Lords Sitting of 1 July 1859

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament.—The Earl of Devon—after the Death of his Father.
Took the Oath.—Several Lords.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Attornies and Solicitors; Church Rates.

APPOINTMENT OF MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN.—OBSERVATIONS.
LORD LYNDHURST: My Lords, I wish to call your Lordships' attention to a recent appointment to the judicial bench—the appointment of Mr. Blackburn to a puisne judgeship in the Court of Queen's Bench. I have been asked who is Mr. Blackburn? and a journal which takes us all to task by turns has asked somewhat indignantly, "Who is Mr. Blackburn? Who is Mr. Blackburn?" I take leave to answer that he is a very learned person, a very sound lawyer, an admirable arguer of a law case, and from his general acquirements eminently fitted for a seat on the bench. These appointments are exclusively in the hands of the Lord Chancellor; he is solely responsible for them; but of this I am sure, that if the distinguished Judge who now presides in the Queen's Bench—a Judge remarkable for his knowledge of law, and for the admirable manner in which he applies it—had been consulted, he would have cordially concurred in the judgment of my noble and learned Friend on the woolsack. I owe this explanation to the learned Judge, Mr. Justice Blackburn—and I owe

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it also to my noble and learned Friend, though I know he can always take good care of himself. I am one of those who think it of great importance that the public should not entertain any doubt or any jealousy with respect to appointments to the judicial bench. I hope my noble and learned Friend will allow me to take this opportunity of congratulating him on his elevation—on his having attained everything that he has ever looked forward to. We may say of him in the words of the poet:—
" Thou hast it now, King, Cawdor, Glamis, all, As the weird sisters promised."
Without being a countryman of my noble and learned Friend, I may take credit to myself for a species of foresight, having on a former occasion predicted the advancement of my noble and learned Friend.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I should not have taken any notice of this question, "Who is Mr. Blackburn?" had not my noble and learned Friend thought fit to put the question and to answer it. I know nothing of Mr. Blackburn, except what I knew from having seen him practice in the Court over which I presided. I have no private intimacy, and I declare, on my word of he hour, I don't know of what side he is in politics. But I have known him as a sound, good, and able lawyer; one of the ablest in Westminster Hall. My only object was to appoint the person who I thought would best discharge the duties of a Judge in the Court of Queen's Bench. That was my sole object, and I have no reason to believe that it has not been attained. It is said that Mr. Blackburn had not a silk gown, but in former times that was never held to be test of fitness for the judicial bench. Lord Tenterden never had a silk gown, and a noble and learned Friend of mine, who was one of the most distinguished Judges that ever presided in Westminster Hall, had not a silk gown. I am convinced that the more Mr. Justice Blackburn's qualities and abilities become known the more will his appointment be approved.
LORD WENSLEYDALEsaid, he had been much astonished at the remarks made in various quarters as to the conduct of his noble and learned Friend in the appointment of Mr. Blackburn. He believed that no abler man could have been selected for the appointment. He was very glad to hear his noble and learned Friend say that he had no acquaintance with Mr. Blackburn's politics. He thought that, however,
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the higher offices of State might be distributed on these considerations, it would be impolitic to make the appointments to the judicial bench dependent on any other ground than attainments in legal learning. He believed that the conduct of his noble and learned Friend was animated by a desire to appoint only the best man that could be found.
LORD CRANWORTHsaid, he did not know anything of the merits of Mr. Blackburn, but he rose to say that in making appointments to the judicial bench, the circumstance of the individual not having a silk gown was never taken into consideration at all. When he recommended Mr. Justice Willes that gentleman had not a silk gown, and he had never heard any objection made to his appointment on that account.

RED SEA AND INDIA TELEGRAPH COMPANY (No. 2) BILL.
On the Motion that this Bill be now read a third time.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYexpressed a hope that in future Her Majesty's Government would not enter into contract with any company except subject to the conditions that the contract should be laid before Parliament, and should not be binding until Parliament had approved it, and that such contract should be embodied in a Bill, which Bill should, so far at least as it affected the public interests, be treated as a public Bill.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the subject alluded to by his noble Friend was under the consideration of the Government.
THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he was glad to hear the statement of the noble Earl; but he hoped that the Government would not by any statement tie themselves down to a position that they would not under any circumstances give their countenance to schemes for the public benefit, or interfere without the sanction of Parliament, because in his opinion such a course would be both impracticable and injudicious.
Bill read 3a with the Amendment, and passed.

VOLUNTEER CORPS.

  QUESTION.
  LORD VIVIANrose, to ask the Undersecretary of State for War what were the intentions of Her Majesty's Government with respect to Volunteer Corps; whether they adopt the views of the late Adminis-

