.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF DERBYrose to put the Question to the Lord President as to which of the Bills now waiting for Second Reading Her Majesty's Government intend to proceed with—and said that, before he put the question, he was desirous of eliciting un expression of opinion upon two Bills which stood for a second reading—namely, the Ecclesiastical Commission Bill and the Poor Law Relief (Ireland) Bill. If he did not mistake, the noble Lord President had expressed an opinion that certain clauses which had been introduced into the former Bill were absolutely necessary; and inasmuch as those clauses had been rejected

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  in the House of Commons, he wished to know the intention of the noble Earl whether he proposed to proceed with the Bill in its present shape? The other Bill, the Poor Law Board (Ireland) Continuance Bill, it was unquestionably desirable should be passed; but it did not at all follow that in a measure intended to prevent the powers of the Board from expiring, provisions making considerable alterations in their functions ought to be introduced, to which grave objections were entertained by many of the Irish Peers. He was not disposed to insist on the too strict enforcement of the Resolution which their Lordships had adopted; but he thought they ought to guard against such alterations being introduced under colour of a mere continuance Bill, and receiving the assent of the House on the plea of urgency. He trusted, therefore, that the Government would consent to make the Bill a continuance Bill merely. The question he wished to ask the noble Earl was, whether he would have the kindness to state which of the Bills now in their Lordships' House and waiting for a second reading, the Government considered of such urgency and necessity as to induce them to ask the House to dispense with the rule which had been laid down for the guidance of their proceedings. He would extend that question one degree further than the notice he had given; because he observed that a number of Bills which had not reached their Lordships' House, were still in progress in the other House of Parliament. "With regard to these, their Lordships would doubtless agree with him that the case must be a very strong one which would justify them in departing from the rule fixed by the Resolution, which had been brought up to the House so long after the time fixed by the Resolution. To the Bills requisite for the purposes of Supply, and to complete the financial arrangements of the year, he was quite sure there would be no opposition at whatever time they came up; indeed, they had been specially excluded from the operation of the Resolution; but respecting other measures they ought to be cautious in admitting the plea of urgency. It was very desirable, he thought, that in the conduct of business a perfect understanding should exist between both Houses; for though the House of Commons had no very great time to spare, and everybody was anxious to close the business of the Session, he had seen time wasted in the discussion of Bills
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  which were even yet in very early stages; and with regard to which, if they reached that House, their Lordships, he apprehended, would not admit the plea of urgency. He might instance one of the measures to which he referred. There was one very long and much disputed, partaking, in some degree, of the nature of a private Bill—the Metropolis Local Management Bill. To this measure, which had given rise to much controversy, and which affected a great many interests, and with respect to which it was quite certain that there was no chance of its receiving due consideration this Session, their Lordships would never think of applying the principle of urgency; and yet he had seen certainly one whole day, if not two, occupied in discussing Amendments to that Bill in Committee, and it had not got beyond that stage at the present moment. There was one measure which was to be discussed by the House of Commons that evening, to which Her Majesty's Government attached much importance, and which was certainly a matter of urgency and necessity; for, although he could not say he was very well satisfied with the mode in which Her Majesty's Government had dealt with that question, still he thought the difficulties surrounding it would be immensely increased by leaving it until another Session—he meant the Bill which had been introduced for the reconstitution of the Indian Army. At whatever inconvenience, therefore, he thought the Government had a perfect right to ask the House to discuss that measure. He thought, however, that the House had a right to know, at this period of the Session, what measures the Government considered measures of such urgency, that they ought to be proceeded with. Of course, he should give all the assistance in his power to the consideration and despatch of the necessary financial measures; but with that exception, and Bills of real urgency, he trusted no other business would be proceeded with.
  EARL GRANVILLEwas understood to say, that of the Bills referred to by the noble Earl, the Ecclesiastical Commission Bill stood on the paper for Thursday; the Poor Law Board Continuance (Ireland) Bill would be taken on Friday. The Government certainly intended to proceed with them both; but it was not for him to say how their Lordships would deal with them. The House would likewise be asked to agree to the Savings Banks and Friendly

