Lords Sitting of 19 July 1859

MINUTES
. PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Speaker of the Legislative Council (Canada); North Western Territories (British America); Public Health. 3a Clerk of the Council.
RIGHT OF INTERMENT.

  PETITION.
  LORD BROUGHAM presented a Petition from the family of a respectable farmer in the county of Leicester, who had undergone extreme suffering through what he would call a legal misunderstanding on the part of the vicar of the parish. Towards the latter end of last week the father of the petitioners unfortunately committed suicide. An inquest was held the same day, and the jury returned a verdict of "temporary insanity." He regretted that none of the right rev. Bishops were present, as he should particularly wish to call their attention to this case. The verdict of "tem-
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  porary insanity" left no doubt as to the right of the deceased to sepulture in the parish church; and the refusal was the more cruel as the deceased had been born and baptized in the parish, had lived in it all his life, had filled church offices there, and was one of the largest ratepayers in the locality. Moreover, his wife had been buried in the parish church-yard. But when application was made to the vicar, to know at what hour it would be convenient to him to perform the burial service, to the astonishment and grief of his family he refused not only to perform the burial service, but would not allow the body to be interred in the church-yard. This resolution he persevered in, notwithstanding that the family offered to let their father be buried without having service read over the body, as he objected to do so. He (Lord Brougham) had made this statement from the Petition—having no other information on the subject. The churchwardens applied to the vicar but failed to shake his determination. The consequence was that

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  the body remained unburied, first at the inn for many hours, and afterwards at the dead-house, when the officer of health directed it to be removed. Some further delay took place, for it was requisite to seek out some other place of interment, and when, in the course of a day or two, the family had been able to purchase a piece of ground for the purpose, they were fortunate enough to meet with another clergyman who did not entertain the same scruples, or who was not labouring under the same hallucination, and he at once consented to perform the funeral service. The wishes of the family, however, that the remains of their unhappy parent might repose beside his wife in the burying-ground were frustrated. They therefore prayed their Lordships to render them any relief that might be in their power; or if it was unfortunately the case that any law existed which would justify the proceeding of this clergyman, then they prayed the House to make such alteration in it as would prevent the recurrence of a similar circumstance.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, if the right rev. Prelates were present, he was sure they would concur with his hon. and learned Friend and himself in deploring the mistake which the rev. gentleman had committed. No doubt whatever could exist that the vicar was altogether wrong in point of law, and that the person named in the petition was entitled to Christian burial, according to the rites of the Church of England. The vicar had no right to form and act upon his own opinion, contrary to that which had been expressed by the jury.
  LORD BROUGHAMsaid he had purposely abstained from mentioning the name of the clergyman, who had acted, he had no doubt, from conscientious scruples.

RIOTS AT KINSALE.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF RIPONsaid, it would be in the recollection of the House that the noble Marquess near him (the Marquess of Clanricarde) put a Question to him the other evening relative to a riot at Kinsale in which the Antrim Militia were said to be concerned, and accompanied his Question with some remarks. He the Earl of Ripon had received a letter on the subject from Lord Massereene, the commanding officer of the Antrim Militia, which he would take the liberty to read to the House:—
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  "My Lords,—I have this moment seen with much surprize in The Times almost exaggerated statement of Lord Clanricarde's in the House respecting the late riot in Kinsale; there was no such thing as an attack by the Antrim Artillery on either convent, chapel, or priest. The officers, although denying altogether their liability, and under the strongest protest, have paid the Magistrates £50, the sum demanded by them for damage, and so strongly were they impressed with the falsity of the reports which had been circulated, and which no doubt induced Lord Clanricarde to use the language attributed to him, that they have employed an eminent solicitor, in order that the most searching inquiries might be made into the conduct of both officers and men. A letter has been received from a most respectable and influential resident in the town, stating that the attack was premeditated against the regiment by the inhabitants, and I am confident that the impending court of inquiry will fully elucidate these facts. I left London on Thursday immediately on receiving a telegram about the riot, and assumed the command of the regiment. Having learnt the true state of the affair, I beg your Lordship will, in justice to me, take the earliest opportunity of affording the information I have deemed it my duty to give you to the House.
  "I beg to remain your Lordship's very faithful servant,
  "MASSEREENE,
  Lieutenant-Colonel Commandant of the Antrim Artillery."
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, it would be in the recollection of the House that he merely stated what had appeared in the papers. There had been two reports taken from the local papers, in which there was a slight variation in terms, but the purport of both was the same.