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  tration, or whether they are disposed to supply a sufficient quantity of arms for practice purposes? He ventured to take this the earliest opportunity of eliciting from the Under-Secretary for War some information with regard to the intention of the Government on a subject of great importance, and one which demanded immediate attention and decision. In the month of May last, two circulars were issued by the late Secretary for War with reference to the formation of rifle corps. Under the conditions of one of them, arms and accoutrements were not to be supplied to rifle corps without expense. He much regretted the mode in which the matter had been treated by the late Government. He felt that the conduct of the late Government showed that they were making a concession to a public feeling, at that time very strongly expressed, rather than exhibiting any wish for the formation of these corps. In fact, that circular, he believed, tended rather to thwart than to aid the efforts of those who wished to see such corps established. Being Lord Lieutenant of a sea-board county, bounded on the one side by the English on the other by the Bristol Channel, and which had Plymouth—rather a tempting bait to an invader—at its eastern extremity he felt it to be his duty to afford every encouragement to the formation of volunteer corps, and he addressed a letter to the late Secretary for War, suggesting that it was desirable that a certain supply of arms should be issued to the proposed corps for the purposes of practice. Unfortunately his suggestion was not attended to, although he represented that in his county a large and efficient force might with such aid from Government be raised. What he wished to ascertain was, whether the present Government was disposed to encourage volunteering in the country, and especially in the sea-board counties, by supplying arms to corps that might be formed. He ventured to hope that Her Majesty's present Government would give more encouragement than the last to the formation of these important means of national defence, not only by supplying them with a sufficient quantity of arms, but that they would appoint competent non-commissioned officers for instructing them in the use of arms, and drilling them.
  LORD AVELANDthought, that the claims of the Militia should be considered. He begged to ask the Under Secretary at War what steps had been taken, or were
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  proposed to be taken, to afford instruction in musketry practice, or the use of the rifle, to the Staff of the disembodied Militia, so that they might be competent to teach their men; and whether Enfield rifles had been issued to them, or to the regiments of Militia ordered for training? He found that a large proportion of the disembodied militia regiments still used the old arm, and that the officers were unable to give the men any instruction in others of a better description. He had brought this question before the Government for a year and a-half; but now that other noble Lords were mooting it, and as large bodies of men seemed anxious to come forward and join these volunteer corps, he thought it his duty to claim the attention of the Government and to express a hope that it would be given to this subject in regard to the militia, and to put in what he considered this prior claim for rifles, and instructions he w to use them.
  THE EARL OF RIPONsaid, he was grateful to his noble Friend (Lord Vivian) for having given him the opportunity which his question afforded of stating to their Lordships what were the intentions of Her Majesty's Government in reference to a subject which had excited great public interest, and which had received much attention from many of their Lordships. His noble Friend had reminded them, to a certain extent, of the position in which the question stood when the present Government entered upon office. As he had stated, early in the month of May last, the late Government gave their sanction to the desire expressed by the public for the formation of volunteer rifle corps in different parts of the country; and in the course of that month two circulars were issued from the War Office—one on the 12th, and the other on the 25th—the first of which, addressed to the Lords Lieutenant of counties, informed them that it was the intention of the Government to sanction the formation of those corps upon certain conditions. Those conditions were that the formation of the corps should be recommended by the Lord Lieutenant of the county; that it should be formed in accordance with the provisions of the Volunteer Act of 44th Geo. III.; that the members of the corps should take upon themselves all the expenses of the corps; and that the rules and regulations for the government of the corps should be submitted to the approval of the Secretary of State. Up to the present time only 12

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  companies had been formed under the circular so issued. The second circular contained able directions with regard to the management, discipline, and organization of these corps, but did not in any respect change the principles laid down in the first. When his right he n. Friend, the present Secretary for War entered office he found affairs in this condition. There was a large number of projects for the formation of rifle corps; but, as he had already stated, only twelve had actually presented themselves in an official shape. The Government readily acknowledged the public spirit and loyal feeling which had actuated so many of Her Majesty's subjects in coming forward to form these corps; and it was their full intention to carry out the views of the late Government in respect to the sanction and encouragement which should be given to them. When his right he n. Friend entered office the turning point seemed to have been readied with regard to this question, and upon the course which the movement might take in the next few months, or even a shorter period than that, appeared to depend whether these corps would be really military bodies in the proper sense of the word or be mere rifle clubs. The only advantage which could be derived for defensive purposes from institutions of the latter class was, that they might thereby obtain a considerable number of persons throughout the country who would be practised in shooting with the rifle; but in any other sense they would not be military bodies. Desiring to give encouragement to the feeling which had actuated so many persons in forming these corps, and at the same time wishing to ensure, as far as possible, that the utmost benefits should be derived from these voluntary organizations, the Secretary of State and the Government had determined to deviate from the course which had been followed by the late Administration in one or two points, one of them of special importance being that which his noble Friend had alluded to in the latter part of his question. Instead of declining to supply any arms whatever to these corps, and leaving them to be provided entirely at the expense of the members, the Government had determined to issue arms at the rate of twenty-five stand of rifles for every hundred men who might be enrolled, and to issue them upon certain conditions. These conditions were four in number and would be made necessary preliminaries to the sanc-
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  tion of any corps. In the first place, the Secretary of State would require to be satisfied that they were able to provide a safe and adequate range for rifle practice; an officer would be appointed to inspect the range proposed to be established, which must at least be 200 yards in length, and that officer must be satisfied that it was fitted for the purpose for which it was intended. The second condition was that the corps should provide a safe place for the custody of the arms entrusted to them, and also a competent person to take charge of them. The selection of that person, and the expenses necessary to be incurred for the purpose, would be left to themselves, subject to the sanction of the Lords-Lieutenant. In the third place, the Government would require that the rules and regulations for the government of the corps should be submitted to the Secretary of State, and be approved and sanctioned by him. And lastly, the corps would be subject to inspection by a proper military officer to be sent down for that purpose by the Government. When these conditions had been complied with and sanction given to the formation of the corps, rifles in the proportion he had mentioned would be issued for instruction and drill, and the Government would be prepared to arm the volunteers completely in the event of that of which he trusted there was no present danger, an invasion. In addition to this the Government had decided—still following in the steps of their predecessors in office—to allow the staff of the disembodied militia to be employed for the purpose of instructing the rifle corps in drill, for which the corps would be required to pay them a shilling a day, and to provide them with sufficient billet or lodging. And now, in reply to the question which had been put to him by the noble Baron (Lord Aveland), he believed he might say that it was in contemplation to provide means for instructing in musketry, at the Hythe School of Musketry, a certain number of adjutants and sergeants of the stuff of the disembodied militia. The matter was not yet finally settled, however, but was waiting the decision of His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief. He believed it was contemplated to afford means, in the course of the present summer, for the instruction of something like twenty-five adjutants and 100 sergeants of the disembodied militia, at Hythe; and, of course, such a measure as that would add greatly to the facilities for drill of either the militia or the volun-

