Lords Sitting of 14 July 1859

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament.—The Duke of Leeds—after the Death of his Cousin; The Viscount Hood—after the Death of his Father.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Attorneys and Solicitors.

AFFAIRS OF ITALY.
  NOTICE OF MOTION WITHDRAWN.
  LORD STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFEsaid, that as he had lately postponed the Motion of which he had given notice on this subject in consequence of the receipt of the news of an armistice, he wished now to state that in consequence of the still more important news which had since been received the Motion would drop altogether. If at any future time it should be necessary to call attention to the correspondence laid on the table, it must be under a different form, and he would therefore now ask permission to withdraw the notice of Motion which he had placed on the table.
ATTORNEYS AND SOLICITORS BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said that its object was to improve the education of attorneys and solicitors. He would not dwell on the importance of that branch of the legal profession, or the confidence necessarily reposed in them in all the affairs of life. Although some amongst them, such as the late Mr. Roscoe, of Liverpool, had great literary acquirements, it was generally that they had not received a liberal education, being too much engrossed in early life by professional
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  pursuits. This Bill was intended to facilitate and encourage literary studies in the case of young men designed for that profession—and for this purpose it offered certain advantages to those who should have taken a degree at Oxford or Cambridge, or at the Universities of Dublin, Durham or London, or in the Queen's University in Ireland. At present before a man could be admitted to practise as an attorney he must have served under articles for five years. It was now proposed that those who had taken University degrees should be admitted after serving three years in clerkship under articles. It was also proposed that any young man who had successfully passed the middle-class examination lately established throughout the country by the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, should have his clerkship abridged by one year, so that it would only be necessary for him to serve under articles four years instead of five. Another clause extended the 6th and 7th Vic, c. 73, to persons articled for four years, one of which might be served with a barrister. Another clause of the Bill gave power to the Judges to form regulations by which, before an attorney entered into his clerkship, he should undergo an examination, and this examination should be reviewed before he was admitted to practice. These enactments were to extend to the attorneys of the counties palatine of Lancaster and Durham. It might be asked how these regulations would compare with those for the education of members of the bar. He was ashamed to say that this had been formerly in a very lamentable condition; but it was not necessary to introduce any legislative measure on the subject because the Inns of Court had abundant power in their hands to deal with it. A system had now been established, mainly through the exertions of his learned Friend Sir Richard Bethell, the present Attorney General, by which before any student was called to the bar by an Inn of Court, he must undergo an examination, or give proof of regular attendance at lectures. That system had already been productive of the best results, and it was to be hoped that the Bill now proposed would do as much to improve the education of the other branch of the profession.
  LORD BROUGHAMexpressed his approbation of the Bill.
  Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Tuesday next.

HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, that before he put the Question of which he had given notice to the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Newcastle) he would ask their Lordships' permission to make a few remarks upon the very important subject to which it referred. He wished to ask the noble Duke whether the Government proposed, during the present Session, to take any steps in reference to the North American Territories over which hitherto the Hudson's Bay Company have held an exclusive Licence of Trade with the Indians. Their Lordships were aware that the rights and claims of the Hudson's Bay Company to the territories which they now governed were of a two-fold character; first, that territory which they held round that great inland sea, the Hudson's Bay, and the rivers and streams that run into it, which they possesed by charter granted by Charles II.; and second, that vast district running inland to the base of the Rocky Mountains, and extending over nearly 1800 miles, which they held by virtue of an exclusive license to trade with the Indians. In 1821 an Act of Parliament was passed which empowered the Crown to issue licences for the occupation of this district, and advantage was immediately taken of it by the Hudson's Bay Company to obtain the occupation of the country. Those licences were renewed from time to time, and the last granted in 1838 for twenty-one years; they were now on the eve of expiring, and his right hon. Friend, who was lately at the head of the Colonial Office (Sir E. Bulwer Lytton), after the fullest consideration he could give to the subject, came to the opinion that it was inexpedient to renew the licence on the same terms as heretofore. Great changes were taking place, year after year, in that region of the world; British Columbia had risen to a very considerable position, and Canada itself had acquired a great augmentation of population and wealth. All these conditions were adverse to the renewal of the licence. There was a strong opinion, also, prevailing upon the subject both here and in Canada, adverse to the renewal of the licence. His right hon. Friend had therefore determined not to renew the licence. But as it was obviously a very dangerous policy to allow this extensive tract of country to remain altogether whithout a Government his right hon. Friend proposed to renew the Hud-
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  son's Bay Company for one year, and afterwards he extended his offer to two years, to allow time for some other arrangement to be made for the government of the country; but the Hudson's Bay Company declined both offers. It was not for him to question the grounds on which they had come to that decision; but certainly, considering the long connection they had had with the district, the advantages they had hitherto derived from it, and the close relation in which they had hitherto been with the Indians, he thought they incurred a serious responsibility by their conduct. But he thought his right hon. Friend was justified in not offering to extend the renewal of the licence for more than two years, because in the course of that time they might expect great changes to take place over the whole northern portion of that continent. The rise of the colony of British Columbia had greatly fostered the growth of colonization there, and though it was not more than twelve months since that colony sprang into existence there was already a population there of 10,000 persons. In the course of the next two years, therefore, there was every reason to expect that arrangements would be made which would enable the Government to arrange for the government of this territory in a more satisfactory and permanent manner. As it was, the reasons which first formed the justification for granting the licences, and thus securing to the Hudson's Bay Company a practical monopoly of these hunting grounds, no longer existed. At the time when these licences were first granted there had been a feud between the Hudson's Bay Company and the North-West Company, in which blood was shed, and frequent atrocities committed, and it became necessary for the Government to interfere, at all hazards, to secure peace. At that time the Canadas and the other British North American provinces were in a very undeveloped state; questions of internal administration naturally occupied their attention, and diverted them from any connection with a district which geographically was then so far separated from them. If therefore those vast hunting grounds to the north-west, divided from Canada by lakes and rivers, and by an immense interval of space, had been placed under the Canadian jurisdiction, that jurisdiction would have been little more than nominal. On the other hand, to have abandoned the territory would have been to invite a recurrence of the old feuds.

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  The exclusive licence was therefore bestowed on the Hudson's Bay Company. But now all these circumstances were materially modified. He certainly did not mean to argue the question of monopoly on general grounds, as he believed all their Lordships were convinced that a monopoly, except the most pressing necessity could be shown for its existence, was indefensible. But it was argued that there were such grounds to be urged in favour of the monopoly of the Hudson's Bay Company; and, first of all, it was said that their monopoly was essential to the welfare of the natives. Now, he was ready to admit that their rule over the natives had, been mild and on the whole beneficial; but they had kept them in the most absolute and child-like dependence on the Company not only for the luxuries and conveniences of life, but for the most common necessaries—for powder and shot, food and clothing. This state of things rendered it necessary to proceed with caution, lest the sudden withdrawal of that superintendence should prove destructive to the Indians; and therefore he trusted that the noble Duke, if he made any changes, would exercise the utmost vigilance as to their working, else the population of this district might be exposed to some serious catastrophe. Then it was said that this monopoly was the only means by which they could preserve the fur trade. Now, he was quite willing to admit the value of that trade, but surely it would not be maintained that it was the all-important subject for consideration in this House. He, for one, saw no difficulty in devoting a considerable portion of the territory—say the northern portion, which was most adapted for the purpose—to the fur trade; but the southern portion, which offered great facilities for colonization, ought no longer to be left waste for the purpose of stimulating the fur trade. The first object which the Government ought to have before them was as soon as possible to provide some provisional means by which persons might be authorized to dispense in a general way a rough sort of justice, or the power to decide cases of dispute both among the white settlers themselves and between the white men and the Indians; while all grave and serious offences might be sent to be tried at one or other of the neighbouring colonies—British Columbia on the Red River Settlement. Such a mode of administering justice ought to be sufficiently simple and elastic as to be capable of being adapt-
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  ed to all the circumstances of the territory. It would not be necessary to have a large staff of magistrates for the purpose, but he would place them in much the same position that was occupied by the British vice consuls in the East. If they were at first well selected he was sure they would exercise great influence over the natives. There was one point more to which he wished to call the attention of the noble Duke. It was said that the country was impracticable for colonization. Now, he had already admitted that a considerable portion of the territory was so. But in the southern portion there were considerable tracts of good land. A Committee of the House of Commons had lately sat on this question, before whom witnesses were examined, who reported most favourably from personal experience of the capabilities of the country. They described it as abounding in wood and water. About two years ago an expedition started through the country, and they described the soil from the Red River Settlement to the base of the Rocky Mountains, and their testimony was to the same effect. This was the country where enormous herds of buffaloes were to be found, which, of course, argued something for the goodness of the pasture. He might add that the very same argument was used some years ago against the colonization of British Columbia, yet no one now denied that that country had in it all the elements of prosperity. It was true that gold had been the effectual means by which a population had been drawn to British Columbia and other new countries; but wherever nature afforded a fair prospect of reward to encourage the energy of man, there colonization might be expected to advance, if it were not precluded by impolitic restrictions. What he wished to impress upon the Government was, first of all, the necessity of establishing good communications between Canada and British Columbia; secondly, the formation of colonies—he did not care how small they were—which would indicate our title to the undivided sovereignty of the territory on the northern side of the boundary line; and, in the meantime, the establishment of a provisional system of government, and the appointment, as soon as possible, of magistrates, who might exercise more or less control and administer justice; above all, he would impress upon the Government that the privileges of a trading company ought not to he allowed to stand in the way of Imperial colonization. It was most

