Lords Sitting of 17 February 1859

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Ecton and Walton Exchange.
3a Law of Property and Trustees Relief Amendment.

THE IONIAN ISLANDS.—QUESTION.
EARL GREY: My Lords, I wish to ask the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the account which has recently appeared in the newspapers of certain proposals for a change in the constitution of the Ionian Islands having been recommended by Mr. Gladstone, Her Majesty's Lord High Commissoner to the Ionian Parliament, is authentic; and, if so, whether those proposals have met with the approval of Her Majesty's Government; and, also, whether there will be any objection to lay on the table of the House the correspondence which has passed upon the subject.
THE EARL OF CARNARVON: My Lords, in answer to the question which the noble Earl has put so briefly and distinctly, I have to say, first of all, as regards the report which appeared in the newspapers two days since of the Message communicated by Mr. Gladstone in his capacity of Lord High Commissioner to the Ionian Islands, that that report is per-
464
fectly authentic and correct. The noble Earl also asks whether the reforms embraced in that Message, and in the communications attached to it, were sanctioned by Her Majesty's Government. Just let me remind the House first of the position and circumstances of this question. Last autumn, serious difficulties having arisen—difficulties threatening to make themselves felt in the internal administration of the Ionian Islands—my right hon. Friend at the head of the Colonial Office felt that the first step to be taken in this matter was to obtain accurate information on the points connected with the alleged grievances and anomalies. Accurate information could only be obtained by local inquiry in the Ionian Islands themselves; and, knowing the importance of obtaining an impartial judgment on the subject, he proposed to Mr. Gladstone to undertake the task of a special mission for that purpose. Mr. Gladstone accepted that task, and received before leaving this country full instructions and communications, many of them of a confidential nature. On his arrival at Corfu he addressed himself with extreme ability and with indefatigable patience to an inquiry into the alleged grievances; and after a very full investigation he communicated to Her Majesty's Government first of all those facts with which he conceived it necessary for them to be acquainted; and, secondly, recommendations of a remedial character which he thought it necessary to propose. Both those reports were taken into serious consideration by Her Majesty's Government, and the recommendations of Mr. Gladstone were approved. About that time circumstances took place, into which it is unnecessary for me to enter, which occasioned a vacancy in the office of Lord High Commissioner. My right hon. Friend at the head of the Colonial Department—feelling the weight and authority of the proposals which Mr. Gladstone had recommended for adoption, and which had been concurred in by Her Majesty's Government, and feeling also with how much greater weight and authority those proposals would come from a person possessing the confidence of the Ionian people and one who had made himself completely master of the subject—proposed to Mr. Gladstone to undertake provisionally the duties of Lord High Commissioner, and to that proposition Mr. Gladstone consented, in order to give substantial effect to his own recommendations. This has been done, and the

