Lords Sitting of 15 April 1859

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Pauper Maintenance Act Continuance; Local Government Supplemental; Confirmation and Probate Act (1858) Amendment; Naval Medical Supplemental Fund Society Annuities, &c. Act Continuance; Consolidated Fund (Appropriation); Exchequer Bills (£13,277,400).
3a Glasgow Public Parks and Galleries of Art; Superannuation; Combination of Workmen.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT SUPPLEMENTAL BILL.

  SECOND READING—QUESTION OF FORM.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONmoved the second reading of the Bill.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETobjected to the Bill being read a second time, on the ground that it was not among the Orders of the Day.
  LORD REDESDALEexplained that the object of the Bill was only to confirm certain provisional Orders.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETobjected to confirming these Orders without knowing what they were.
  EARL STANHOPEagreed with the noble Duke, and suggested that the Orders might wait for confirmation until the assembling of the new Parliament.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, that the Orders were set out in a schedule of the Bill, and therefore if there was any objection to any of them it might be raised in Committee. There could be no reason why the Bill should not be read a second time.
  Bill read 2a (on Motion) committed to a Committee of the whole House on Monday next; and Standing Orders Nos. 37, and 38, to be considered, in order to their being dispensed with.

RED SEA AND INDIA TELEGRAPH COMPANY (No. 2) BILL.

  THIRD READING. BILL WITHDRAWN.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, he wished to say a few words with respect to the peculiar character and circumstances of this Bill, which partook more of the character of a public than a private measure, and ought not to be passed without due consideration by their Lordships. Being an unopposed Bill, the Chairman of the Committee to which it was referred was merely bound to see that there was nothing irregular or informal in its provisions, and had no control whatever over the policy of the measure. The Bill referred to an agreement between the Company and the Treasury; but that agreement was not recited in the Bill, as it certainly ought to have been, and their Lordships were quite ignorant of its terms up till yesterday, when certain papers relating to contracts of this description were laid before them. This agreement was a direct violation of the
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  principle on which the noble Earl opposite had admitted that all such contracts ought to be framed. The Treasury engaged to give the Company a guarantee of 4½ per cent on a capital of £800,000, to be expended in establishing telegraphic communication between Suez and Kurrachee; and, moreover, the undertaking was to take effect even although the work should never be completed, or, if completed, should prove a failure. If the wire should be laid down and then lost, the Treasury would be bound to refund to the Company the whole of the money expended, together with the interest from the time of signing the contract. It was not even conditional on the Company, making an earnest endeavour to complete the line. Thus, any merchant who subscribed his money would be entitled to receive his interest for fifty years, irrespective of any advantage imparted to the public. The Government could borrow money at 3½ per cent, and it would be much better if they made the line themselves, than submit to such conditions. He thought the contract was of so monstrous a nature that the House ought to pause before they lent their sanction to a Bill intended to carry it into operation. Other portions of the measure were extremely objectionable. The agreement with the Treasury merely extended to the making of a line of telegraph from Suez to Kurrachee, but the Bill gave the Company the power of also laying down one or more submarine cables between Alexandria and other places in Egypt and India, viâ the Red Sea, as well as of completing the communication by connecting it, if desirable, with Great Britain. As this would probably be the main, if not the only, line of telegraph between this country and India, power ought to be reserved to the Government, if it thought fit, at the end of a certain period to take possession of the wires upon a fair valuation, and after paying a reasonable amount of compensation to the Company.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, that he should be happy to give any explanation upon the subject in his power. With regard to the measure being treated as a private Bill, he thought that was no disadvantage, for private Bills were discussed much more fully in Committee than public Acts. At any rate, if the Government had erred in treating it as a private Bill, they had erred in very good company, for the Atlantic Telegraph, which was a precisely analogous Bill, had been dealt with

