Lords Sitting of 26 July 1859

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Consolidated Fund (£7,000,000); Westminster New Bridge; Pawnbrokers; Universities (Scotland).
3a Lands Improvement Company; Sale of Gas; Speaker of the Legislative Council (Canada); North Western Territories (British America); Public Health.

MIDDLE-CLASS EDUCATION.
  PETITION.
  LORD BROUGHAM*,in presenting a petition on Middle-class Education, said, that he had, last night, understated the number of petitions and signatures, as he only referred to the 120 which he had then presented. But, altogether, there have been presented to the two Houses, last Session and this, petitions on this subject signed by about 40,000 persons. He had further to state, as a considerable encouragement to the granting what the Petitioners prayed, and in justice to them and other friends of improved Middle-class Education, that the directors of some establishments, which took an interest in the subject, were willing to assist by making their seminaries subservient to training teachers. He particularly might mention the Brighton College, under the patronage of the Bishop of Chichester. Having rendered justice to these meritorious persons, t is fit, (he said,) that I do the same by others of a more exalted class and greater influence on the happiness of the world. When, five years ago, I illustrated the humanizing effects of instruction, it appeared that, taking the best educated country and the worst, the United States and Russia, it appeared that in the former (America) the proportion of crimes attended with violence to all offences was one in twelve; in the latter (Russia) three in five—more than one-half, instead of one-twelfth. But it is most gratifying to find that the Emperor of Russia is engaged, and has been for upwards of a year-and-a-half, in the great and good work of emancipating the serfs—a measure of which the difficulty cannot be denied, but there are sanguine hopes entertained that he will overcome all obstacles to this happy consummation. The Emperor of Austria has announced his resolution, now that the late lamentable war has ceased, to devote his efforts to the improvement of his domestic institutions. It is impossible too highly to commend the manly tone of his proclamation, the honesty as well as wisdom which pervades it, admitting fairly his having been worsted in the campaign, and announcing his resolution to make the institutions of his empire more in accordance with the enlightened spirit of the age. All the advocates of sound principles, the friends of human improvement, must feel great satisfaction at such tributes to their views of policy as are thus paid by Russia and Austria.
SALE OF GAS BILL.

  THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  LORD REDESDALE,in moving the third reading of this Bill said, that gas was the only article sold by measure for securing the accuracy of which measurement there existed no legislative provision. That was the more remarkable inasmuch as the annual value of the consumption of gas throughout the kingdom was about £5,000,000. The object of the Bill, he added, was to bring the sale of gas under the provisions of the Weights and Measures Act, the machinery of which had been imported into it with that view. There were, doubtless, some difficulties in the application of the Act to this somewhat new article of consumption. One of these was the selection of properly qualified persons to be inspectors, and therefore the Bill provided for the appointment of inspectors within a period of nine months after the passing of the Act.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.
  LORD KINNAIRDsaid, the provisions of the Bill struck him as most objectionable, inasmuch as they imposed a considerable burden on the county rates, and he was not aware that their Lordships possessed the power of inflicting a tax of that nature. The machinery which would be required to carry out the working of the Bill was most expensive, and the inspectors whose appointment was contemplated would require to be persons of extensive scientific knowledge. He thought that the expense of inspection, particularly in scattered villages, ought not to be thrown on the ratepayers generally, but on the consumers of gas, who were the only persons who would derive advantage from the inspection. In Scotland, owing to the description of coal from which the gas was made, it was four times as pure as in England; notwithstanding which the Bill not only provided for inspectors, but for costly appeals from their decisions. He trusted the noble Lord would not press the Bill until time had been allowed for the consideration of its provisions. If the noble Lord persevered, he would move that the Bill be read a third time that day three months.
  Amendment moved, to leave out "now" and insert "this Day Three Months."
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREwas understood to express an opinion that the House ought not to pass the Bill without further information.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that gas was a commodity, and might be as much a subject of larcency as wine or milk, and it had been so ruled by the Judges; and it appeared from the cases which had come before the Queen's Bench, that the companies were often grossly defrauded. He trusted, therefore, that before their Lordships assented to the Bill, they would take care to render its provisions as perfect as possible, for the protection of the companies as well as of the consumer.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYexplained, that persons availing themselves of the services of the inspectors would have to pay fees, which would probably be equal in the aggregate to the salaries of those officers, and therefore little or no expense would be thrown upon the county-rate. Under these circumstances he recommended his noble Friend to withdraw his Amendment.
  Lord REDESDALE and Lord EBURY also pressed the noble Lord to withdraw his Amendment,
  LORD KINNAIRDsaid, that as it appeared to be their Lordships' wish, he would consent to do so.
  Motion by Leave of the House, withdrawn.
  The Motion agreed to.
  Bill read 3a accordingly.
  Amendments made.
  Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