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  teer rifle corps. The drill sergeants ought not to constitute a permanent charge to these corps, because, so far as the ordinary purposes of drill were concerned, they would, before long, be able to provide themselves with instructors from the members of their own body. But to secure to them still more advantage in respect to musketry instruction His Royal Highness had decided that a modified course of musketry instruction at Hythe should be open to the officers and members of the volunteer corps, to commence at the end of July and to continue fourteen days; the expense, of course, being borne by the officers themselves. His (the Earl of Ripon's) remarks up to this point had applied chiefly to rifle volunteers; but Her Majesty's Government entertained an especially strong sense of the utility of forming artillery corps, and trusted that the Lords-Lieutenants of maritime counties would use their best endeavours to promote in their districts the establishment of corps of that kind. In accordance with the decision of the late Government, guns, ammunition, and instruction would be supplied to such corps; the guns and ammunition to be under the charge of the Royal Artillery. In the event of invasion those artillery corps would prove most valuable, by setting free the Royal Artillery for service in the field. His right he n. Friend the Secretary of State thought that it was necessary to proceed in regard to these matters somewhat cautiously. The movement was as yet in its infancy, and it was undesirable to come to any positive decision until they could see what course its development would be likely to take. Consequently, it was only contemplated at present that the organization should be by companies; and that any other arrangement should be left for consideration hereafter—but a circular would be issued to the Lords-Lieutenants of counties as soon as possible, containing the conditions upon which these corps were to be formed. Her Majesty's Government, he might repeat, were fully sensible of the public spirit which had animated those who had come forward to organize these corps, they believed that corps of this description would be very valuable for defensive purposes and it was the object of his right he n. Friend to make them as efficient as possible consistently with the principles that must govern corps of volunteers. With regard to the second question of the noble Lord (Lord Aveland) as to the supply of Enfield rifles to the militia, he believed
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  that assistance of that kind might be given to the staff of the disembodied militia as soon as there were persons upon that staff who had been at Hythe, and were capable of instructing the rest of the staff in the use of those rifles. Indeed, as to the disembodied militia generally, it was naturally the wish of the Government to supply them with the rifles; but that must be a gradual process, and dependant upon other demands for the supply of rifles; he was therefore unable to inform the noble Lord when it was likely that the views of the Government in that respect would be completely carried into effect.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, there was one point in the observations which had fallen from the noble Earl who had just spoken to which he wished briefly to advert. The first condition which he understood was laid down by the Government before they would consent to supply volunteer corps with arms was that they should procure a space of ground for practice to the extent of 300 yards free from all danger, and that their proceedings should take place under the inspection of a public officer. Now, that appeared to be a very proper course to take; but he must remind his noble Friend that all these new rifle corps must, in point of fact, be Bet on foot in towns, inasmuch as it would be found quite impossible to establish them in the country districts, where the population was so widely distributed. Now, that being so, their Lordships must bear in mind that there were in the vicinity of towns so many footpaths that, unless Parliament interposed, it would be impossible to find a sufficient length of ground for the necessary practice of the various corps. The Legislature might, he thought, so far interfere as to give authority to the commanding officer, by public notice, and the posting of sentries, to cause the footpaths to be stopped up during the hours of practice; otherwise no efficient training in the use of the rifle could be carried on.
  THE EARL OF RIPONsaid that, although their Lordships might be willing to pass an Act of Parliament for the purpose to which the noble Earl referred, yet it would, he feared, be extremely difficult to procure the assent of the House of Commons to such a measure.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, he understood that 25 per cent. of the rifles necessary for the practice of volunteer corps were to be supplied to them by the