465
Seventeen Resolutions and the Message to which the noble Earl has alluded embody the formal expression of the recommendations which he made to the Government, and which the Government has approved. I pass now to the last part of the noble Earl's question, as to the laying the correspondence on the table of the House. I regret very much that I am unable to give the noble Earl an answer in the affirmative. The whole Correspondence, with some few exceptions, bears on those questions which are at this very moment submitted to the consideration of the Ionian Assembly; and I cannot conceive anything more likely seriously to prejudice the issue of those deliberations, and to affect unsatisfactorily the whole proceedings in this matter, than the publication of these papers at this moment. I therefore trust the noble Earl will not press that point. I can assure him that as soon as the Ionian Assembly have pronounced their decision, and have either accepted or refused the propositions made to them, and that the matter is in a condition to be brought before Parliament, there will be no delay on the part of Her Majesty's Government to present to the House any papers which may be necessary for the due consideration or discussion of the subject.
EARL GREY: My Lords, I think it is quite reasonable, when serious questions of this sort are pending, that no demand should be made for the production of papers relating to them; but we cannot disguise from ourselves that in respect to this matter there is a possibility, at all events, of steps being taken—and if once taken they will be irrevocable—that may lead to very serious consequences. Before these steps are taken, I think it necessary that this subject should be discussed by your Lordships' House; and, therefore, though I certainly will not press for papers which Her Majesty's Government on their responsibility declare cannot be produced, I shall on Monday next move an Address to the Crown for the production of papers in order that with such information as we now possess we may discuss this very important subject, and that Her Majesty's Government may state more clearly than they can do at this moment their grounds for objecting to the production of those papers. I hope that before I make that Motion a certain portion of those pagers may, at all events, be produced.
THE EARL OF DERBY: I think it right to say that the same motives which
466
render it, in my opinion, highly impolitic that the papers connected with this subject should be laid on the table of the House will equally apply on the part of Her Majesty's Government with regard to a discussion of the question at the present moment. Although of course it rests with the noble Earl opposite to say whether he will be satisfied with the explanation that has been given, I must not only on the part of Her Majesty's Government refuse the production of these papers, but I must, under present circumstances, decline to enter into a discussion of this matter.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: It is admitted that the papers in question, under present circumstances, cannot be produced, and that discussion may be dangerous; but I wish to ask my noble Friend the Under-Secretary for the Colonies in what manner, supposing the constitution to be accepted, the Lord Commissioner is to be enabled to dismiss the Ministry if the Ministry should not be willing to go out? Under the Constitution every Act must be countersigned by the Minister, and therefore, unless the Ministry consent to their own elimination, it is quite impossible to remove them. Nor is it possible for the Lord High Commissioner either to prorogue or dissolve the Parliament without the consent of the existing Ministry—prorogation or dissolution being the only means of enabling him to extricate himself from their power. I perceive, also, that one of the recommendations, as I understand them, of the Lord High Commissioner is, that the Senate shall have a longer duration than the Assembly; and, if that be the case, it may be impossible to dissolve both the Senate and the Assembly simultaneously. There is another point. The majority of the Senate is to be elected by somebody different to that which elects the Assembly, the result of which would in all probability be that the Ministers will always obtain a majority in the Senate; and as it is only by means of the Senate that alterations in the law could be introduced into the Assembly, the Senate being elected for a longer period than the Assembly, if the Ministry had a constant majority there they would possess more power than I think will be at all convenient.
THE EARL OF DERBY: I think your Lordships must see the inconvenience of discussing, in the very partial manner in which it is possible to discuss them, questions on which we have very imperfect and inadequate information. My noble Friend

467
seems to forget that if we are to enter upon this subject we shall be going into the discussion of questions which, in the form of Resolutions, are to come for consideration before the Legislature of the independent Republic of the Ionian Islands. In that Legislature all these questions are about to be discussed, and the recommendations brought forward by Mr. Gladstone are to be considered, for the purpose of eliciting the opinion of the people of the Ionian Islands. When that opinion has been ascertained it will be the duty of that Legislature to embody it in an Act according to the constitution of the country, and that Act can be of no force until it has received the sanction of the Crown, For these reasons it appears to me to be inconvenient to discuss these questions before the Legislative Assembly of the Ionian Islands has come to some decision respecting them. I think that by doing so we may place the matter in a very false position. Her Majesty's Government have no control over the Ionian Islands. By treaty Her Majesty is the protecting Power, but also by treaty those Islands form the independent Septinsular Republic. Their legislation is not subject to the control of the British Parliament, although it requires the sanction of Her Majesty; and upon that sanction being given or withheld it is open to Parliament to pronounce an opinion upon the propriety of the course thus adopted.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: I understand distinctly from the published account of Mr. Gladstone's speech, which, is no doubt, authentic, that these propositions have been laid before the Assembly, to be adopted or rejected by them en bloc, and that that body is not to be allowed to alter them in any way, but must take the whole or none.
THE EARL OF DERBY: I think my noble Friend is under a misapprehension; but this is a proof of the inconvenience of discussing this matter now. No doubt, Mr. Gladstone's statement is, that these propositions are to be considered as forming a whole, and that it is not competent to the Ionian Legislature to give their assent to such portion of the plan as may secure the attainment of their special objects, while they reject that portion of it which affords securities for the maintenance of the authority of the Crown. Full permission, however, is given to the Ionian Legislature to suggest any modifications in the details of the scheme which they
468
may think desirable, and it will be for Her Majesty to decide whether She will accept or reject such modifications.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: I hope the noble Earl does not mean to contend that it would not be competent to the Imperial Parliament to express an opinion on the propriety or the impropriety of the course pursued by Mr. Gladstone, with the sanction of the Government, in submitting such Resolutions to the Ionian Legislature.
THE EARL OF DERBY: It will be perfectly competent to the Members of either House of Parliament to pronounce an opinion upon that point if they shall think fit. But I must, in the performance of my public duty, oppose any attempt to raise any discussion in this House upon proposals which are still under the consideration of the Ionian Legislature.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: These are the expressions which I found in Mr. Gladstone's speech:—
"The points which I have now named to you are those which appear to be essential to a beneficial readjustment of your constitution. It is requisite that I should give you fully to understand that the few but important provisions I have recommended as guarantees for tranquil and stable government are tendered to you as a whole."
THE EARL OF DERBY: You have not read the whole.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: I will. He proceeds to say:—
"Any vote impairing any of these would be fatal to the entire plan; and I must add, with respect to all the leading points I have touched, that England has kept nothing in reserve; and that, if you do not approve the outlines she has laid down, you may find advantage in dealing with them generally, and declining to accept them. I feel certain that in any case the Assembly will meet the question frankly; and that, mindful of its dignity, it will discountenance any attempt to evade by indirect measures the duty of uttering a clear and intelligible opinion upon proposals of such great moment to the Ionian people. In that spirit I act when I inform you that any vote, such as to alter materially their character, would shake the whole fabric to its base, and might at any stage annul the labours previously spent by rendering it needful that the whole subject should be reconsidered."
It appears, therefore, that the Assembly are not to be allowed to introduce any modification into the scheme.