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  as a private Bill by the late Government. The establishment of a system of electric communication between this country and India was considered by Her Majesty's Government to be a matter of the highest national importance; and besides, that Company, in dealing with the Government, possessed unquestionably a considerable advantage, from the fact that they had obtained from the Turkish Government the exclusive right of laying down an electric telegraph line between Suez and Kurrachee. But the noble Lord had misrepresented the nature of the contract when he stated that the Government had given an absolute guarantee of 4½ per cent on £800,000, whether the line was constructed or not, and when he supposed that the shareholders had nothing to do but to subscribe a sum of £800,000, in order to obtain from the Government a revenue of 4½ per cent upon that sum. The Government guarantee would extend not to the amount that might be subscribed, but to the amount that should have been actually expended in laying down the line. He had further to observe, that by a clause in the contract the Government would not be bound to pay the guaranteed interest until the contractors had given up the line into the hands of the Company in efficient working order. He admitted, that the terms obtained by the Company were to some extent of an exceptional character, and were far more favourable than the terms which it was usual for Governments to sanction; but Her Majesty's Ministers thought that the peculiar circumstances of the case called for a peculiar treatment, and they had been most anxious to enter into an immediate agreement with the only Company which had the power of laying down an electric telegraph line by the Red Sea route.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that no line of electric communication could be more important than that which the promoters of the present Bill proposed to effect. Those gentlemen informed him last year, when he held the office of President of the Board of Control, that they had received a firman from the Turkish Government investing them with certain powers, and binding them to certain conditions in the construction of the work. But some of those conditions were of a character to which it would not, in his opinion, be prudent for the Government of this country to agree. One of these, for instance, required that there should be a station at Jeddah. But
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  he objected to Jeddah, and, indeed, to a number of other places named in the firman as the sites of stations, on the ground that no sufficient security would there be found for the agents of the Company and the works to be committed to their charge. The value of the line would be far less of a commercial than of a political and military character, and he thought that it should be so laid down that its working would not be liable to be interrupted by sudden attacks from pirates and marauders. He also told the representatives of the Company that they could not take a single step without the constant protection and intervention of Her Majesty's Government, and that it was therefore absolutely necessary the Government should have an overruling influence in the direction of the whole of their proceedings. Their object —the commercial object—was one of comparatively little importance; it could not matter much to the public whether or not they obtained a guaranteed interest of 4 per cent on their outlay—he believed they had at first only asked for 4 per cent; but it was extremely desirable in a political and a military point of view that an electric telegraph line should be laid down between Suez and Kurrachee. Under all the circumstances of the case he thought it better that the present Bill should be rejected altogether, and that Her Majesty's Government should have an opportunity of again considering the whole subject.
  LORD WODEHOUSEsaid, it would appear from the terms of the contract that even if the Company should fail to lay down a line to Aden, Her Majesty's Government should repay them a certain sum for the outlay they might have incurred. It appeared to him, however, that the Government could hardly have meant to give them such an unconditional guarantee, and that that permission must have been inserted in the agreement through some misapprehension of its real meaning. It was no doubt extremely desirable that we should as soon as possible have an electric communication with India; but it should be remembered that even if that Bill were not then passed its further progress need not be postponed for any considerable time, because it could be taken up in the next Session of Parliament at the stage which it had then reached. The dissolution of Parliament would afford an opportunity of reconsidering the measure and reconciling its provisions with the requirements of the Government.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, that the Company could not by any means act wholly independently of the Government, for there was a clause in the agreement which provided that the Lords of the Treasury should be empowered to nominate two persons, who would have the right of controlling all the proceedings of the directors. He hoped their Lordships would not then refuse to give their assent to the Bill. He had been informed by the Secretary of the Company that two ships had been sent out by them with 1,800 miles of the cable; that the line would probably be laid down between Suez and Aden by the end of the present month, and that they hoped it would be laid down between Aden and Kurrachee by the end of this year. Under these circumstances he trusted that their Lordships would give effect to the agreement by passing the Bill.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETwished to know why this Bill could not, like all the other private Bills be suspended until the meeting of the next Parliament. He should be sorry to interfere with the formation of so important a line of communication as that projected by the promoters of this Bill, but considering the objections stated by the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Ellenborough), who understood this subject thoroughly, he thought that this Bill might very fairly be made to follow the course of the other private Bills which had been suspended.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he had looked at the clause to which the noble Earl had adverted, and he found that no provision was made with reference to the military and political part of the question. He also found that it was provided, in cage of a dispute as to the management of the undertaking between the Commissioners appointed by the Treasury and the Company, that one of the Superior Courts of common law at Westminster might ultimately be appealed to, and thus a court of common law would have the power of deciding upon a purely military and political question on which the Government ought to form its own opinion.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the House was placed in some difficulty. A contract had been entered into, and if it were not fulfilled, there would, to a certain extent, be a breach of faith. But the objections which had been raised to the Bill on both sides of the House, as well as the observations of the noble Earl himself, the First Lord of the Treasury, showed the desirableness of
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  their Lordships adopting the course suggested by the noble Duke. The effect would be simply to postpone the Bill for some two months, and no hardship would accrue either to the Company or the public by that delay.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, he could not concur in the opinion of the noble Earl opposite that it was a matter of necessity and duty that Parliament should confirm an agreement made by the Treasury. The guarantee given to the Company was merely provisional. He concurred with his noble Friends as to the desirableness of postponing the further consideration of the Bill, many of the provisions of which were objectionable, till the meeting of the next Parliament.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, there could be no doubt that the postponement of a Bill of that importance would be a serious matter, not only as regarded the Company, but also as regarded the public interests involved in the speedy completion of the undertaking. But after the objections which had been urged to the immediate passing of the measure he did not wish to take upon himself the responsibility of pressing the Motion for the third reading to a division, and thereby running the risk of bringing about the complete defeat of a Bill which he was sure none of their Lordships were anxious wholly to reject. He would, therefore, consent that the Motion should be withdrawn for the present, so that on the assembling of the new Parliament the measure could be proceeded with at the stage at which it then stood.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  Consideration of Standing Order No. 179 sec. 6 discharged.