  CHURCH EXTENSION.—SPIRITUAL DESTITUTION IN LARGE TOWNS.
  THE BISHOP OF LONDONrose pursuant to a notice he had given to present Petitions praying that measures may be taken to oblige the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to admit local claims on the property in their hands and for the Promotion of Church Extension. The right rev. Prelate said, he had been entrusted with various petitions on the subject of the spiritual destitution of large towns, especially in the manufacturing districts of England. Three of these petitions were from the county of Durham, and one of them was from the Church Building Society of Llandaff, and the other— the most important in his estimation— was from the London Diocesan Church Building Society. The object of the petitions was similar, and was intended to draw the attention of their Lordships to the Report of a Select Committee which sat last year, and which produced a very voluminous and interesting report which

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  had a very great effect on the country at large. The petitioners were afraid that no results would follow from the report of that Select Committee. It was not unusual to find a disagreeable subject shelved by being referred to a Select Committee up stairs, and he was afraid that there was some reason to believe that the very important question which the Bishop of Exeter brought before them last year would be in that way shelved. The petitioners prayed, not that Parliament by legislation should interfere with voluntary efforts for the support of religion, but that their legislation should be so conducted as to give full scope to these voluntary efforts. They prayed also that that portion of the Ecclesiastical Commission which was now entrusted with the department of church building should be a separate department. They complained of the difficulties that often stood in their way by the vexatious investigation of the titles of land given for the purposes of church building, and they prayed that facilities might be given on that point such as were possessed by the Enclosure Commission. They also prayed for a relaxation of the Mortmain Act, so that tenants for life should have fresh powers to be able to grant sites. But the point of the greatest practical importance in the petitions was connected with a decision to which last summer their Lordships had come with reference to the mode of disposing of Church property by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. The Select Committee to which he had referred having received a great deal of evidence as to spiritual destitution in the metropolis and other places, were of opinion that the mode in which the funds at the disposal of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were distributed by Act of Parliament was not the best. It was felt by the Committee that when the Church possessed property in districts where circumstances led to the accumulation of large masses of the population on the spot, the first purpose to which that property should be applied was to relieve the spiritual wants of the people there accumulated. He might mention, as an illustration, one of the parishes in the diocese of Durham, from which he had presented a petition, in which the population had increased since the discovery of mines from 500 to 13,000. The first object should be to apply the property of the Church in that district to the spiritual wants of that mining population. He was informed that the proprietors of the mines
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  were the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. He was himself a Commissioner, and he did not, in what he said, wish to be understood as casting any blame upon that body; but the fact was that £150 annually was all that was secured to the clergyman in this mining district, the population of which had increased to 13,000. If discontent existed on that head he granted it was unreasonable to attribute it to the Commissioners, who were bound to act in a certain way by an Act of Parliament, which did not authorize them to consider local complaints unless the property in question was tithe property. Now when this subject was brought before the Select Committee a resolution was passed recommending that the law should be altered with regard to it. In this metropolis the Ecclesiastical Commission, in connection with a single stall in St. Paul's, was in possession of an annual rental of £7,000, with a certainty that this rental would soon increase to £60,000, and it was not likely that voluntary subscriptions would be raised to relieve the spiritual wants of a district in which the Church was known to possess property to that amount. Most wisely, in his opinion, giving way to this feeling, the Select Committee on Spiritual Destitution recommended that in future legislation in regard to the Ecclesiastical Commission a clause should be introduced to make it incumbent on the Commission to attend to the local claims of those places in which the Church had property, whether that property was in tithes, lands, or houses. He did not mean to say that this should apply to the Church property in a rich parish like Paddington, but to places where there was actual spiritual destitution. The same opinion was expressed by another Select Committee which sat on the subject of the Ecclesiastical Commission in the same Session, who gave their attention to a Bill to enable the Commission better to administer Church property. A Bill was accordingly drawn embodying their Resolution, which had given great satisfaction to the working Clergy of the poorer districts; but in the Session before last it fell to the ground before receiving the Royal Assent. Next Session another Bill was introduced, but it was the same Bill only in appearance, and kept the word of promise only to the ear. It was introduced by the right hon. Gentleman who was Home Secretary at the time; but, instead of making it imperative on the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to consider the spiritual wants of such