BARRACKS AT GALWAY.

  QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEasked the noble Earl the under Secretary for War, whether any steps have been yet taken for the Erection of new Barracks at Galway beyond the large Expenses incurred by the Purchase of Land and the Construction of a Bridge?
  THE EARL OF RIPONsaid, the subject of barracks generally was one of great importance. He was not prepared to deny that the barracks to which the noble Marquess alluded were in a bad state; but it was impossible for Government to give any money this year for barracks at Gal-way. The subject would receive the con-

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  sideration of his right hon. Friend the Secretary for War. No land had been purchased by the Government. The land alluded to was held under a lease in perpetuity at the rent of £60. One portion of it was used for the exercise of the troops.

TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION WITH THE COLONIES.—PETITION.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY presented a Petition from Bankers, Merchants, and others, in favour of the Establishment of direct Lines of Submarine Telegraphs between Great Britain and Her Majesty's Possessions abroad. The noble Lord said the Petition emanated chiefly from the City of London, and was signed by the Lord Mayor, the City Members, several Aldermen, several large banking firms, and most of the great commercial and mercantile houses, who all agreed in representing the importance of our possessing telegraphic communication with our foreign possessions, independent of any other nation, and in praying their Lordships to adopt such measures as might, as far as possible, promote the establishment of direct lines of submarine telegraph between Great Britain and her possessions abroad, especially India. It was impossible, in his (Lord Stanley's) opinion, to establish communications with our colonial possessions, which should be free from interruption by any foreign Power, and should secure the transmission of messages without delay, falsification, or other interference. At present the line by which we communicated with our establishments in the Mediterranean passed through France, and in the event of a war might be cut off at pleasure. It was not three weeks since he saw an article in a French newspaper of no slight importance, that now was the time to humble perfidious Albion, and to restore Gibraltar to the Spaniards. A sudden Attack might be made upon our possessions in the Mediterranean, and it was of the utmost importance that Her Majesty's Government should have the means of receiving rapid intelligence from that quarter. The submarine electric telegraph was the medium by which such intelligence could be conveyed to the Government. We could girdle the whole world with telegraphic wires, and thus inform ourselves with lightning speed of any attack upon our possessions abroad. There were two courses by which we could obtain the inestimable advantages of tele-
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graphic lines of communication with our distant possessions. Her Majesty's Government could permit private individuals or companies to lay down telegraphic lines between this country and any of its Colonies under such regulations as it might think fit; or it might itself establish such lines, and commit the superintendence of them to the Post-office Department. What, in fact, was sending a message by a telegraphic wire but sending a letter by telegraph instead of by post? The Post-office Department was admirably conducted. It possessed all the requisite machinery and officers for superintending telegraphic lines, and there was no part of our possessions abroad at which there was not an English post-office agent ready to receive any telegraphic communication that might be forwarded to him. The expense of this addition to the ordinary work of the Post Office would be but trifling. He was not suggesting anything new. The whole of the telegraphic lines on the Continent were in the hands of the Continental Governments, and he believed that, instead of being a serious expense to the countries in which they were laid down, those lines were on the contrary a source of great profit. The telegraphic line which Her Majesty's Government made between Varna and the Crimea, a distance of about 400 miles, during the Russian war, answered all its purposes, and cost not much more than £30,000. This question of telegraphic communication with our foreign possessions should be seriously considered by Her Majesty's Government. He was happy to learn from the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer last night that a sum of money had been voted this Session for the purchase of cables to form a telegraphic line between England and Gibraltar, which was to be the first part of an independent line of communication between this country and the East. Again, notwithstanding the failure of the Atlantic telegraph, he thought the attempt should be persevered in to establish a submarine telegraph communication between this country and our American colonies, taking care to keep that line entirely under our own control. Probably the best way of accomplishing works of that kind was by inviting tenders, and he trusted that if such tenders were invited Her Majesty's Government would make it known, that no unjust concessions would be made to any party, and that the contracts would be made without favour or affection.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he cordially concurred with the noble Baron in thinking it quite intolerable that this country should be dependent on foreign nations for the correct transmisssion of orders to our fleets and armies in time of war, either in the Mediterranean or any other part of the world. We ought to have in our own hands the means of independent communication, and he was glad, therefore, to hear that the present Government had taken the same view of the matter as the late Government, and had taken a sum on account for the purpose of establishing an "independent communication with Gibraltar." It was impossible to overestimate the advantage of having the means of independent communication in our hands, and of being able to move our fleets and armies at the shortest possible notice without the knowledge of any one. Those who were acquainted with the events of the war which ended in 1815, would remember that this country had been exposed to several great perils, which would have been entirely prevented by the possession of telegraphic communication. He wished, however, to draw their Lordships' attention to one point in connection with the matter. In the event of an invasion, the first points of which an enemy would endeavour to make himself master would be the points at which our telegraphic communications commenced, which at present were entirely unprotected. It would be of the greatest importance for an enemy to get possession of our telegraphic communications with Prance and the rest of the Continent. He would be able to give a false impression abroad of what occurred here, to send false orders to our troops and fleets, and ultimately to destroy our communications altogether, and rob us of the advantages which we might otherwise expect from them while he possessed his own communications. It was, therefore, of the utmost importance that we should have the means of securing their possession. He should be very glad to see a renewal of the attempt to establish telegraphic communications with America, since it would have so great an effect in drawing the two nations closer together. He thought that on the occasion of the first cable being laid, the people of the United States had indicated a strong and excellent feeling, which it was most desirable to foster. Looking forward to the future, the probability was that the two great branches of the Anglo-Saxon race would find it their interest and their honour to
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draw much closer the bonds which already existed between them, and with a view to the protection of their mutual interest to act according to some treaty of defensive alliance. Events were now taking place in Europe which were likely to lead to a realization of this union, to which he had looked forward for many years. It would be most desirable, though it might be very expensive, and not very remunerative, to establish a telegraphic communication with the West Coast of Africa. We had at all times on that coast a large maritime force. The "sentimental squadron," as he used to call it, for the protection of the negroes, occupied some 3,000 or 4,000 seamen, and altogether a number of seamen equal to the crews of six line-of-battle ships, whose presence at home might some day or other be very essential, were employed in looking after the interests of African negroes. The first order given at the commencement of a war ought to be that the whole of this force should spread itself out above and below the Line—along the great route of commerce— so that every mercartile vessel of the enemy should of necessity fall into our hands. It was his intention to have done that when there was a probability of war breaking out some years ago. All the stations at which telegraphic communications joined or commenced ought to be furnished with means of defence, though, considering the amount of money which had been spent on fortifications, and the little there was to show for it, the public might very likely shrink from the expense. And, while on the subject of fortifications, he would suggest to the noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty how desirable it would be that the attention of some of our principal Engineers should be directed to the practicability of applying steam power to excavating earthworks. Such an application would be of the greatest value in making docks, and of still more value if we should determine to defend our arsenals by the kind of fortifications which were carried to such an extent at Sebastopol.
EARL GRANVILLEagreed with the two noble Lords who had preceded him as to the importance of connecting ourselves with our foreign possessions by independent lines of communication. The suggestions of the noble Earl who had just sat down were of the greatest importance, and would receive the attention of the Government. He particularly agreed with the noble Earl