INDIA.—EDUCATION.

  ADDRESS FOR RETURNS.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLrose to call the attention of the House to a Letter from the Earl of Ellenborough, President of the Board of Control, to the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the East India Company, dated April 28, 1858; and to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Copy of the Regulations and Conditions under which Grants in aid of Schools are afforded by the Government of India; also, return of the Number of Schools which have received such Grants, distinguishing those which were under Native Management and those which are con-

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  ducted by Europeans; and of the Amount of such Grants in each case. The noble Duke said that when some weeks ago he was obliged to postpone his Motion, the noble Earl below intimated that it would be better if he would postpone it altogether, inasmuch as the discussion might probably give rise to some trouble in India. But the noble Earl had quite misapprehended his intention. In addressing their Lordships upon that occasion he had no wish to express, far less to discuss, any extreme opinions with regard to the relations which ought to be maintained between the British Government and the Native religions of India; but at the same time he wished to guard himself against the supposition that he conceived that was a subject which might not be legitimately taken into consideration by their Lordships. He saw upon the paper a Motion from his noble Friend behind him with respect to some disturbances at Travancore, which, if it were brought forward, might give rise to a full discussion of these delicate questions. But he would beg to remind his noble Friend and the House that there was at present a free press in India, and that press discussed questions of that kind with a zeal—he believed he might say with an acrimony—which was almost unknown to the press of this country; and he thought it beyond doubt that any discussion which might take place in that House would have a calming rather than an irritating effect in reference to these delicate subjects. He proposed, however, in the present instance to confine his observations to a single point, which he believed to be one of very considerable importance. Within a very few days of the close of the last session of Parliament the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) had laid upon the table of the House a letter which he had some time previously addressed to the Court of Directors; and that letter was accompanied by and partly founded upon a paper drawn up by Sir George Clerk, stating his views upon the subject of education in India. If the letter of the noble Earl were to be considered even as his individual and private opinion it would still be interesting to this House, because the individual opinion of the noble Earl upon any subject connected with India could never be a matter of indifference to their Lordships, and its interest was greatly enhanced by what he was bound to say was the great force and vigour of the noble Earl's language, and its effect would be very great among those
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  who were opposed to Christian education in India. It was to be remembered, too, that Sir George Clerk was even now high in office in the Indian Council, and the House were altogether ignorant of the effect the letter might have produced upon the old Court of Directors or the new Indian Council, or whether in any degree the suggestions contained in it had been carried into effect. The nature of the despatch constituted it a document of very serious importance, for, as he understood it, it was nothing less than a tender of advice, to rescind altogether the policy adopted in the well-known Educational Dispatch of 1854. The import of that dispatch he thought he could explain in a few words. It was to adopt in India the policy of grants in aid, as put in practice in this country. That was rather a change in the mode of extending education than a change in the system itself, for in the plan of education he believed there was no change whatever. That system of grants in aid, he need hardly explain to their Lordships, consisted in giving a certain sum for the support of a school in proportion to the sum that was subscribed by private parties. He might mention to the House one or two of the main reasons that induced the Government to adopt this system. In the first place, it was clear that if ever education wore to be extended to the masses, the principle of the grants in aid was decidedly the cheapest for doing so. Previous to its adoption the plan of education adopted in India had been to raise schools and colleges, and to pay the schoolmasters at its own cost and expense. He need hardly say that it was absolutely impossible that the system of education could be widely extended among the masses on such a plan as that. Another reason was that it was the least aggressive in form of any that could be devised, for it had at least the appearance of co-operation on the part of the Natives. He perfectly agreed in the principle laid down by the noble Earl in the course of his despatch, that there ought not to be so much as the appearance of force applied to the Natives to induce them to support schools, but we ought rather to appear to be assisting them in accomplishing what they themselves desired than to forcing upon them something which was to benefit us. Now, the principle of grants in aid exactly met and corresponded to that principle, for it applied to those schools only where private subscriptions were raised for their support; while it made those who did subscribe take

