Lords Sitting of 9 August 1859

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—la Consolidated Fund (Appropriation); Stamp Duties; Customs (No. 2); East India Loan; Militia Pay; Reserve Volunteer Force of Seamen; Government of India Act Amendment; Reserve Force; In-closure Acts Amendment; Stock in Trade Exemption; Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction Continuance; Episcopal and Capitular Estates Act Continuance; Inclosure; Corrupt Practices Prevention Act (1854) Continuance; Poor Law Boards (Payment of Debts); Medical Acts Amendment; Weights and Measures Act Amendment.
2a Militia Laws Amendment.
3a Galway Harbour and Port Act (1853) Amendment; Fishing Vessels passing the Nore; Westminster New Bridge; Imprisonment for Small Debts; Law Ascertainment Facilities.

MILITIA LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  THE EARL OF RIPON, in moving the second reading of the Bill, explained that its object was, in the first place, to strengthen the power of the Government in regard to the employment of the militia
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  regiments, and to save a large impending expense. The Act authorizing the interchange of the Irish and English militia regiments, provided that no Irish regiment should be detained for a longer period than two years in England, and a similar restriction regulated the stay of the English regiments in Ireland, nor could more than one fourth of the English militia be employed in Ireland or one-third of the Irish militia in England at the same time. It was now proposed to do away with those restrictions; first, because it was desirable that all portions of the United Kingdom should be regarded as one and the same country; and, in the next place, because there were at present several English militia regiments in Ireland and several Irish regiments in England, which, under the existing law, it would be necessary to send back, some to England and the others to Ireland, in the course of the autumn. Such a proceeding would entail a large expense on the country, and this Bill was intended to obviate it. The other provisions of the Bill were framed upon the Report of the Militia Commission, and were of a character which did not provoke discussion. Her Majesty was enabled to accept the voluntary services of the militia beyond the period hitherto limited, or their voluntary offer to serve in the Channel Islands. Fresh powers were also given to appoint training places; to extend the term of service of men who should absent themselves from the appointed trainings; and for the trial and punishment of deserters.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
  LORD STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFEsaid, he did not intend to offer any obstruction to the second reading of the Bill, but only desired to make a few observations upon the subject of the defences of the country. As far as he understood the Bill, there was nothing in its stated provisions that he disapproved, and in considering our national means of defence that natural and constitutional force, the Militia, could not be overlooked, and the clauses of the Bill tended to put that force on a better footing than heretofore by giving increased power to the Government to employ the militia regiments, and offering greater inducements for the men to enter into the views of Government. In these respects he thought the Bill an improvement, as far as it went. Indeed, if there was anything connected with the subject which he regretted it was to be found in the state of the militia law under the ex-

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  isting Acts of Parliament. He regretted, in particular, that the ballot was no longer to be resorted to as in former times. He could not, indeed, but regret that the ballot had ever been suspended, for it was the constitutional mode of coercing the people into taking arms for the defence of the country, and it had the sanction of two centuries at least in favour of its practice. We had need of a much larger force than we possessed; we lived in a country where the conscription was not permitted, and he trusted never would be permitted, without a palpable necessity; but for the defence of the country a principle of coercion was acted upon in former times in the construction of the Militia, which it would be well to recur to now. Experience had long shown how difficult it was to supply the ranks of the regular army to a sufficient degree, and with the necessary promptitude; but the constitutional force of the Militia should be kept up, so as to form an effective nursery for the regular army, and more especially did present circumstances recommend that measure to our earnest attention. He, therefore, would be glad, if in some future Bill—namely, of next year, for it was too late this Session—the ballot should be revived, as, although some inconveniences might be caused by its resumption, they could not be compared with the great advantages that would be derived from its operation. This was a subject that merited serious consideration, and he thought the course he suggested was alike in harmony with our necessities and with our constitutional principles. It was said, that if the ballot were revived, it would introduce discontent among the officers of the militia, who disliked the idea of making the militia a nursery for the army, because the effect of that idea would be to take away their best men, and reduce their regiments below the scale of efficiency. He did not, however, see why these results should necessarily occur. The operation of enlisting for the regular regiments would be a voluntary one; moreover, the practice, if it had any such drawbacks, must be weighed against its advantages; and even if some discontent were occasionally felt by the militia officers, this would be better than for the country to be left in a comparatively defenceless condition. He remembered that when young it fell to his lot to be balloted into the militia, and in lieu of personal service to provide a substitute. For himself he should have had no objection to join a
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  militia regiment; but it often happened that an individual, who entered the service reluctantly, took fire from the use of arms, and was induced to go into the regular army, where he became a useful and spirited soldier. They were now within a few days of the recess, a recess to be protracted, perhaps, for several months, during which time Parliament could have no voice as to the defence of the country—no voice in the adoption of measures which might greatly affect our political position. We were at present surrounded by uncertainties: much gloom might be truly said to hang over the horizon. Within the compass of a short Session, they had seen the Continent from a state of peace plunged into a state of war; and again from a state of war restored to a state of peace. It should be remembered, that during a recess of such length the Continent might with equal facility change again from a state of peace to a state of war; and who could say but that we might find it more difficult a second time to maintain the neutrality which we had so happily observed during the late contest. Even the negotiations which were about to take place at Zurich might involve many causes of anxiety, and, as they proceeded, increase the gloom which now darkened the horizon. What did we know of what had already taken place? Our knowledge was exceedingly imperfect, and unfortunately the little we did know was far from giving satisfactory assurance for the future. The balance of international justice was held exclusively by hands that were still reeking with blood. We had taken no part in the war, we had no part in the peace; we were not likely to take any part—it was hardly possible to conceive that we could do so—in the negotiations at Zurich; and it was scarcely possible for any one to foretell what would be the result of a Conference whenever or where-ever it should take place. What, let him ask, was known on that subject to the world? We found Austria virtually in the same position she was in before the war—he meant, that if any necessity should require her to act upon a policy unfavourable to Italy, she was pretty much in the same position for doing so as she had been before the commencement of hostilities. If she had derived the motives of her conduct from such necessity of position the same necessity still existed. Then, as to Sardinia, how stood the case with that Power? The active, he wished he could say the honest part, which Sardinia