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  Government. He should like to know whether that 25 per cent. was to be regarded as a loan for practice only, or whether each of the 100 men who composed a company were to provide their own rifles.
  LORD VIVIANsaid, the noble Earl must bear in mind that the corps in question were merely volunteer corps, and that the 25 per cent of rifles would be supplied to them merely for the purposes of practice.
  LORD HOWDENsaid, there was one word—the word "invasion"—which had occurred in the speech of his noble Friend the Under Secretary for War, and to which he wished to advert, because he believed it to be a word to which the same idea did not attach on this as upon the other side of the Channel. Entirely different opinions were entertained here from those which prevailed in Prance as to the motives by which an invasion of this country might be prompted, and the results to which it might lead. The English were a cold-blooded, calculating people, who sought to know the value of a thing in coming to a decision with respect to it. They could not understand the meaning of such a wanton effusion of blood and treasure as would be occasioned by any attempt on the part of France to invade our shores, unless they coupled with the idea of the will to do so the expectation on the part of Frenchmen to succeed in conquering England. Now, that was a very logical view to take of the subject, but it was not French. He did not believe that the idea of conquering this country had ever entered into the head of any sane Frenchman, any more than any sane Englishman had ever entertained the notion that we should allow ourselves to be conquered by Franco. He felt assured that no Frenchman had ever dreamt of taking possession of this island; but he felt almost equally certain that every Frenchman living dreamt both by day and night of humiliating this country, and robbing her of the position which she alone maintained among the nations of Europe—that of possessing an inviolate soil. Thousands of persons in England scouted the very thought of an invasion, They asked, "What is the use of it?" They said, "It could have no permanent result." The people of France were aware that it could not; but then they did not adopt the same mode of reasoning on the subject. A forlorn hope might enter some miserable village inhabited by six fishermen and a ploughboy, a bulletin
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  might be signed on British soil, proclaiming the glorious triumph of French arms; the French eagles might stream from every steeple from Acton to Ealing and from Ealing to Harrow; the very prospect was enough to throw every Frenchman into a transport of joy, and that, too, although he might be perfectly aware that not a single one of his countrymen would return he me to tell the tale. Such a state of feeling was incomprehensible to a cold, calculating Englishman. He should, however implore their Lordships not to indulge in the cut-and-dry supposition that an invasion of our shores was a thing impossible, or to measure the probability of it by mere politico-economical considerations. It must not be imagined that because there were so many material and industrial interests involved in the question it ought not to be viewed in a serious light. He had heard similar arguments urged in 1830 against a change of dynasty, and in 1848 against the possibility of a revolution breaking out in France; yet their Lordships knew what had taken place on both these occasions—he hoped it would not prove the same on the third occasion. He should, above all things, beseech their Lordships not to have recourse to sentimentalities. He knew well what the Imperialists thought of the English alliance. They said nothing against it. They seemed to look upon it as a very fine idea, a very excellent thing in its way. They spoke of it as the French philosophers of the Encyclopédie had spoken of the Christian religion at the end of the last century. They called it a beautiful invention, but one that had performed its task. They said, "son temps est fait." He did not make these statements lightly or for the mere pleasure of doing so. He resided in France, and his social relations were chiefly in that country. Nothing, therefore, could be a greater misfortune to him than that such an event as that to which he alluded should take place. But breathing the atmosphere by which he was surrounded in France, he could not help hearing and seeing that the great motive which had urged the Emperor Napoleon to wage war against Austria was to make a general, though a tacit appeal to all the nations of Europe, except that of which he was the head, to unsettle themselves. The appeal was made to Poland, to Hungary, perhaps to Ireland—in a word, to every country—for the purpose, as it were, of producing a general dislocation of the affairs of the world; with what object he

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  could not say, inasmuch as he could not presume to fathom the depths of the mind of him who now acted a chief part on the Continent of Europe. He should not venture to divine what might he the next move of His Imperial Majesty the Emperor of the French on the political chess-board. He could not prophesy whether he would checkmate the world or he checkmated himself. But, be that as it might, he was anxious that the Government of England, be it Whig, Radical, or Conservative, should be as well aware as he was that the only way to unite together all parties in France—Republicans, Imperialists, Orleanists and Legitimists—would be to enter into a war with this country. Such a war was the only one which would ever be universally popular in France, and, however reckless the attempt to invade England might be—however devoid of all rational hope of success—there was not a single widow in France who would not give her last son, or a single beggar who would not give his last penny, to carry out such a project.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEasked whether it was the intention of the Government to arm completely the volunteer corps as soon as that object could be effected.
  EARL GRANVILLEthought his noble Friend had sufficiently explained that twenty-five rifles were to be supplied to every hundred men. It was thought that the various corps would thus have ample means of instruction in firing these weapons. Some of the members would, no doubt, supply themselves at their own cost with rifles like those of the Government, so as to be able to use the same ammunition; and, in case of invasion, the whole corps would, of course, be placed in possession of these weapons.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, his objection to this plan was that by supplying arms to the rifle corps they would be likely to enlist a class of men whom it was the special object of the late Government to avoid enlisting—namely, those who would otherwise join the army or the militia. In proposing to furnish rifles to this extent he hoped the Government had informed themselves as to the actual supply of these arms; for the promise seemed to him a very large one.
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEadmitted that if, in dealing with these volunteer corps they reduced the number of recruits for the army or militia, they would be do-
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  ing great injury indeed. But would that be the case if arms were granted, as proposed, for purposes of practice? Their Lordships must recollect he w very heavy would still be the expense to Members of rifle corps. The Government did not intend to furnish them with accoutrements or with a practice ground; neither were the members to receive any pay; and he was certain that these were not terms likely to be accepted by men who would join the army or militia. It was the opinion of the Government that though it would not be right to throw upon the country any greater expense for the issue of arms than was now proposed, it was not desirable to render these corps too select or to prevent such persons from joining them as would be willing to do so on receiving this very moderate assistance. They thought the corps should be composed of all classes. Another object was attained by the proposed issue, for the Government would thereby acquire a right to insist on the safe custody of these rifles, besides insuring that they should always be found efficient when wanted, and not in such a state as a delicate weapon of the kind would probably fall into if left to individual care and custody. With regard to the other point raised by the noble Earl, he could only say that in Nottingham his first step had been to consult the officer commanding the militia in that county, as to he w far the formation of rifle corps would be likely to impede the recruiting for the militia, and that officer said he was convinced that the enlistment of men for the line and the militia would not be interfered with by the encouragement of those volunteer bodies.
  THE EARL OF DERBYagreed with the noble Duke in thinking that the proposed corps would not be likely to interfere with the enlistment for either the line or the militia, because the men who joined the rifle corps would belong to an altogether superior class. He did not, therefore, object to the course which the Government intended to take in thus going somewhat beyond the scheme of the late Ministry, provided they had satisfied themselves that they would not be unduly encroaching upon the supply of rifles for the regular service, in fulfilling the obligations they had taken upon themselves. The supply of Enfield rifles for the use of the army, whether by the efforts of the trade or of the Government factory, appeared to the late Government insufficient to warrant them in