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  Societies Investments Bill, and to the East India Stock Transfer Bill. Of the Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Bill, and of some other measures still in the other House, he at present knew nothing. The Fortifications Bill, however, would be brought before their Lordships, and, he hoped, would receive favourable consideration at then-hands. He did not place in the list the Bills connected with money, which of course would be exempted from the operation of the Resolution. Then there were the Fortifications and Works Bill, which he trusted would be considered of sufficient urgency to be exempted from it also; the India Forces Bill, which was also of great importance; the Land Improvement (Ireland) Bill, which, though of great importance also, was not a Government Bill; the Roman Catholic Charities Bill, and the Industrial Schools Bill. The Metropolis Local Management Bill was not one, perhaps, of real urgency, but it would be for their Lordships to consider whether it ought to be exempted from the Resolution. No doubt the Resolution itself, though, perhaps, some persons might take exception to the principle of it, had worked very well in practice, still there might occur cases in which the rigid application of it would place their Lordships in a very awkward position. The other House had been sitting for an unprecedented number of hours every day, and it would not look very well for their Lordships to strike work five or six weeks before the end of the Session -["Oh! oh!"]—well, at any rate, a good month. He approved the working of the Resolution, and was anxious that it should not break down; and he thought, therefore, that their Lordships ought to be careful in this respect. In conclusion, the noble Earl was understood to express his dissent from the principle that continuance Bills should not contain any amendment or alteration of the law.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, he had not gathered from the noble Earl's statement whether it was intended to bring in any new Bill with regard to India, and especially with regard to Indian finance, which was not already before Parliament. Such a Bill, of course, would not come within the operation of the Resolution; still it was just as well that their Lordships should know whether such a Bill was likely to be brought before them.
  After a few words from the Earl of CHICHESIER,
  LORD REDESDALEthought that all noble Lords would admit that he had never factiously opposed the relaxation of tins Resolution. In fact, he had always assisted in recommending the House to relax it in all cases where there was any real urgency shown. But, on the present occasion, as far as he could understand the statement of the noble Earl opposite, it amounted to this—that all the Bills now before Parliament were urgent, and that for the simple reason of the extraordinary length to which the Session was to be prolonged. The intention of the Resolution was to enable noble Lords to judge of the time when their attendance in town would be no longer necessary; and if, from the inability of the Government to carry on the business of the country at the usual rate, the Parliamentary Session could not be closed at the usual time, he did not think their Lordships ought to suffer: and they certainly had a right to complain of the arrangements of the Government in respect of particular Bills. In his opinion notice should be given at the earliest possible period after the expiration of the period fixed by the Resolution of the intention of the Government to proceed with any measure. The House had a right to complain that whereas the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill had been introduced a week ago; the second reading was fixed for as late a day as Friday, when the attendance of Irish Peers who took an interest in these matters must necessarily be very small. With regard to Continuance Bills, he was distinctly of opinion that no provision ought to be introduced into them altering the law in any way. They ought to be confined entirely to continuing the operation of the particular Act to which they relate. He could not admit that the circumstances which would justify their passing in a thin House a simple Continuance Bill would justify their making important alterations in the Poor Law of Ireland. He thought that after the delay of ten days between the Bill coming up to their Lordships and the time proposed for the second reading, they ought not to be called upon to discuss clauses which had nothing to do with a Continuance Bill, in the absence of a great number of the Irish Peers, It might cause inconvenience if the Local Government Supplemental Bill was not proceeded with; and as he had no wish to be blown up, there might be some reason alleged for passing the Gunpowder Bill; although it certainly appeared to him to establish a

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  new code of laws which had not before been deemed necessary. But as to the Savings Banks and Friendly Societies Investments Bill, it was not urgent; and it was extremely objectionable, because the object seemed to be to enable a species of stockjobbing to be carried on by the Chancellor of the Exchequer with the funds of Friendly Societies. He knew nothing about the East India Stock Transfer Bill. The Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Bill was represented as supplementary to the Improvement Bill which their Lordships had passed; but he was not prepared to say whether that circumstance would justify their proceeding with it. The Industrial Schools Amendment Bill could not be very urgent; and the Roman Catholic Charities Bill was of such importance that, unless it was in a satisfactory shape, it ought not to be discussed in a thin House at the extreme end of the Session. The Metropolis Local Management Bill had met with considerable opposition. The Bill was confessedly of little interest to the Government; and, as it was pressed forward by parties connected with a very oppressive Board, he did not think it was a measure which ought to be proceeded with at a late period of the Session. The proposition to expend large sums of money on fortifications and the defences of the realm of itself showed that urgency could very properly be pleaded in favour of those Bills; but with regard to many of those which he had mentioned, there was no such justification. It should be remembered that the Resolution was intended to prevent Bills being passed without deliberation, and being considered in a thin House, unless they were so urgent as to render their immediate consideration absolutely necessary. The fact, therefore, that Parliament was unusually prolonged, was no reason why Bills not really urgent should evade the operation of the Resolution.
  VISCOUNT DUNGANNONsaid, he believed there had been an understanding between the Government and the Irish Members in the other House to the effect that the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill should be nothing more than a Continuance Bill; and yet there had been inserted in it two important clauses, to one of which he confessed that he entertained a considerable objection. He thought that it ought to be passed as a mere continuance measure.
  LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, that the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill, as it was first
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  introduced, contained several new and important provisions; but it had been withdrawn in consequence of the opposition which it encountered. A Continuance Bill was then brought forward, and it was with the consent of the Irish Members that the two clauses to which the noble Viscount objected were inserted in the measure. One of those clauses was proposed by Mr. Hennessy, and the other was supported by Mr. Monsell, with the concurrence, as it was supposed, of the Irish Members generally.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYagreed that a Bill brought in as a Continuance Bill ought to be passed simply as a Continuance Bill, and that clauses of importance ought not to be introduced into it. The Resolution fixing the period up to which their Lordships would read Bills a second time was, in his opinion, intended not so much to limit the duration of the Session as to provide that no Bills should be hurried through the House without due consideration; and it therefore appeared to him that if from any circumstances the Session was unusually prolonged, that Resolution need not be strictly adhered to.
  LORD LYVEDENsaid, he thought it was important that some explanation should be given upon a subject to which a noble Marquess (the Marquess of Clanricarde) had already adverted. A report had gone abroad to the effect that in the present state of the Indian finances the Government believed it would be necessary for them to introduce an Indian Loan Bill before the close of the Session. He should be glad to know whether there was any truth in that rumour. He doubted whether such a measure could be brought within the exception of the Resolution.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, that if such a loan Bill were introduced he thought it might fairly be considered a measure of urgency.
  House adjourned at a Quarter before Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, Half-past Ten o'clock.