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  localities as those to which he had referred, it gave them a permissive power to do so or not. Now, in dealing with a corporation there was a vast difference between giving them a permissive power and commanding them to act in a certain way. It was sometimes questioned whether corporations had consciences. That was a difficult point to decide; but this was perfectly certain, that if the officials of a corporation had a strong opinion one way, and you gave them the power of acting in another way, you had very little chance of inducing them to act in the way you wished. For some reason or another it was certain that the officials of the Ecclesiastical Commission had a strong objection to any relaxation of the present law on this subject. They probably did not wish that any part of the vast Bums which were accumulating in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commission should be so distributed among the incumbents of parishes that needed help as to be settled upon them for ever. They preferred having a large common fund in their own hands. That Bill, however, from whatever cause, like its many predecessors, did not become law. Another Bill had now been framed; but the petitioners prayed their Lordships not to sanction that or any other Bill on this subject which did not contain the clauses that had been deliberately recommended by two Select Committees of their Lordships' House. The petitioners prayed their Lordships to remember that in all legislation for the Ecclesiastical Commission the first thing they had to consider was the spiritual destitution of the country. In his opinion the Bill now before Parliament would confer new power on the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. [Earl Granville said it was irregular to discuss a Bill not yet before their Lordships.] He would, then, make no further allusion to that Bill, except to express a hope that their Lordships would read it with great care when it came before them. If that or any other Bill that might come before their Lordships enabled the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to get out of a difficulty, and gave them the power of doing what they now could not do, and did not provide for the spiritual destitution of the country, by a more considerate attention to the claims of the places in which Church property was situated, he trusted they would hesitate very much before they gave it their assent. He regretted to say that no large measures were ever introduced to extend the efficiency of the Church of England. The object of most measures with regard to the
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  Church was either to cut down a canonry of £1,200 a year to £1,000, or to cut a large living into three small ones. These, of course, were important objects, but they did not really touch the spiritual destitution which was abroad in the land. The inhabitants of this metropolis were increasing at the rate of 60,000 a year, and all the churches (200) that were built by his immediate predecessor were insufficient to overtake the growing wants of the community. It was true that individuals had exerted themselves greatly in this matter; but it was felt that unless their Lordships endeavoured to give free scope to voluntary efforts, so as to enable those who were willing to make such efforts to do so with some chance of success, there was great danger of this metropolis falling into a very alarming state. Much as their Lordships' attention was engaged by questions of foreign policy at this moment, he hoped that the more important question of the spiritual condition of this great metropolis and of the country at large would not be forgotten, and coinciding with the petitioners, he most earnestly entreated their Lordships to give encouragement to the many noble-hearted individuals who were now ready, as they had been in times past, to do what they could to remove the difficulties which stood in the way of voluntary efforts for meeting the spiritual destitution of the country. As attempts were being made to abolish church rates, it was important to bear in mind that those rates yielded £100,000 a year more than the Ecclesiastical Commissioners had been able, during the many years since their appointment, to accumulate for annual distribution.
  THE EARL OF CHICHESTERsaid, he thought it right that their Lordships' minds should be disabused of some misapprehensions contained in the petition which had been presented by the right rev. Prelate. He (the Earl of Chichester) felt as strongly as the right rev. Prelate the great importance of fairly and anxiously considering the spiritual destitution which prevailed in the metropolis, and no one was more desirous than he was of giving his assistance, whether in his legislative or his private capacity, for the removal of the evil. With all deference, however, to the respectable gentlemen forming the committee of the society whose petition had just been laid on the table, it would appear that they had not secured the confidence of the wealthy Churchmen of the diocese, the subscription they had received amounting to a miserably