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  otherwise disposing of any considerable proportion of these arms, and upon those grounds it was that they had not thought it expedient to provide these corps with rifles. If the present Government had satisfied themselves that there was an abundance of rifles, and if they thought they could without inconvenience meet the demands of the volunteer corps, he had not a word to say against such an arrangement; but the late Government had come to a different conclusion.
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEreplied that the question mooted by the noble Earl had been carefully considered by the Secretary for War, who had satisfied himself that from the number of rifles now in store, and coming in weekly, ample means would be provided for meeting the wants of the volunteer corps.
  THE EARL OF SANDWICHsuggested that the disembodied officers of militia should be supplied with the Enfield rifle, so as to he the better qualified to instruct the volunteer corps.
  THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYasked whether the Government intended to embody the Irish militia, and said that attention ought to be directed to the use of the arms of those regiments, which were usually found in the very worst condition.
  In reply to the EARL OF AIRLIE,
  THE EARL OF RIPONsaid, he thought he had stated that the Government did not intended to supply these corps with any musketry instruction at the public expense; but the illustrious Duke the Commander-in-Chief had made arrangements which would enable the volunteer officers, if they thought fit, to go through a modified course of instruction at Hythe. With regard to the embodiment of Irish militia, that was a question which he was not prepared to answer without notice.

THE NAVY ESTIMATES.

  QUESTION.
  LORD BROUGHAM: After the lamentable accounts which have reached us during the last two days—lamentable as every one must feel them, whatever be his opinions or his wishes respecting the war, I rise to discharge a duty to this House, to the country, and to humanity. Closing my ears to the shouts of triumph raised by one party, to the murmurs of others complaining that such enormous carnage should have had no result, and to the cries of the defeated, disappointed it is said,
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  perhaps untruly, in their hopes of abating the nuisance of a free Government in their neighbourhood—from these I turn aside, that I may give utterance to the thoughts which should be uppermost in all men's minds towards what party so ever in the contest they may lean. A slaughter has been committed unexampled in the history of our race; and at the time I speak it has not ceased The British Senate has been called the refuge of oppressed nations; whether it deserves that title or not, I know that it is the refuge of suppressed feelings; of right feeling and sound principles; the lacerated feelings of humanity, and the outraged sense of justice. The heartfelt sorrow for what has befallen so large a portion of our fellow creatures—the heavy censures—the deep indignation roused against the perpetrators of that enormous slaughter, can find no vent elsewhere; stifled, or altogether suppressed in some countries by the arbitrary commands of despotic power—drowned in others by the clamour of popular violence. But here those natural feelings are the cherished growth of the soil; and in this high court of justice they charge by a name technically familiar to us, which I abstain from using, the wilful authors of the war, be they who they may, by whatever motives actuated, whether stimulated by the thirst of vain glory, or moved by the cold calculations of selfish interest, or possessed with the jealousy of free institutions, or inflamed with the lust of conquest—whoever they be, and by whatever passions incited, the wilful authors of the most unprovoked and indefensible war ever waged, and their guilty accomplices, have dyed the plains of Italy and made her rivers flow with the blood of innocent men—innocent because the dupes of their arts or compelled as unwilling instruments in their hands. But let us be just to France. Her ruler has disclaimed for her all desire of conquest, or aggrandizement; and so far I verily believe that the French people will be no gainers in any manner of way. They will bear the burthen, will pay the cost without receiving the profit. The crop is raised with their blood, but they will not reap the harvest. Then who is to gain by the horrible carnage of which the Lombard plains are now the scene? Is it the Italian people? No one more earnestly desires than myself to see the oppression cease under which they have so long suffered. In every quarter from north to south that people has been grievously misruled; and no one would rejoice

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  more at their freeing themselves from the Austrian yoke and their other burthens. But when I contemplate the policy which seems now to prevail, I am thrown back in my recollection to the evil times which some of your Lordships, with myself, are old enough to remember, and to remember with he rror—I mean the wholesale dealing in revolt and insurrection of the National Convention. I speak of their celebrated decree of the 19th of November, 1792, which, if it did not begin, extended the war over Europe, and continued it for above twenty years—the decree holding out the hand of fellowship to whatever people should revolt against their rulers, and not only giving them countenance, but offering the assistance of their armies, and instructed their generals wherever an insurrection had happened to protect all engaged in it from the punishment which they had incurred. At the present clay the course is not by decrees, but by acts and deeds, showing the insurgents that they may expect help; and the traffic in revolt is not as in 1792, carried on wholesale but by retail. One day it is the north of Italy against Austria; another it is the Duchies against their rulers; a third day it is Hungary against Austria; a fourth, it is the States of the Church and the Legations against the Pope. All are parts of a system called that of Nationalities in the north of Italy, and everywhere else. It is singular, too, he w in adopting the system of 1792 and 1793, they have also adopted the language of those dismal times. I speak not of France, but one of her allies, an ally in whose dominions every effort was made, every mode resorted to for rousing a warlike spirit and breaking the peace. I have seen with my own eyes the topics used by the Government press in that country, and the excitements to war in daily effusions of the war party,—that is the Ministerial party. The remedies were of various kinds and applied in different ways. But the first I chiefly remember, and remember having seen with no little horror, was this,—"War, it is true, may be an evil; but there are many evils in this world of ours; ills there must be and wars;" and it was added, "National independence, the liberation of oppressed peoples, is a tree that requires a sufficient manuring of human corpses" (un engrais suffisant de cadavres humains). Now, in the days of the Committee of Public Safety, St. Just, the execrable accomplice of Robespierre, employed the same expressions, "Liberty," he
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  said, "must be founded upon mountains of human corpses" (monceaux de cadavres). I had fondly hoped that the last war had been waged in the name of liberty, but unhappily we have lived to see in that desecrated name massacres so horrible in their extent, and attended with such unheard-of cruelty, that the mind recoils from the contemplation. The war, it may be said, has gone too far to be stopped; but I trust that England will interfere at the very earliest moment for the restoration of peace, and that, too, without ever asking who was to blame. Let it be the rule to make bygones, bygones; let us say both parties are equally to blame, or all alike blameless. It is to be hoped that the losing party may perceive that by persisting in an unequal contest she will only lose the more. It is greatly to be dreaded that Germany may be induced to take part in the struggle. There can be no doubt there exists already too much disposition to break the peace in that quarter; and if the sword were once drawn there, no man can tell to what extent the war may go, or when it may end. There is no actual attack threatened against Germany; the danger is only that of a possibility; and it is therefore earnestly to be desired that every effort may be made to keep Prussia from engaging in hostilities, and to prevent that greatest of all calamities, a general war. I have no fear of an invasion of this country, and I think my noble Friend opposite (Lord Howden) has taken a too gloomy view of the feelings of the French people on that subject. I firmly believe that all persons of respectability in France, all educated persons, all persons of property, they who represent public opinion, are he stile to the present war, and lament that it should have broken out. The multitude armed, and unarmed, may indeed have had their heads turned by temporary success, just as they would, on the other hand, be the first to be cast down by any reverse of fortune; but they are not those to whom we must look for sound public opinion. The whole country was averse to this war until it was actually begun, and then the reprobation of it diminished with the excitement of the occurring events. But it is still strongly disliked by the bulk of the community. That dislike is nothing compared to what would be felt and loudly expressed by all classes were the Government to break with this country. I firmly believe that no act of the Government could excite greater indignation than a