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  had taken in the late war, was one not difficult to understand, if the feelings and interests of Sardinia were considered, but it was also one which could hardly be reconciled with the established rules of justice and good faith. No man admired more than himself the talents of the illustrious Minister who might be called the hero of the late events; but his warmest admirer must admit that there was much to regret in the course he had pursued and the means he had employed for compassing his end. Sardinia had gained by the war—in fact she was as yet the only gainer. But what had she gained? She had acquired Lombardy without the fortresses—a province exposed upon its weakest side. She also stood in the same position as before towards the great reforming party in Italy. She had still the same temptations for her ambition, and the same inducements of sympathy which led to the recent events. Then, as to France, how stood the case? They saw in that country a Sovereign wielding great power with all the brilliancy of great military successes—one who was by no means undeserving of praise—one who would justly have excited our best expectations for the future, if we had nothing in the past to reflect upon; nothing to make us hesitate before we could be justified in giving him our unqualified confidence? Did he stand in an altered position? Had he less reason than before to consult the pleasure of the Pope, and the convictions of the great Church party in France? How were his interests to be reconciled with the requirements of Italy and other circumstances of the present emergency? How stood the case with regard to Italy at large? The Chief of the Papal States, what was his position? Had anything happened to make him surrender his long established policy? Was he likely, because a shadow of papal influence had been thrown over the whole of Italy, to give up any portion of his substantive power? Considering the motives he must have, as head of the Catholic Church, to retain his influence in its full extent, could he be expected to make of his own free will so painful a sacrifice? Then there was Garibaldi at the head of no trifling force, with all the honour and the credit attached to his cause and successes. Then there was Mazzini—in the back ground at present, but still alive and on foot. There was, moreover, Naples and there was Sicily. In short, wherever you might turn, a thousand difficulties were to be encountered.
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  Now, when he looked back upon his own country, what was our position? Was it one of strength? It was not. Was it one of high unimpaired credit, and unquestionable independence? It was not. And yet if England were to enter into the coming discussion—if we were to take part in those negotiations—we must have it deeply at heart, if not for selfish gratification, still for purposes of benevolence, and the general advantage to wield an effective influence. Where was that influence to be found? It might be found in the abilities of those to whom the conduct of any eventual negotiations might be entrusted, but it would not be an easy task to find it anywhere else. On these, as on other accounts, with which he would not trouble their Lordships, he had derived much satisfaction from what he had heard of the opinions expressed last night in another place. It seemed to him, according to what he could gather from that quarter, that Her Majesty's Government were prepared to take the right course. What he meant by the right course was, not to determine beforehand against going into a Congress after the first preliminaries were settled, but to determine not to go into a Congress without being satisfied that by entering into it we should do honour and credit to ourselves, together with advantage to those whose interests we were called upon to protect. The language, which had transpired from another place, might fairly justify a belief that if we went into Congress we should not be impelled by a spirit of meddling interference, or by the desire of domineering, but act only for purposes of real and lasting utility. That usefulness, however, could not be insured unless with the exercise of an impartial spirit were coupled the consciousness of power calculated to give effect to our opinions. The same channels of communication, which gave so gratifying an announcement with respect to the intentions of the Government, likewise gave publicity to a speech, expressed with great power, eloquence, and brilliancy, but showing at the same time a degree of partiality and enthusiasm which, though creditable to the heart, was not equally suggestive of confidence in the judgment. Seeing that the speech in question proceeded from the bosom of the Cabinet, and from one who justly enjoyed a high reputation in this country, he could not but apprehend that the intention of the Cabinet at large might be eventually impressed with views which might prove

