Lords Sitting of 21 February 1859

MINUTES
. Took the Oaths.—The Bishop of Ossory.
PUBLIC BILLS.—la Ecclesiastical Courts and Registries (Ireland); Occasional Forms of Prayer.
2a Ecton and Walton Exchange.

THE IONIAN ISLANDS.

  MOTION POSTPONED.
  THE EARL OF DERBY:—My Lords, seeing in his place the noble Earl (Earl Grey) who has given notice of a Motion tonight on the subject of the Ionian Islands, I trust that my motives will not be misconstrued if I make an earnest appeal to him to postpone his Motion for a fortnight. I can assure the noble Earl that I shall not shrink at the proper time from discussing the whole of the recommendations made by the Government when they have such information before them as may enable them to discuss the question without detriment to the public service; but I can also assure the noble. Earl that the question at this moment under the consideration of the Legislature of the Ionian Islands, is one which cannot be discussed at present without serious inconvenience to the public service. It is one, indeed, upon which I cannot enter into discussion with the noble Earl, and its discussion here may prevent the possibility—and it is no more than a possibility—of the acceptance of the propositions of the Lord High Commissioner as the basis of future legisla-

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  tion. Under these circumstances, considering that to a great extent my mouth will be closed, and that I shall not be able to explain fully the objects which the Lord High Commissioner has in view, and considering, also, that although the paper containing these propositions is an authentic document, yet that it has been transmitted without covering letter, or a single explanatory observation, and that the whole case is at the present moment pending, I earnestly appeal to the noble Earl not to commence a discussion that can take place in a short time with so much greater advantage to the public. Mr. Gladstone left the Ionian Islands on his way home on Saturday, and he will probably be in England on Monday or Tuesday next. Considering that the Government have had no opportunity of communicating with Mr. Gladstone, I put it to the noble Earl whether it will not be fairer—I will not say to Her Majesty's Government, but to Mr. Gladstone—that he should return home before any discussion of the kind contemplated by the noble Earl takes place.
  EARL GREY: My Lords, the appeal made to me by the noble Earl places me under a considerable difficulty, because when the First Minister of the Crown states upon his responsibility that a discussion of a particular question would lead to serious inconvenience to the public service, there can be in general no hesitation in submitting to that appeal. But the noble Earl, in the course of his appeal to me, has given as a reason for requesting postponement that the discussion might possibly have some effect in inducing the Assembly of the Ionian Islands to reject the proposals that have been made. Now, as I am of opinion that the rejection of those proposals is in the highest degree desirable—that there can be no such great public misfortune in this transaction as that they should be accepted and ratified by Her Majesty—the noble Earl's request rather increases the difficulty I feel; and for this reason, that the case of the Ionian Islands is very different from the case of a British colony. In a British colony, if the colonial Legislature passes some law that will be highly injurious to the empire at large, in that extreme case the authority of the Imperial Legislature can be invoked, and the injury may be prevented; but in the case of the Ionian Islands the Imperial Parliament has no authority whatever. They are constituted by the treaty a "free and independent State." Those are the
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  very words of the treaty. Her Majesty, as protecting Sovereign, has certain authority in those States, and it is in the power of Parliament, before Her Majesty exercises that authority, to tender its respectful advice upon that as well as other topics. But when Her Majesty has once ratified a change in the constitution of the Ionian Islands, Parliament has no authority whatever, and no alteration can be made in the arrangement so effected, except by the authority of the Ionian States. My Lords, it was on these accounts that I was anxious to call your Lordships' attention to the subject; but, seeing that it would be highly painful to me to persevere after the noble Earl has stated it would be inconvenient to him that I should do so, I am willing to postpone the Motion—but upon one, and only one, condition, and that is, that in the event of the Ionian Parliament acceding to the proposals made to them, the Resolutions they may pass in consequence shall not be submitted to Her Majesty for Her final ratification until they have been laid before Parliament, and until Parliament has had an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon them. If that is declined I shall have no alternative, and it will be my duty to persevere with my Motion.
  LORD BROUGHAMthought, that though in general the fact of a public servant being abroad on the public service was no reason for abstaining from discussion on his conduct—for such a rule would apply a fatal limit to discussion—yet the present he regarded as a peculiar or exceptional case. His right hon. Friend the Lord High Commissioner was on his way home at this moment, and must arrive in this country in the course of a week or two, if not in a few days; therefore, in this case the argument that they ought not to be prevented from discussing the conduct of an absent public servant failed, because the authority of Parliament would only be suspended for the period of a few days. He hoped, therefore, in fairness to his right hon. Friend, as well as to the subject itself, that his noble Friend (Earl Grey) would postpone his Motion. Whether the Government would agree to the condition his noble Friend had imposed he could not, of course, say; but he hoped and trusted that the Motion would be postponed, both on account of the public service and in fairness and justice towards his right hon. Friend.
  THE EARL OF DERBY:—My Lords, I

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  have some difficulty as to the precise answer which I ought to give to the proposition of the noble Earl—namely, that no Acts passed by the Legislature of the Ionian Islands on this subject shall receive the ratification of Her Majesty until they have been submitted to Parliament. I am not quite sure whether it would be consistent with the rights of the Ionian Parliament to give a pledge in that form; but if the noble Earl consents to postpone his Motion, I shall promise that no application of any Act passed by the Ionian Legislature shall take place till the noble Earl has had an opportunity of bringing forward the subject.
  EARL GRANVILLE:—I wish to ask whether Her Majesty's Government have received any information as yet as to the manner in which the proposed constitution has been received by the Ionian Parliament. I was not in the House the other evening when this subject was brought forward by my noble Friend; but I gather from the usual sources of information that the noble Lord, the Under Secretary for the Colonies, stated that the heads of the proposed constitution had been approved by the Government, and that the Queen's name had been used in respect to them. I should like to know whether I am right in understanding that to have been the statement made by the noble Lord.
  THE EARL OF DERBY:—I have no difficulty in answering the two questions put by the noble Earl. And first, as regards the manner in which the heads of the constitution have been received by the Ionian Parliament. The Resolutions in which they were embodied were submitted to the Ionian Legislature on the 5th; and up to the 14th or 15th no decision had been come to regarding them, though various propositions had been made and discussed. Indeed, we have heard by telegraph that up to the time of Mr. Gladstone leaving the island the Legislature had come to no decision on the subject. With regard to the second question, what my noble Friend the Under Secretary for the Colonies said the other evening was, that the propositions made by the Lord High Commissioner were made with the assent and sanction of Her Majesty's Government—that communications had taken place between the Secretary of State for the Colonies and Mr. Gladstone—that the latter sent home reports containing various recommendations—that the substance of these reports were subsequently embodied
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  in the Resolutions which the Lord High Commissioner had submitted to the Ionian Parliament, but these Resolutions themselves had not been seen by the Government. They embodied the substance of the recommendations made in the reports to which I have referred; but the Resolutions themselves were not seen by the Government till they were transmitted by the Lord High Commissioner as having been laid before the Ionian Legislature. They were transmitted without any explanatory notes. These are substantially the statements made by my noble Friend the other night, and they are quite consistent with each other.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, to Thursday next,
  half-past Ten o'clock.