  525
  quarrel with England. But is that any reason why we should not be prepared? Quite the contrary. We say to France, "We don't distrust you, we don't believe that you will do us any wrong; we rely on your professions and your promises. Nevertheless, common prudence requires that we should guard against every possibility, and possible danger may arise from a change in your Government; for no one can tell what might in that event be the disposition of your military classes." Let us therefore be prepared by land and by sea. Above all, lot us be prepared by sea. I hope and trust that I shall have a satisfactory answer to my question from the noble Duke opposite, and that it be authoritatively declared that there is no foundation whatever for the report as to the Navy Estimates being lowered. Instead of the preparations of the late Government being lessened, I would rather that they might be extended, so as to render an attempt upon our shores, happen what may, absolutely impossible. There is the widest difference conceivable between a constitutional Government, with a free Parliament and a free press, and Governments such as those of the two allies, France and Russia, where every expression of public opinion is stifled. My belief is that had there been a free Government in France, this lamentable war in Italy would have been utterly impossible. It arose from there having been no legitimate vent for that public opinion which was at first quite unanimous against war, although when hostilities had been actually declared a certain change took place. Under those circumstances, and having regard to the naval force of France and Russia, it is our bounden duty to make it absolutely impossible that the channel should be commanded even by the united fleets of those two Powers.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSET(who was very indistinctly heard) said, he trusted that, in answering the question of the noble and learned Lord, he would excuse his not following him through the various topics touched upon in his speech. He would confine himself simply to giving the information which the noble and learned Lord seemed to require. In doing so he should lay before their Lordships such information as he possessed respecting the progress which had been made in the reconstruction of the navy; and here he felt that he had to represent the late Government rather than the present. He had seen with great surprise a statement in the
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  newspapers that he had commenced the duties of his office by reducing the Navy Estimates, and striking off a large number of men from the dockyards. But the fact was that he had not taken a single step in either of those directions. He would state to their Lordships what had really happened. On the 11th of April last the Board of Admiralty being very properly desirous of expediting the works in progress in the dockyards, ordered that the men should work extra hours. At a later period it was considered that further works wore necessary, and additional men were ordered to be taken on, and on the 5th of May it was ordered that more men should be employed upon the works in the dockyards. It was a perfectly right course on the part of the late Government to put on an additional force of men as soon as they saw it was necessary. In this respect, therefore, he (the Duke of Somerset) was quite ready to defend the course adopted by the late Government. A great deal had been said for many years past about the way in which the Navy Department had been administered. Now, it happened that when he was a Member of the House of Commons an inquiry was directed to be made into the Navy Estimates, and as Chairman of the Committee, he had before him all the leading persons who had been connected with the navy for a long time previous, and he had thus collected a great deal of information on the subject. It appeared that for thirty or forty years great economy was practised in the Navy Estimates, and very little expenditure was incurred. He now rejoiced that such economy had been practised, for had it not been so, the money would have been entirely wasted, the class of vessels built would have been entirely unsuited to the present exigencies, and if a number of vessels had been launched they would have been perfectly useless, and the country would now have to pay just as large a sum for the reconstruction of the navy. That was the course for a long period of time. Then came the period of steamships, but of steamships with paddles, when the Admiralty again set to work and produced a number of vessels of that class. But before many years had elapsed the screw-propeller was introduced, superseding the use of the paddle. If, therefore, they had gone on building steamers fitted with paddles, they would have been found unsuited to modern requirements. From a return which he and in his hand, it appeared that in the year 1847—the year