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  important that no time should be lost in carrying these objects into effect, and he hoped that the noble Duke opposite would be in a position to state that steps would be taken immediately to do so.
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, that the noble Lord had made so long and interesting a tour in North America, and travelled so far beyond the limits of the Question of which he had given notice that he was afraid that he might forget to answer all the points in detail. He recognized to its full extent the importance of this question, affecting the relationships of the Hudson's Bay Company with that immense tract of territory lying between the boundaries of Upper Canada on one side, and the higher portion of the Pacific Ocean on the other. He was not sure that, having so recently assumed the seals of the Colonial Office, he should, under ordinary circumstances, have been prepared to answer the question; but having paid a great deal of attention to the subject for some years, he could venture to do so without any fear of doing injustice either to the Hudson's Bay Company or the other important interests involved, inasmuch as twelve years since, as a private Member of the House of Commons, he brought the whole question of the relations of the Hudson's Bay Company with this territory before that House. The noble Earl, in the latter part of his observations, had travelled a good deal beyond the limits of what was termed the licence territory, and had encroached upon that portion of the country in which the Hudson's Bay Company exercised proprietary rights, and which was known as the charter district, from being held under a charter of Charles II. He had also touched upon negotiations which were still pending with the Hudson's Bay Company with respect to that charter, and therefore the noble Earl must excuse him if he did not follow him in detail upon that portion of the subject, and confined his observations to the licensed portion of the territory which lay between the Rocky Mountains and the ocean. The noble Earl asked whether the Government thought it was proper or not to advise Her Majesty to renew the licence of the Hudson's Bay Company, which, after having been in existence for forty two years, expired in May last. He so far differed with the noble Earl that he considered it was an extremely fortunate thing that the question had been left open, and that the Hudson's Bay Company did not ac-
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  cept either of the offers made by the right hon. Baronet, after full consideration of the question, and, no doubt, with the best intentions towards them, for the extension of the licence for one or two years. He rejoiced that those offers were rejected, not only as they affected the interests of the Company, but the interests of other parties; because he was thoroughly convinced that it was far better that the question should be settled at once than that it should be delayed two or three years more, when, in consequence of the extension of colonization, the discovery of gold in British Columbia, and other circumstances, the settlement of the rights of the Hudson's Bay Company might have become an exceedingly difficult and embarrassing question. he would state at once to the noble Earl that it was not the intention of the Government to recommend Her Majesty to sanction a renewal of the licence to the Hudson's Bay Company for any time whatever; and therefore all that remained was to make such provisions for the government of that territory as were rendered necessary by the extinction of the power of the Company. No doubt it was desirable, as the noble Earl had said, that some provisions should also be made for the regulation of trade and securing the relation between the white settlers and the Indians, and for that purpose legislation would be necessary, but that legislation need not be of a very complicated character. Power would have to be taken to provide a magistracy for the settlement of disputes and the administratration of justice in all simple and ordinary cases, and in the course of a few days, the Government intended to introduce, either in their Lordships' House or the House of Commons, a measure authorizing the appointment of such magistrates. It would not be necessary in the first instance to go to any great expense in the matter by sending out magistrates from England; all that was required would be to select the most respectable and competent persons in the district, granting them power to deal summarily with small cases, but providing that in all cases of an aggravated description, the question of the amount of punishment should be awarded by a superior court; and therefore power would be given to remit such cases either to Canada or to British Columbia. Her Majesty's Government would also have to advise Her Majesty to lay down regulations of trade with the Indians, in order to prevent those excesses