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  dangerous if introduced into the negotiations, should any negotiations take place. He trusted—and indeed was unwilling to doubt—that Her Majesty's Government would establish their claim to the confidence of the country by their conduct during the recess. He could not doubt that they would feel in its full force that constitutional responsibility which necessarily at all times weighed upon the Ministers of the Crown and certainly not less under present circumstances than at any preceding time. He trusted, finally, that whenever their Lordships should again meet in that House they would have the happiness of congratulating the Government upon having surmounted the difficult circumstances in which they were placed, whatever they might be—whether those difficulties should be met by a vigilant quiescence, if he might so express himself, or by participating in the negotiations that might eventually take place. In either case he hoped they might deserve the approval and continued confidence of the country. He did not wish to intrude unnecessarily upon their Lordships, but he was perhaps entitled to indulgence, when it was considered that on a former occasion, having pledged himself to bring forward the whole subject of the Italian correspondence, he had abstained from doing so in consequence of the new circumstances that had arisen, and on account of which their Lordships had to all appearance agreed with him in the opinion that much inconvenience would arise from a premature discussion of its merits. There was an obvious connection between the remarks he had just addressed to their Lordships and the Bill before the House. It was impossible to separate anything that concerned the defences of the country from that which involved the consideration of negotiating with foreign Powers under the present difficult circumstances of the country. He repeated that it was not his intention to throw any difficulties in the way of the passing of the present Bill; but he entertained a sanguine hope that in a future year, he hoped the next year, the subject of the militia would receive a fuller and more careful examination, and that the result of such discussion would be a return to the old and constitutional mode of dealing with that ancient part of our national forces.
  LORD KINGSDOWNsaid, he wished to enforce the advice of the noble Lord who had just sat down without intending to follow him through the topics on which he
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  had addressed their Lordships, and would confine himself to the subject of the present Bill. As far as the measure before their Lordships operated at all it was likely to operate beneficially. But his firm conviction, and that of every man who had carefully considered the subject, was that the present and all other Bills for the improvement of the militia would be fruitless unless the people of this country were content once more to recognize the obligation incumbent on every man in a free State—namely, to come forward not only with his purse but with his person, when it was essential, for the defence of his country. Until comparatively of late years that was the principle that had been invariably recognized in this country, and was still adopted in every other country. We had tried the system of bounties in the army, the navy, and the militia; and with what result? why, the result was this—that those who had enlisted before the additional bounty was given were disgusted and dissatisfied, because they thought they received less than they ought. In aggravation of this, the bounty had totally and entirely failed in raising the required number of men. The Government had lowered the standard and had increased the bounties; and what was now the state of things? The regular forces were very imperfectly supplied, the militia was not at half its complement of men, small as that was compared with the population and with the exigencies of the country: and, with respect to the navy, the best ships and the best officers were in port for weeks and months unable to obtain a crew of approved competence. Was that a state of things that ought to continue, when we looked to the condition of neighbouring States? He did not rest the importance of this question in the least degree upon the particular position of affairs on the opposite side of the Channel, still less upon the character of that distinguished man who presided over the destinies of France. On the contrary, he should regard a change of dinasty in that country as dangerous to its peace and prosperity. Whatever the Emperor's conduct to other nations had been, he felt bound to say, unpopular as it might be, that his conduct to this country had been characterized by loyalty, wisdom, and magnanimity. It had been said that our ships would swarm with seamen, and that our regiments would overflow with soldiers in case of invasion. He hoped it might be so; but, except for the purpose of showing the spirit of Eng-