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  before the inquiry to which he had referred was made—there was not a single ship of the line with a screw. In January, 1853, which was the date of the next return, the Government had got as far as 17 vessels with screws. The next return was one of the 1st of January, 1859, when it appeared that we had 50 line-of-battle-ships with screws. Since this time the Government had gone to work with considerable industry, and whereas in January, 1859, the total number was 50 screw ships, on the 1st of July, 1859, the number was 57. Thus there had been a continual increase; and, meanwhile, the country had been saved the expenses of machinery, dockyards, and of executing the necessary works. The late Board of Admiralty had further resolved upon the construction of a vessel of 6,000 tons—whereas the largest vessels hitherto had not exceeded 4,000 tons in size—which was to be coated with iron. Vessels of this kind could not be built under an expense of less than a quarter of a million, and if we were to go on producing vessels of this class, it would occasion a most enormous expense to the country. But as far as the instructions adopted by former Boards of Admiralty were concerned, in no respect had the Estimates for the naval armaments of the country been diminished by the present Administration. In going into this question, moreover, it was not sufficient that larger Estimates should be taken—it was necessary that the expenditure should be properly adjusted. If he (the Duke of Somerset) wished to produce a number of vessels upon paper, the best course he could take would be to convert existing vessels into screw line-of-battle ships. Thus a fleet would be produced upon paper, but it would consist of vessels of comparative inefficiency. But, after all, the great question with which they had to deal was the question of manning the navy. This was a subject which must also be attended with very considerable expense, of a threefold character; first, that which arose from the immediate loss occasioned by taking men from their usual engagements; secondly, that of bringing up a number of men from boyhood to serve as sailors, which was a very effectual process; and thirdly, the adoption of an extensive system of bounty, which, though there could be no doubt of its necessity, must also entail a great expenditure upon the country. In dealing with all these questions a great degree of careful attention
  528
  was necessary. On all accounts, however, it was essential to bring our naval force into a state of efficiency. What they had to provide for was not merely a question of attack upon the shores of this land. They had to consider the position of the country as a great maritime power, and they must endeavour to maintain the country in that position at however great an expenditure. No doubt a great outlay would be required for this purpose, much of which would be entirely wasted: but it was both justifiable and necessary as a precautionary measure, because if in the capital or any other seat of commerce any feeling were to prevail that this country was not properly protected, the pecuniary loss sustained by the country would be very much greater than any sums which would be necessary to be expended for its defence. That was the view he had taken with regard to the future position of the navy; and he could assure the House that, both with regard to providing ships and the men for manning them, the present Board of Admiralty were as anxious to do their duty as the late Board, and to pursue a course which would place the maritime defences of the country in a satisfactory condition.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid he felt very much satisfied with the statement, as far as it went, of the noble Duke. He cordially joined in the sentiment expressed by the noble Duke that the great object to be achieved was the raising the maritime defences of the country to a pitch of efficiency which would preclude all apprehensions of invasion. He held that it was the duty of the Government to render the navy of England sufficiently powerful not only to maintain the British Channel as the British Channel, but to enable us to insist that the boundaries of this country in that direction should be the low-water mark on the French shore. They might talk of the militia, rifle corps, and all the rest of it, but if there was a chance of a he stile fleet of men-of-war appearing off the English coast, such would be the feeling which it would produce in the country that far more pecuniary suffering would be occasioned than any that the noble Duke could cause by any measures he might take for placing the naval defences on a satisfactory footing. In former wars our Parliamentary Government had been able to maintain great naval forces; but he might be permitted to refer to the condition of the French navy during the last war, and to the manner in which

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  that navy surmounted the difficulties it had to encounter. In 1794, the year after the commencement of the war, the French had seventy-seven line-of-battle ships, and 176 frigates. In 1812, having suffered defeat at Trafalgar, and having sustained severe blows at various other times, their line-of-battle ships had risen to 113, and their frigates to 272. So that, even then, in the face of such disasters, their power of production was such as to give us ample warning of the achievements in that respect, of which the means and energies of the French people were capable under the most adverse circumstances. The noble Duke had made a statement of what had been the progress of advancement in the British fleet during the years 1853 to 1859. The year 1853 was the year after the retirement of his noble Friend (the Earl of Derby) from office; and in the year 1852 the first screw line-of-battle ship was built, under the naval administration of the Duke of Northumberland. From 1853 to 1859, the rate of progress of the British navy had been very irregular. To the close of 1857, when the late Government took office, there were afloat twenty-five screw-sail of the line. During the 411 days of the late Administration the Government had raised the number to fifty sail of the line. Nothing, he understood, had had so great an effect upon the French people, nothing had created so great astonishment, as this rapid power of production by the Government and the maritime yards of this country; and it had, as he had been assured, formed a subject of consideration on the other side of the Channel. But there was one description of vessel the creation of which would render very great service to the navy if due attention were paid to it. He would venture to suggest to the noble Duke that while he was rapidly augmenting the strength of the naval force he should turn his attention to the condition of our frigates. That class of vessels, being of a light draught of water, it was well known were extremely useful in time of war in enabling a belligerent to know where his enemy was, as well as for purposes of convoy and communication. They might be considered as the eyes of the fleet. In 1815 this country had as many as 314 frigates; and their Lordships would remember that Lord Nelson, who always placed the greatest reliance on that class of vessels, said on one occasion he believed after he was dead the word
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  "frigates" would be found engraven on his heart, for without them he could neither see nor hear. In frigates the French were still superior to us. The question of money was of comparatively little importance, and he trusted the noble Duke would only take into consideration he w he could best use the power of production at his disposal, and he w he could most efficiently obtain men for the ships when built. In the evidence laid before the Commissioners for Manning the Navy, it appeared to be the opinion of the chief authorities that in the event of hostilities it was of the greatest importance that this country should have three fleets—one of 30 sail of the line in the Channel, one of 20 sail of the line in the Mediterranean, and another of 20 sail of the line in the North Sea, with frigates and light vessels in proportion. There could be no safety to the country unless the navy were raised to that extent. Then there were the demands of our foreign and colonial stations to be supplied; so that altogether, according to the best authorities, we ought not to he content with less than 80 sail of the line and a proportionate number of frigates and light vessels. This might seem a large force to be under the necessity of keeping up, but it must be remembered that in 1815 we had 831 vessels afloat, of which 244 were line-of-battle ships and that now we had only fifty sail of the line, which were not all ready for sea. All the points relating to the subject of manning the navy were dealt with in the Report of the Commissioners. It might be objected to that Report that it was somewhat speculative, and no doubt it was open to that objection, because, in the first place, it was not certain that the number of men necessary to form a reserved volunteer corps could be got; nor when they were got and their names entered on the books was it certain that they would always be forthcoming when wanted. A great number of shipping masters had been consulted by the Commissioners on this question, and they were all of opinion that a retaining fee would be likely to induce a number of men to come forward and enter themselves, and they thought that this plan, if limited in a certain way—giving the fee only to men engaged in short voyages—would secure all the advantages required. The late Government had placed the matter on such a footing as would, in a few years, if the present Government carried out their views earnestly, place the country in a