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  which unscrupulous traders would practise on the unhappy natives when all those restrictions were removed which were imposed by the Hudson's Bay Company, and the exclusive licences were done away with. He thought he had now answered succinctly all the questions of the noble Earl. But it appeared to him, that the main point to which the speech of the noble Earl was directed was the necessity of encouraging emigration as much as possible, in order to colonize the more southern portion of the late Hudson's Bay Company's licensed territory, and he also referred to that portion of the country on this side of the Rocky Mountains. Now he (the Duke of Newcastle) did not think it necessary that the Colonial Office should take any decided steps in the promotion of colonization. Of course it was their duty to give every facility to emigration, and remove all impediments in its way. At the same time, he thoroughly concurred with the noble Earl that at some future time this question might become one of great importance. Another point raised by the noble Earl was the necessity of some regular communication between the boundaries of Canada on one side, and the boundary of Vancouver's Island on the other, and he stated that a representation was made to the late Government to induce them to assist in establishing some such line of communication. He was aware that some scheme had been proposed for the construction of a railroad, and he was not one of those who looked upon it as visionary; but, on the contrary, anticipated that the day would come when railroad communication would be made the whole distance. The Government would be anxious to give every proper encouragement to any scheme proposed either by the proposed Company or any other, but they did not contemplate at present the extension of communications by means of subsidies, and if this question involved a demand for a very large subsidy it would be highly objectionable. At the same time he fully admitted the great national importance of a communication across the continent, and such a scheme might depend upon having the warm support of the Government.

ARMAMENT OF MERCHANT STEAM-VESSELS.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF AIRLIErose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they had taken into consideration the Expediency of
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entering into Arrangements with Persons or Companies owning Steam Vessels other than those which carry the Mails, for the purpose of rendering such steam vessels capable of carrying Armaments of heavy guns, if required? He said that it was well known that steamers which received Government subsidies to carry mails were under engagement the they should be so constructed as to be able to carry guns in case of necessity, and should be placed at the service of the Government for warlike purposes if required. But there was a very prevalent impression that the contract that these steam vessels should be so constructed as to be capable of being turned into armed vessels had been very imperfectly kept, and that in fact they were not capable of carrying any armament. If this were the case, it was time that the public should know the real fact, and that the contracts should be more rigorously enforced. But as the principle had been admitted that certain steamers—commercial steamers—should be so fitted as to be able to carry heavy guns, why should not the same arrangement be applied to other steam vessels as well as those which carried mails? The steamers which carried mails had a Government agent on board, but he did not know if it was his duty to see if the vessel was seaworthy; but under the Passengers' Act the Government had the power of ascertaining whether any steamer which carried passengers was seaworthy. The service of largo steamers carrying mails was of great importance to the public; it was important that the mails should be regularly transmitted, and the service liable to no interruption. A strong case, therefore, ought to be made out before the Government should take these vessels for warlike purposes. There had been lately published a pamphlet by a gentleman whose opinion was of great weight on all matters relating to steam navigation—Mr. Laird. That gentleman said that many steam vessels employed in the coasting trade of a smaller description might be used for warlike purposes, and be useful in defending the coast and the mouths of great rivers like the Mersey, which were now unprotected. Mr. Laird had made an estimate of the cost of fitting these vessels for warlike purposes. His scheme was that the vessels should be made so strong as to be capable of mounting heavy guns, and he proposed to fit out 200 of these vessels so as to serve as gunboats. Mr. Laird put the cost of building

