Lords Sitting of 11 July 1859

MINUTES.
Took the Oath.—The Earl of Craven.
AFFAIRS OF ITALY.

  NOTICE OF MOTION.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYgave notice that on Thursday he would move for

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  the production of two circulars signed by Count Cavour, one on the 14th and the other on the 16th of June; and also Count Cavour's reply to his despatch of the 7th of June to Sir John Hudson. As these had already been published by the Sardinian Government, he presumed there would be no objection to the Motion on the part of Her Majesty's Government.

VOLUNTEER CORPS.—THE MILITIA.

  QUESTION.
  LORD VIVIANsaid, he had two Questions to ask of the Government respecting the Volunteer corps. The first was, whether it was the intention of the Government to pay the non-commissioned officers employed in drilling the volunteer corps throughout the country? he thought it was of importance to have sufficiently qualified persons to discharge the duty of instructing the volunteers, and that they should be entirely under the control of the Government. With that view they should be paid by the Government and not by the corps. The other question he had to ask was, whether it was intended to give a small remuneration to volunteers in artillery corps? He was afraid that unless Government held out some inducement— say a shilling a-day for a certain number of days' drill—they would not find men willing to volunteer for the artillery service. He wished also to make an observation with reference to the militia. The militia were out for drill twenty-one days in the year according to the present arrangement, they were then marched and counter-marched and went through all the ordinary evolutions; but for the last five years some of them had never fired once. He should like to hear from the Government an opinion as to whether some portion of the militia should not he furnished with the Enfield rifle.
  THE EARL OF WINCHELSEAwas understood to urge upon the Government the necessity of giving encouragement to these corps.
  THE EARL OF RIPONsaid, that there ought to be no rivalry between these two corps except that honourable one which he hoped would long continue to exist—which of them should be most efficient for the public service. One object, therefore of the Government was to prevent any clashing between the formation of volunteer corps and the recruiting for the militia, and this was one of the reasons why they declined to give any pecuniary assistance to those
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  corps. It was not the intention of the Government to assist volunteer corps by paying the musketry instructors; but sergeants of the staff of the disembodied militia would be allowed to act as drill instructors to such corps, who would be required to pay them at the rate of 1s. a day and to find them a lodging or billet. The noble Baron had said that if the sergeants were paid by the Government they would have more control over the arms and the drill. The object of the Government, however, was to leave to the volunteers as much of the management of their own affairs as was consistent with their character as military bodies, and with the maintenance of military discipline; and they thought that by requiring their submission to the annual inspection of a military officer they would have ample control over the drill. With regard to the arms a proper place of custody and a proper person to take care of them were to be provided by the volunteers themselves upon the recommendation, and subject to the approval, of the Lord Lieutenant, which he did not doubt would secure the choice of a proper person. He regretted that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State could not assent to the proposal of paying volunteer artillery regiments and providing them with uniforms, because if that were done a similar demand would speedily be made by the rifle corps, and it would be impossible, in principle, to refuse to accede to their claim. Artillery regiments would receive instruction and a supply of ammunition gratuitously, and he did not think it would be right to give them any further preference over their brethren of the rifle corps. Her Majesty's Government had, with the concurrence of the illustrious Duke the Commander-in-Chief, made arrangements for the instruction at Hythe of twenty-five adjutants and 100 sergeants of militia during the approaching autumn; and it was intended, as soon as those sergeants had received the proper instruction, to issue Enfield rifles to the staff of the disembodied militia. The issuing of that weapon to the whole of the militia force was a much larger question, and must take place gradually, according to the state of the public stores. On a previous occasion he had stated that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War was not prepared to sanction the formation of volunteer corps in larger bodies than companies. Since then, however, his right hon. Friend had received so many representations as to

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  the desirability of sanctioning the formation of battalions under certain circumstances, that he had decided that when several companies were formed in one town, or in a small district, he would sanction the appointment of a field-officer to command them, in order that they might have one' practice-ground and one arm-store. He was also willing to consider whether in rural districts a field-officer might not be appointed to exercise a general supervision over the scattered companies, to conduct their correspondence with the War Office, and to be their inspecting officer.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE and LORD VIVIANmade a few observations which were not heard.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, he had the honour to command an Artillery Regiment of Militia, and he was sorry to say that, although the complement of the regiment was 500 at present, although it had been embodied more than nine months, they had not been able to muster more than 250. He thought the reason of this was that the men were, in most instances, called upon to serve at such great distances from the towns and villages in which they lived. He thought that if the services of each regiment were confined to its own county, the force would be considerably strengthened. Another point to which he wished to call the attention of the Government was the fact, that no ammunition had been supplied to the regiment for several months; and without ammunition an Artillery regiment could have no practice in the duties which it was specially instituted to perform.
  THE EARL OF RIPONwished to state, in reply to the noble Marquess, that what he had intended to say was, that the sergeants of the disembodied militia would be trained at Hythe, and that they would, on their return, not only instruct their own regiments, but would be available for the instruction of the members of the rifle corps. But the Government did not mean that the volunteers should not, if they should think proper, obtain instruction from other quarters. He hoped the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Malmesbury) would excuse him if he did not then enter into a discussion of the points which the noble Earl had raised. He should take care, however, that the matters to which the noble Earl had referred should become the subject of due inquiry.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEasked the noble Earl to consider whether these
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  volunteer corps had not better be formed on a system of companies instead of regiments, so that if they were ever called out for actual service, a company might be attached to each line regiment as a light company.