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  small sum, considering the extent of the district in which they were collected. He believed that if they had obtained public confidence the subscriptions would have been vastly more considerable, though he was quite unable to say on what grounds that confidence was withheld. The right rev. Prelate had often said that the Church must look to the liberality of its own members to supply its deficiencies; but the petitioners, passing over that suggestion, expressed in very intelligible language their desire for some legislative enactment not merely for facilitating the raising of voluntary contributions, but for adding to the endowments of the Church. The petitioners also recommended that in order to promote church extension facilities should be given for the conveyance of sites, and they stated their opinion that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, being over-burdened with the task of managing church estates, should devolve the duty of superintending the conveyance of sites, to a separate branch of the Commission. That part of the petition showed that the petitioners could have had no communication with the right rev. Prelate, himself an Ecclesiastical Commissioner, or they would have learnt that the business in question was at present conducted by a distinct department of the Commission. It had in the office not yet been found by those connected with that body that the labour thrown upon it was greater than could be performed by a single Commission. Some complaint had been made as to the manner in which the Commission inquired into the titles of grantors; but it was evident that considerable misapprehension existed on that point. The legal expenses connected with these investigations of title—a very fair criterion as to whether they were conducted in a vexatious or dilatory manner or not—were very moderate indeed. In nine cases out of ten the inquiry instituted was more a matter of form than anything else; but in a few instances the titles were evidently of a questionable character, and of course there was some trouble incident to their proper investigation. The petitioners suggested that the provisions of the Enclosure Commission Act should be extended to the case of sites granted for the building of churches. Now, that Act contained a clause enabling land to be given in exchange for land of equal value and for giving a secure title to the land so dealt with; but it also provided that any land so taken should be saddled with any mortgages or other charges
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  to which the property for which it had been exchanged was subject. That proviso, however, would not apply to the case they were now considering. It was no doubt a very convenient and proper provision in cases of exchange, but simply and altogether inapplicable to a grant of land on the sale of it for a money consideration. With regard to the practice under existing statutes he would observe that when a site was to be conveyed by the grantor to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, on which in a year or two an outlay of £5,000, £10,000, or even £20,000, might be laid out, it was surely important that those who subscribed their money for the erection of a church should have some security that they would not afterwards be disturbed in the possession of the property. It was on this account that some precautions as to title was considered necessary.
  LORD EBURYsaid, that as the noble Earl had spased some scrictures upon the society to which he belonged he thought it right to make a few observations for the purpose of setting that society right with the House and the country. If that society did not possess the confidence of the public they would not have been able to deal as largely as they had done with the spiritual destitution which existed in the metropolis. The noble Earl had attributed to the society a desire to obtain a grant from Parliament. Now there was nothing of the sort mentioned in the petition, and the words "open manifestation on the part of Parliament" simply referred to the legislative measures which Parliament might in its wisdom adopt. He could assure his noble Friend that the society had no idea of asking for a grant; and he (Lord Ebury) would for himself exceedingly deprecate a grant of public money, because it would put an end to that individual flow of liberality which had recently been experienced. It was alleged that the society promoted only the building of churches; the fact was that besides building churches one of their functions was to provide stipends for missionary curates to build up the spiritual church in destitute districts before the material one was erected. It would be more properly denominated the Parochial Extension Society, its grand object to divide the enormously overgrown parishes of the metropolis into something like manageable partitions. With regard to the often-contested point of giving attention first to local claims, Committees of both Houses had recommended the principle,