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and fitting 200 gunboats at £1,900,000, and the annual charge for keeping them up he put at 10 per cent of the cost, or £190,000. The cost of fitting vessels already in existence as gunboats would, he calculated, be £200 each, or £40,000; and the annual charge for them at £100 each, or £20,000. The difference between the expense of regular gunboats and the fitting of the proposed vessels for the purpose of converting them into gunboats was, that the former would cost exactly eleven times as much as the latter. Mr. Laird, however, admitted that he did not expect that the vessels so fitted would be quite so well adapted as regularly built gunboats for warlike purposes. These vessels besides would be quite as quickly made available for service as the gunboats laid up in ordinary, especially considering the way in which those vessels had been treated. It was not for him to say whether Mr. Laird's scheme was a feasible one, and if it was carried out, in what manner it was to be carried out. Vessels of that description ought certainly to be manned in such a manner as not to interfere with the manning of the regular navy. Men might be got for that service beyond the age when they would be received into the navy for continual service. It was quite certain it was not possible to construct fortifications sufficient for the defence of the whole of our coasts, and if we could we should not be able to man them; while any fortifications, if they were so situated as not to be efficient, had better not be erected at all. Some such scheme as this was therefore necessary, but it was not necessary to go to any great expense at first, but to try it on a small scale in the first instance. He would not at that late hour enter, as he might have done earlier in the evening, into the general subject of our national defences, but he would content himself with putting the question of which he had given notice.
THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, their Lordships were probably aware that for the last fifteen or sixteen years this subject had, at various times, been brought under the consideration of Parliament. For many years, indeed, it was part of the contract of those great companies which carried the West India and other mails that they should adapt their vessels for the purpose of carrying armaments. This went on for some time; until about 1852 a Committee, consisting of naval and military officers, was appointed to examine into
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this question. That Committee went into the subject with great care, and they surveyed almost all the steam vessels round the coast of England. The general result of their report was, that it was not expedient to attempt to render these vessels fit for war purposes; that, in fact, the attempt to make them fit for war purposes would render them very unfit for commercial vessels. In 1853 another inquiry was instituted, going still further into the matter: and that, probably, accounted for some little difference in the report. It was on that occasion admitted that by a considerable expenditure some of the steam vessels might be rendered fit to carry armaments, but not fit to cope with vessels of war; that they might be made fit to defend themselves, and thus be so much more fitted for the conveyance of troops; but even that the Commission, which looked into the matter with very great care, and which consisted entirely of professional men, did not recommend. At the same time they stated that some of these vessels, in the case of an emergency, might, at an expense of £3,000 or £4,000 each, be rendered available for defence. The proposal of Mr. Laird was much to this effect—that there were certain steam tugs and other small vessels, especially in the Mersey, which might be fitted up for the defence of that river. As soon as that question was brought before the Admiralty they sent down agents and had those vessels surveyed, that they might ascertain how far it was possible that some of them might be used for that purpose. He did not anticipate that very much would result from this inquiry; but at the same time it was desirable that they should know how far these vessels might be rendered fit for the defence of the river. He did not think that anybody now was of opinion that our large steamers which went round the coast or to our colonies could be rendered fit for war; and he believed that any attempt to make them so would only be throwing the money away. But there was no doubt that from the great resources of these Companies, they could, on any pressing emergency, rapidly turn out vessels which would be available for war, and they had the means of putting on board engines that would produce in a short time a very considerable steam navy. The late Government had tried this to some extent by making arrangements to build a certain number of corvettes by contract, a species of vessel which the commercial yards were

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peculiarly qualified to deal with, and if any sudden emergency should arise he should be inclined to deal with the matter in the same spirit. He would conclude by saying, in answer to the noble Earl, that the Government had considered the expediency of converting small steam tugs and other, vessels into ships of war, but they did not contemplate re-opening the question, which was thoroughly discussed in 1852 and 1853. The reports made on those occasions were printed, and could be referred to by anybody who wished to investigate the matter.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEthought that this matter was of some importance, as bearing upon the defence of our shores. He did not think, unless an expensive system of investigation were set on foot in reference to the construction of merchant vessels, which would cause great expense, and very much interfere with trade, there was any likelihood of merchant vessels being very well suited for war. He therefore very much concurred with the noble Duke that anything of the kind proposed would waste the public money without any adequate result. With our immense power of production he believed that we could produce such a quantity of ships as would meet any emergency. He did not think it was necessary to rely on our mercantile marine for the purposes of war.
House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.