JAMAICA IMMIGRATION ACT.

  PETITIONS.
  LORD BROUGHAM presented numerous Petitions from places in Jamaica, British Guiana, and England, praying for Inquiry into the System of Immigration. The petitioners complained of the] mode in which the coolies were engaged, the bad treatment to which they were subjected on their arrival, and the want of due precautions to send them home at the expiration of their engagement; and prayed for an immediate and searching inquiry into the subject. The petitioners objected to the system of immigration altogether, and stated that the planters had the means of obtaining a sufficient supply of labour without having recourse to immigration. This, however, was a difficult and doubtful question, which he would not take upon him to decide. The petitioners asked for a searching inquiry by means of a Committee of their Lordships' House. Perhaps some amelioration might be given to the condition of the planters, who had suffered, and were still suffering, by encouraging the introduction of machinery, by giving facilities for drainage, or by some grant which would enable them to carry on their cultivation in a more effectual manner than they were able to do at the present time.
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, that the whole question of the supply of labour to the sugar-growing colonies of England, and the immigration of coolies, was one of great importance, and was too complicated to allow their Lordships to enter into the discussion of it upon the presentation of a petition. His noble and learned Friend did not agree with the petitioners that the introduction of labour was not required, and that there was ample labour already in the colonies. [Lord BROUGHAM: I do not decide one way or the other.] Without entering into a long discussion, he might put it to his noble and learned Friend whether sufficient proof of the necessity of an introduction of labour was not given by the single fact, that in all cases in which additional labour had been introduced the colonies, who were the best judges of their own interests, had taxed themselves to obtain that supply of labour. His noble and

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  learned Friend had expressed a desire that a Committee should be appointed this Session to inquire into this most important subject. He (the Duke of Newcastle) should be most unwilling to resist the appointment of such a Committee if the Session were not so far advanced. He would put it to his noble and learned Friend whether any great object could be obtained by the appointment of a Committee this Session? No doubt, on a future occasion, the evidence of persons in the colonies, who were desirous to represent their own wishes and interests, might be obtained, and it would be unfair to the inhabitants of those colonies, who had suffered so much, and some of whom had had their estates ruined by the want of labour, to appoint a Committee this Session, and let its Report be circulated, before they could be heard in answer. He did not feel certain that the law was in fault in those cases of hardship to the immigrants which were stated to have occurred. He was rather inclined to believe that where a coolie had been unjustly dealt with, it was the fault of individuals and not of the law, which, if properly applied, would, perhaps, be found sufficient to prevent such cases. If, however, his noble and learned Friend thought that he could suggest an improvement of the law, he should be happy to support any measure he might introduce for its improvement.
  After a few words from the Karl of AIRLIE,
  LORD BROUGHAMremarked, that the taxation levied for immigration purposes did not fall upon the planters alone, but also upon the poor negroes; and they complained of having to pay for bringing in persons who were to compete with them in the labour market, and lower their rate of wages. He had no desire that the Committee should hear only one-sided evidence. If it were too late to appoint a Committee this Session, why should not a Commission be appointed?