  531
  most satisfactory position in regard to manning the navy. There would be an absolute certainty of obtaining men when they were needed, and great expense would be saved by doing away with the necessity of keeping up large establishments when there was no use for them.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: My Lords, I heard with great satisfaction what fell from the noble Duke opposite with respect to the intentions of the present Government on the important subject of the navy; but it was no more than I expected, because I could not but bear in mind what fell from Lord Palmerston two or three years ago, in the course of a discussion on the navy in the other House. The noble Lord said, he thought the navy of this country ought to be equal to contend not only with the navy of France, but also with the navy of any other great maritime Power united with France; and I think it is impossible that under the present circumstances of the country, which are much graver than any which existed at that time, or indeed, in my opinion, at any time during the last half century, Lord Palmerston could in the slightest degree have changed that opinion. If that be the object which we have in view, the noble Duke must feel that he is only in a state of progress, and that he has a great deal to do. I believe I might venture to go as for as my noble and gallant Friend who spoke last, and say that no force of line-of-battle ships less than seventy would be sufficient for the protection of our maritime interests. I would not distribute them as he proposes to do, but that number we ought to have. We ought to have, also, a proportionate number of smaller vessels for the protection of our trade, for it must be recollected that however equal our navy may be with the navies of France and Russia, the detachments we are compelled to send out for the protection of our colonies and our trade, extending all over the world, are so great that the force remaining for the defence of our own country is by no means so great as we ought to have. But I rose principally to endeavour to impress upon your Lordships and the country the truth which I feel most deeply, that no extent of increased efficiency which you can give to your navy can now, under the changed circumstances of navigation, give you an effectual protection against invasion, if an enemy be determined to invade you. The advantage which an enemy determined to take the initiative derives from the posses-
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  sion of forts like Brest and Cherbourg, and from the improvements in steam navigation, are so great that, at least during six months in the year, he may land 60,000 or 80,000 men upon any beach on the south coast of England. But recollect that the great advantage of a powerful and superior fleet is, that though a force may be landed it loses its communications. The late Emperor Napoleon said—and I have no doubt the present Emperor has seen reason to adopt the maxim—that the science of war consists in the science of communication. If that be so, no prudent general would land a force in this country unless he had a reasonable expectation of always being able to preserve a communication with the country from which that force had come. And this leads one to offer a suggestion for the immediate consideration of the noble Duke, which is this—that no time whatever should be lost in protecting all the ports and all the roads in which it would be possible for an enemy to place a fleet with any degree of security, and where he might form tâte de pont that would assist his future operations. I trust he will lose no time in placing at every one of these points—and I particularly recommend to his notice the port of Portland—some one fort at least, capable of sustaining a siege of a week or a fortnight, so that it would be impossible for an enemy to he ld that position with a fleet to assist his operations. I refer to the new port of Portland, that port which the late French Ambassador went down to reconnoitre, and which he took the trouble of visiting at the end of last summer in order to see the particular advantages it possessed. I trust that whenever that respectable gentleman goes to that port again he will find it in a better position than when he saw it last. Now, my Lords, whatever you do with respect to the navy, it is impossible to neglect your army—that military strength by which at last must be defended everything we value. The noble Duke is right to extend the force of the navy. It is a security for our interest and honour, and it may be productive of great advantages in carrying on our defences. But of itself our navy is not sufficient, and unless you determine to establish on a permanent and secure basis the future military defences of this country, I feel confident that, considering the passions that animate persons on the Continent who are he stile to us, considering the vast power at their disposal and the reasons for running the risk

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  of invasion, I can speak with perfect assurance, and to my own mind almost in the language of prophecy, that the attempt will be made, It will not he made during this war. What we have to apprehend is when this war has terminated—when France has broken the military strength of Austria,—when she has terrified the other Powers of the Continent—when there is a close connection and understanding with Russia—and when she has the opportunity of bringing a disciplined and victorious army—for they will consider themselves certain of success—to realize the last project of the Emperor Napoleon I., all whose projects the present Emperor has boasted it is his fate to accomplish. I cannot close these few observations without expressing my conviction that if we do not take advantage of this respite of time —of the advantage given us by the war France is engaged in—we shall imperil everything that every man in this country values—its independence, its honour, and its constitution.

CHURCH RATES BILL.

  PRESENTED AND READ 1ª.
  LORD PORTMAN presented a Bill to abolish Church Rates, and to make Provision for the Maintenance of the Fabrics of Churches. The noble Lord said, that in the then condition of the House and of the right rev. Bench he would not enter into any statement concerning church rates. He would merely ask the House to read his Bill a first time, with a view to its being printed before the debate should take place on the proposed Committee on this subject, which had been postponed by the noble Duke (the Duke of Marlborough) to a future day. Meanwhile he would only say that the difficulty of settling this question was becoming greater as the delay of doing so grew, and that, were it longer postponed, it might become impossible to settle it on the basis which at present satisfied the great majority of the House of Commons.
  Bill read 1a.
  House adjourned at half-past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.