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  lishmen was not extinct among us, it would be utterly useless. How could men undisciplined, unarmed, and unofficered, meet in fair conflict the troops to which they would he opposed? Look to the state of France, with an army of 500,000 on a peace establishment, and the means of calling a reserve force, at least as large, into active service. France had a navy nearly equal to our own, and the power of calling upon every seaman in the mercantile marine to man her fleet. Let the people but be convinced that it was essential to the protection of the country, to the maintenance of its position among the nations, and of the national independence, that they should submit to—he would not call it a conscription—but to anylegal enactment that might be applied with the view to raise a force for the defence of the country within its own territories, and he did not believe that any difficulty would be felt in obtaining the consent of Parliament to the necessary measures. But looking to the present state of things, at least let Parliament be consistent. Let them not vote men whom they could not raise, build ships which they could not man, and provoke hostilities which they had no adequate means of repelling. He believed if Members of that and the other House of Parliament—and he spoke of Members on both sides—would appeal to the people of this country, and honestly lay before them the position in which we stood, and the impossibility of raising the forces necessary for our protection unless the system were changed, that they would readily and cheerfully respond. He owed an apology to their Lordships in adverting, on the eve of the recess, to a question of such importance; but he felt so strongly the deep interest attaching to it in connection with the maintenance of the national security and independence that he had ventured to engage their Lordships' attention for a few moments. He was afraid that he himself could do but little to commend this matter to the serious consideration of their Lordships and the public; but he was strongly convinced of the absolute necessity of familiarizing the minds of the people with it; and now that Parliament was about to rise he hoped in the interval that the great question would be fairly submitted to the people, through the medium of the press, whether or not they were willing to make those personal sacrifices which were essential to the maintenance of the defences and the independence of the country.
  THE EARL OF RIPONsaid, he quite
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  agreed with the noble and learned Lord, in thinking that the changes and improvements which had taken place of late years in the implements of war were such as to deserve the serious attention of the Government and the country, and to require that corresponding changes should be made in that system of national defence with which we had hitherto been satisfied. He could assure the noble and learned Lord and the House, that the attention of Her Majesty's Government was earnestly and anxiously devoted to this subject; but in listening to the noble and learned Lord, he could not help being struck with the impression that the noble and learned Lord and the noble Viscount who preceded him appeared to speak as if we were at the present moment in a state of war and not of peace; for the measures they recommended for adoption were those to which recourse had been hitherto had in this country when we were actually at war. The whole question of the national defences. was engaging the deep attention of the Government, and during the recess his right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for War, who had already taken measures for having various portions of the question effectually tested, would continue to make it the subject of earnest consideration. He (the Earl of Ripon) thought the principle of raising men for service in the militia by ballot was one of great importance, but one that ought to be retained by the Executive Government as an engine in times of emergency, seeing it could not be denied that it exercised a great amount of violence on the people at large whenever circumstances rendered it necessary to resort to it. The noble Viscount said, he did not desire a conscription:—but if they adopted the ballot for the militia, and embodied the militia regiments, it amounted to much the same thing as a conscription. He regretted that the noble and learned Lord (Lord Kingsdown) was not present a few evenings ago when the Militia Ballot Suspension Bill was under consideration, because he would have heard the opinions expressed by a noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough), not then in his place, who was no mean authority on the subject, and whose general opinion in many respects certainly coincided with those of the noble and learned Lord. The noble Earl said, he did not wish to oppose that Bill, and he went so far as to add that he doubted the advisability of the present system of embodying' a certain num-

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  ber of regiments of militia annually, on the ground that it was a departure from the original idea of a militia force; in this respect, among others, that it took men away from their families and their industrial pursuits for long periods of time, instead of for those brief intervals in which the militia were actually called out for training, and in which the ordinary occupations of the men suffered no very serious interruption while they were temporarily engaged in serving their country. All those were questions which required serious consideration; and he could assure the House that the Government were as anxious as the noble and learned Lord or the noble Viscount could be, that the naval and military affairs of this country should be in such a position that it might be able to maintain its honour and credit among the nations of Europe He could assure their Lordships that when they re-assembled after the recess, they would have no cause of complaint that the interests of the country had been neglected by Her Majesty's Government.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the whole House Tomorrow.

RETIRING BISHOPS.
VISCOUNT DUNGANNONasked the Lord President of the Council, whether any Allowance has been made to Dr. Hinds, the retired Bishop of Norwich, out of the Funds at the Disposal of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners; and whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce any Bill next Session to secure a Provision to Bishops relinquishing their Sees, in consequence of old Age or Infirmity?
EARL GRANVILLEwas understood to say, that he was not aware whether any allowance had been made to the retired Bishop of Norwich. With regard to the introduction of a Bill next Session on the subject, he was not prepared to give any assurance that the Government would have framed a measure of the kind alluded to. The case of Dr. Hinds was no doubt one of great hardship; but the whole subject, though one of great importance was surrounded with difficulties. He could assure the noble Lord that between this and the next Session of Parliament the subject would receive the serious consideration of Her Majesty's Government.

PRIVATE BILLS.—TACUMSHIN EMBANKMENT BILL.

  SPECIAL MOTION. SECOND READING.
  Moved,
  "That inasmuch as the Completion of the Works authorized by the 'Tacumshin Embankment Act, 1864,' (the Time for which is extended by the said Bill for One Year,) was prevented by tempestuous Weather, the uncertain shifting of Sands, and other natural and unavoidable Causes wholly unexpected, until a late Period in the Session, which occasioned this Bill to be introduced out of Time, and consequently to be too late to be read a Second Time within the Period limited by the Order which requires all Private Bills to be read a Second Time on or before the 2nd Day of August, it is reasonable that the said Order be dispensed with in relation to the said Bill."
  Agreed to.
  Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 considered (according to Order), and dispensed with; and Bill read 2a, and committed forthwith.
  Bill reported, without Amendment.
  House adjourned at a Quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.