  ENDOWED SCHOOLS (IRELAND).
  THE EARL OF CORKrose to ask, whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce a Bill this Session for the better management of endowed schools in Ireland. The noble Earl said, that that was a subject of considerable importance as the number of those schools amounted to not less than 2,300, and their endowments were considerable. Their Lordships knew that the Queen's Colleges in Ireland were instituted by the late Sir
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  Robert Peel in 1845, with a view to the education of all classes of the people, and each of these colleges received a grant from the Consolidated Fund of £7,000 a year. But their Lordships would be surprised to learn that though ample testimony was borne by the Commissioners who had been appointed to inquire into the subject, to the learning of the professors, and to the quality of the education they afforded; yet since the time that the college system had come into play in 1845, not more than 1686 students, matriculated and non-matriculated, had taken advantage of them; and what their Lordships would be equally concerned to hear, with the single exception of the year 1852, the number of matriculated students was less last year than in any year preceding. The Commissioners assigned various reasons for this want of success, and it was too wide a subject to be introduced in the form of a question. He would not, there-lore, allude to more than one cause in which all parties were agreed, and that was the inefficiency of the intermediate schools in Ireland. He was aware that great difficulties beset this question, but he was sure that delay would only increase them. Several important meetings had been held in the south of Ireland, and although there was a difference of opinion as to the appropriation and allotment of the funds, he believed that both Catholics and Protestants were agreed on this point, that Government ought to step in and take some means of rendering available to the mass of the community those vast educational resources which the inquiries of the Commissioners proved to exist. In conclusion, he had only to express a hope that Her Majesty's Government would, by taking up this question, prove that they were guided by those liberal principles which they professed in Opposition, and that they would thus endeavour to regain some degree of that confidence which he was afraid the late elections showed they had lost in Ireland. The late Government had acted very liberally with Ireland, and he believed they had prepared a Bill on this very question. He hoped the present Government would not be behind their predecessors, but that they would next year propose a satisfactory settlement of this question. His question was, whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce a Bill this Session for the better Management of the Funds of Endowed Schools in Ireland?
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREwished, before the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) replied, to make an observation or two upon the subject. The noble Lord who had just sat down was not quite correct in stating that the late Government had prepared a Bill upon this subject, though it was certainly true that they had given much attention to the subject, and the outlines of a measure were prepared; but the pressure of other business prevented its being properly matured. His noble Friend had stated that the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the Queen's Colleges in Ireland had reported that those colleges failed to command the confidence and support of the middle classes of Ireland, and they attributed part of that failure to the want of proper intermediate schools. He was not disposed to deny that; he quite agreed with his noble Friend that there was a want of those schools; but another and equally important cause of that failure was the continued and persistent hostility of the Roman Catholic clergy. They were determined that they never would support a system of mixed education, and all their efforts had been and would be directed to prevent the middle classes from making use of these colleges in the form in which they at present existed. He agreed with his noble Friend that something should be done for the regulation of those schools, for whose support large sums of money had been set apart from time to time, and lands devised for their use, while the amount of work got out of them was miserably small. But before anything was done by Parliament there was a preliminary question for the Government to settle, and till it was settled it was impossible that any measure could be satisfactorily introduced. The Endowed School Commissioners who made the Report of last year consisted of five persons, of whom the Marquess of Kildare, Dr. Trench, and Dr. Hamilton, were supposed to represent the united or neutral, or as it was sometimes called, the non-exclusive system of education; Mr. Stephens represented the feelings of the Established Church, and Mr. Hughes, who was then Solicitor General for Ireland, represented the opinions and feelings of the Roman Catholics. Now, it was extraordinary to remark that those three gentlemen who represented the non-exclusive system reported strongly in favour of taking all the Endowed Schools for which the least colour of an allegation could be set up that they could
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  be consistently applied to the non-exclusive system and putting them under a system of rules and regulations with respect to religious teaching similar to those of the Irish National Board. On the other hand, the gentleman who represented what may be considered as the feelings of the Established Church, in a separate Report which he made, and with arguments which to him (the Earl of Donoughmore) appeared unanswerable, objected entirely to this course, and argued that the funds for those schools had been bequeathed for Protestant purposes, and that they could not, without a gross injustice, be applied either to Roman Catholic or to a neutral system of education. But what was the statement of the Roman Catholic representative, Mr. Hughes? Passing over altogether the question whether those endowments could be equitably taken, he said that whether they were taken by the Government or not did not matter; that the Roman Catholics would not accept of them; that they would not accept of a neutral system of education; that they were determined to have a system of education separate from Protestants, and that Catholics should be educated by Catholics. What the occasion really called for was that the question should be tried at law, to whom those endowments belonged. Take the diocesan schools, for instance—could they be equitably applied to such purposes as were pointed at by the majority of the Commissioners? Or was it consistent with the intentions of the Sovereign and Parliament to apply that principle to those schools which were raised under the authority of an Act passed in the reign of James I? he thanked their Lordships for having listened to these remarks, which he thought it right to add to the observations of his noble Friend, who, he was afraid, had not sufficiently considered the magnitude of the task he laid upon the Government.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he was much obliged to his noble Friend opposite for the observations he had made, pointing out the difficulties which attended the subject. The noble Lord had also pointed out the mistaken statement of the noble Earl (the Earl of Cork) that the late Government had prepared a Bill on the subject; and he thought his noble Friend would hardly expect any other answer than that he was about to give—that it was not the intention of the present Government to introduce any Bill this Session. At the same time he fully admitted the importance of the

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  question and the obligation of the Government to consider what steps they could best take on this question.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow half-past Ten o'clock.