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as to the expediency of drawing closer the bonds which unite us with America, and of encouraging in every way the good feeling which existed between the two countries. With regard to the noble Baron's question, the late Government, he believed, had formed a plan for connecting England with Malta by Gibraltar, and they had entered into a contract for the manufacture of a cable to be laid down as far as Gibraltar. There was great doubt, however, whether it was possible to lay it down this summer, and her Majesty's Government had determined not to make the attempt, though the manufacture of the cable was still being continued.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that if the cable were not laid down in six weeks it would certainly be impossible to lay it this year. As to the necessity of placing in a state of security the points from which the telegraphic lines left the shore, he had communicated with the late Duke of Wellington upon the subject, and he entirely concurred with him in the views which he had expressed. He concluded that Her Majesty's Government were taking some measures for the general defence of the coast, and he would suggest that their attention should be directed to the points at which the railways going to the east, to Dovor, and to the west touched the sea. The lines had not been drawn with any military consideration, and were exposed to the greatest peril.
THE DUKE OF SOMERSETexplained that the Government had been induced to take a few more weeks in proceeding with the Gibraltar cable to prevent failure, which was represented as the possible consequence of too great haste. Vessels had been sent out by the late Government to survey the bottom of the sea between England and Gibraltar, and it was desirable to have their reports before laying down the cable.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHasked whether a light or a heavy description of cable had been adopted?
THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, it was a light cable of a new kind.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHthought it very important that they should get a good and level bottom, even if they went out of a direct course to get it, so that, when established, the communication might be preserved.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, there was now a line of telegraph between Aden and Alexandria, but none between Malta and Alexandria, belonging to an
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English Company. The Red Sea Telegraph, under certain circumstances, would, therefore, be practically useless for Government purposes. He wished to know whether the Government intended to take any steps to establish a telegraphic line between Malta and Alexandria.
LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, it was with the Turkish Government the difficulty originated of laying down a line of telegraphic communication between Malta and Alexandria. That difficulty had not yet been removed; but Her Majesty's Government were still in communication with the Government of the Porte upon the subject. It appeared that the Turkish Government had made to certain parties the concession of an exclusive right of laying down such a line; but the matter was, it seemed, still open for consideration.
VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE RED-CLIFFEsaid, he was prepared to support the general prayer of the petition which had just been presented to the House; but after the able address of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Ellenborough) and the satisfactory explanation of his noble Friend the President of the Council, he did not think it necessary to trespass at any length on their Lordships' time. It could hardly be doubted that submarine telegraphs, having their point of departure in England and enabling us to communicate with our distant settlements in a manner at once the most direct and the least liable to interruption, would be of great advantage both to the Government and to the nation. During the period of his official residence in Constantinople he had become deeply impressed with the importance not only of our establishing a telegraphic communication with the East, but of our having as many alternative lines as possible. He saw, moreover, the importance of our possessing the means of defending the point of departure in the case of our adopting a system of submarine telegraphs from this country, and it would be extremely desirable that a similar security should, if possible, be obtained for the termination of the line in Egypt, though he could not be blind to the difficulty of obtaining that object. The whole subject was one of deep interest, and the country would, in his opinion, be justified in incurring a very consideable outlay for a more complete attainment of the proposed results.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that the difficulty of obtaining security for the station at Suez had already occurred