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  and the Earl of Derby, accepting the recommendation, had inserted in it a Bill which was then before their Lordships. The Bill passed that House by acclamation, and he had never been able to imagine what had induced Mr. Walpole to withdraw it when it reached the House of Commons. He hoped the present Government would take the matter into their consideration, and again bring forward that Bill. The spiritual destitution in the metropolis was very great, and few who had not inquired into the matter had any conception of its real extent. They were soon going to grant a considerable extension of the political franchise, and they might depend upon it that the opinion of the middle classes, or rather the lower middle classes, would be the ruling opinion of the country hereafter. He would ask their Lordships to consider the probable consequences of that extension with education at its present low ebb, among a great mass of the people—for spiritual destitution did not imply simply an absence of religion, but also an absence of that early education and moral teaching which constituted an invariable corollary of the parochial system.
  THE BISHOP OF OXFORDsaid, there was one point alluded to in the course of the discussion, upon which he was anxious to say a single word. He trusted that any Bill coming up from the other House, or which might be passed by this House, would contain the full recognition of the local claims which that House had twice so emphatically by its Select Committees pronounced to be claims of justice and right. There was a great misapprehension as to what that claim was. The local claim was not in any sense a claim to give the whole property to the place in which the property itself was situated. It was simply this, that the spiritual necessities of the place in which the income arose should first be considered. He thought it required no inconsiderable amount of hardihood for any one to stand up in his place there and to say it was just or right to give the property of the Church away to distant localities, whilst no consideration was recognized as to the spiritual wants of the place itself. They heard on every occasion the trite saying, that property had its duties as well as its rights. Could it be right, he asked, that in respect to property held in right for the spiritual welfare of the laud that great and universally admitted canon should be ruthlessly set aside? Could it be justified that, seeing
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  the property of those parishes set apart for the spiritual benefit of the people, that men who were living on the estate, and who actually furnished the money, should receive no consideration as to their spiritual necessities in the voting away of those funds? It seemed to him to be a proposition which, when robbed of its entanglements, it was impossible for any man soberly to maintain. They had been told that the principles on which the Ecclesiastical Commission proceeded were the principles laid down for their observance when Parliament sanctioned their appointment. Now, that observation might be very true; but it should be recollected that those principles had been laid down in a state of uncertainty as to the degree to which the claims might be urged—they might have taken up the whole fund, and so have rendered relief to distant places impossible. That difficulty was now solved. There was no doubt that after the local claims were satisfied there would remain a considerable surplus for distant places. They did not ask Parliament to stay the flow of that surplus to distant places. All they asked was, that according to every principle of justice the place where the property itself was situated should have its own spiritual necessities first considered. He earnestly pressed that question upon the Government for this reason; if the Session were earlier, and that they could secure a full House—if that House which had already expressed its opinion upon the question could be again called upon to consider it, he could not for a moment doubt what that opinion would be. But it was possible in the present state of the Session for a Bill to pass this House and be supported by the Government, which would not be allowed to pass at an earlier period of the Session. He thought, therefore, that great responsibilty rested on the Government, and that they should not allow any principle to pass in a Bill which they could satisfy themselves would not have been suffered if the House were in a position to express a deliberate opinion upon it. He earnestly pressed those points on the attention of the Government on behalf of numbers of persons who considered that they had just claims to their consideration; and the refusal of which was doing the mischief already pointed out. It was alienating a large amount of the population from their legislation, and was preventing the voluntary contributions of persons who were angry at this refusal. He

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  pressed upon the Government the necessity of considering this question with the view to a satisfactory settlement of it. He pressed upon the Government the favourable consideration of the claims which not only the rights of conscience, but also the expressed opinion of the House, would justify them in acceding to.
  LORD REDESDALEthought that the local claims of the people from whom the property was derived should be especially considered. He believed it would be but just to admit the particular provision indicated in the speech of the right rev. Prelate, and to draw a distinction between diocesan and parochial claims.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the question before their Lordships was clearly one as to the best mode of supplying the spiritual destitution which now existed, and he agreed with a noble Lord who had spoken that much might be said on both sides. He thought it would be undesirable to give to the Commissioners powers of doing that about which there was no dispute. He thought that the peculiar features of the question had been very fairly stated; but he must add, that the Government were not yet prepared to act definitely on the propositions that had been suggested.
  Petitions ordered to lie on the table.
  House adjourned at half-past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow half-past Ten o'clock.