LAW OF PROPERTY AND TRUSTEES RELIEF AMENDMENT BILL.
LORD ST. LEONARDS LORD ST. LEONARDS moved that the Bill be now read a third time.
THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he did not wish to offer any impediment to the passing of the measure, but he thought it right to

469
state that his attention had been called to one of the clauses, which, in the opinion of the Board of Customs, would materially interfere with the securities given for the due collection and transmission of the public revenue. The 25th Clause provided in general terms that no judgment or security upon land shall be valid against a bonâ fide purchaser, whether such purchaser have notice of such bond or not, unless execution shall have been obtained before the disposal of the property. Up to 1839 all obligations to the Crown were binding upon purchasers of land under charge; but in that year his noble Friend (Lord St. Leonards) introduced a measure relieving a bonâ fide purchaser from liability unless the charge had been duly registered according to a form prescribed by the Act. Under that Act the Commissioners of Customs had proceeded in taking bonds from collectors charged upon land; but if the proposal in the Bill were adopted such bonds would become personal only. He should not oppose the third reading, but thought it unlikely that the clause would pass the other House.
LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, the Bill passed this House, and had been in the other House last Session, when no objection had been taken to the 25th clause, although another clause was struck out. The tendency of present legislation was to give a clear title to a bonâ fide purchaser, even at the risk of barring existing charges upon land. It was upon this principle that Her Majesty's Government had themselves proceeded in drawing the two Bills which, much to their credit, had a few evenings since been introduced by the Solicitor General in the other House. This measure had been favourably received by the other House as well as by the general body of solicitors. He had a strong opinion that no fiscal law ought to impede the creation of a clear title between one man and another. A judgment was one of the greatest impediments, because it was a floating kind of security; but the Bill was not intended to deprive the holder of the judgment of any of his rights against the person giving it. Those rights remained the same as at present; but upon a sale the judgment creditor would have his claim upon the purchase money. He saw no reason why any exception should be made in the case of the Government to the disadvantage of a bonâ fide purchaser of property.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he wished to take that opportunity of suggesting to the
470
Government the propriety of altering that provision under which government property was at present exempt from the payment of local rates. That state of the law was productive of great hardship and injustice.
THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, that notice of the introduction of a Bill to remedy that grievance had already been given in the other House.
Bill read 3a (according to order); an Amendment made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

ECTON AND WALTON EXCHANGE BILL.
THE EARL OF DERBYlaid upon the table a Bill to effect en exchange of Ecclesiastical Patronage between Her Majesty the Queen, and Miss Sophia Broadley. No such exchange could, under the present state of the law, be effected without the sanction of Parliament, and the propriety of altering that law was a point which he would not then undertake to discuss. The particular occasion which had given rise to the framing of that measure was an offer made by a lady to exchange an advowson in her possession for two advowsons held by the Crown, her intention being to build new schools and to effect other improvements in those properties. He might add that the Archbishop of York and the Bishop of Rochester, in whose dioceses these two livings were respectively situated, had given their assent to the proposal, and that in introducing a public instead of a private Bill upon the subject he was but following the precedents of 1848, in the cases of Lord Leigh and Lord Leicester, between whom and the Crown a similar transfer had taken place.
LORD BROUGHAMwas of opinion that it would be of the greatest possible advantage not only to the interests of the Church, but of private individuals, that such transactions as that to which the Bill related should be made the subject of a general law.
Bill read 1a.
House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow half past Ten o'clock.