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to him. It appeared to him that it would be better the station should be some miles removed from Suez.

THE DANUBIAN PRINCIPALITIES.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE RED-CLIFFEsaid, he wished to put a question to the Government with regard to the Danubian Principalities, which, it was well known, presented one of those questions in connection with the interests of the Turkish empire which had been referred to the consideration of the Congress at Paris. It had lately come to his knowledge in a general way that some difficulties accompanied the arrangement of that part of the question which related to the Administration of the two countries under one Prince, and their consequent union as a single Government. He wished to ask Her Majesty's Ministers whether they had any objection to inform him what the state of the negotiations was at the present moment, and it would then remain with him to consider whether it necessarily formed part of his duty to bring this question before the House.
  LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, he had no difficulty in informing the noble Lord in what position the question now stood. After the election of Colonel Couza as Hospodar of both Principalities it became necessary to refer to the different Powers who were parties to the Paris Congress to consider what should be done. A Conference was held to take the matter into consideration, and the result at which they arrived was, that it was advisable for the Porte on this single occasion to recognize Colonel Couza as the Hospodar of both Principalities. It was, no doubt, an exception from the principle laid down at the Congress that there should be one Hospodar for Wallachia and another for Moldavia; but it was thought to be better to treat the present as an exceptional case, and to recognize the election. This Conference was held before the late change of Government. The Porte had made some difficulties as to the precise form in which the recognition of Colonel Couza was to be made; but he had no doubt that an arrangement would be effected. The basis of which would be that Colonel Couza should be recognized as Hospodar of the two Principalities in this one single instance.
  VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE RED-CLlFFEthanked the noble Lord for the
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  manner in which he had replied to his question. The matter to which it related was one of very serious consequence as affecting the interests of the Turkish empire. He must say, however, he greatly regretted that the important principles laid down as to the union between the two Principalities by the Congress of Paris should have been so incompletely maintained. If the double election of Colonel Couza was to be recognized, it should be regarded as a strictly exceptional case, and a distinct guarantee ought to be given to the Porte that the principle laid down by the Paris Congress should be respected in future.
  LORD WODEHOUSErepeated the assurance that the recognition of Colonel Couza as Hospodar of both Principalities was treated only as an exceptional case.
  House adjourned at half-past Six o'clock, till To-morrow half-past Ten o'clock.