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  part, as it were, in the work, and gave them the impression that they were contributing largely to their education. But there was another reason which induced Parliament and the Government to adopt this system, which had at least as much force as any other, and it was that in India, as in England, it was the principle which afforded the best and easiest solution of the difficulties in respect of religion which beset all schemes of education in both countries. The missionaries, on the one hand, and the advocates of secular instruction on the other, were agreed that grants in aid might be given to Christian, Mahomedan, and Hindoo schools, on the ground of the secular education that was given in each, provided only that the grants were given to all schools indifferently. It had come to this, that officers of the highest distinction — men whose names were included in the Vote of Thanks in their Lordships' House last night, Mr. Montgomery and others—agreed that tin's system of grants in aid afforded the only chance of extending education with safety and without interfering with the religious prejudices of the Natives. The Marquis of Dalhousie also came to that conclusion as far back as the year 1853, when he announced in a despatch that the time had come, in his opinion, for departing from the old traditionary policy of the Company, in this respect, and when grants in aid might be voted to missionary schools. In the same year a Committee was appointed in this House to inquire into the state of India preparatory to the passing of the Bill for the Indian Government, which was afterwards carried out under Lord Aberdeen's Government. He saw many members of that Committee now present, and he fearlessly appealed to them whether there was not a more general concurrence of the witnesses on this point than on any other on which they were examined? He would now come to the objections of the noble Earl opposite. First of all, his Lordship thought that the system had practically failed; next, that it violated the principle of religious neutrality; and thirdly, he objected on the ground of expense. Now, with regard to the objection of failure, he might remark that the despatch of the noble Earl opposite was dated in April, 185S; that the Educational Letter of Sir Charles Wood was dated only in July, 1854; and when their Lordships considered that some time must have elapsed before that Letter was received in India, and prepara-
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  tions made for carrying it into effect, they would see that the system could not have been in operation more than 2½ years, and it was impossible that any sensible effects of the system, either as to its success or failure, could have arisen in that time. As to the objection that this system violated the principle of religious neutrality, he gathered from the despatch of the noble Earl that he did not mean to repeal the principle of grants in aid, except so far as related to the operations of the missionary societies.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: I distinctly said so.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLadmitted that, though he believed that some of the paragraphs in that despatch would admit of a wider application than to missionary schools. But he joined issue with the noble Earl, and contended that to exclude missionary schools from the grants in aid would be equally a violation of religious neutrality. The noble Earl would allow the Government to endow Mahomedan schools, though they might be established for the purpose of the conversion of Hindoos to Mahomedanism, or to endow Hindoo schools, though intended for the purpose of the conversion of Mahomedans to Hindooism. The noble Earl would endow all the different sects of these religions, and the only schools he would exclude were the missionary schools, simply because they were connected with Christianity. He (the Duke of Argyll) said this was a violation of that very principle of neutrality on which the system of grants in aid was founded. It was said that the other schools gave a secular education; but so did the missionary schools offer the best, and in many places the only secular education that the Natives could procure. He heard only yesterday from one of the most distinguished men to whom they yesterday voted their Thanks that immediately before his departure from Lucknow he had visited a large missionary school, where upwards of 400 pupils were receiving instruction, many of them youths of the highest caste, who were examined in various branches of knowledge, and no objection whatever appeared to be made that it was a missionary school; and it was added that, merely as secular schools, the missionary schools were the best, and that the Government schools had no chance with them whatever. That was the opinion of Mr. Montgomery; he believed it was also the opinion of Sir John Lawrence and others,

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  and the testimony of all the principal witnesses examined before their Lordships' Committee was the same. The noble Earl had lately sent him a pamphlet on this subject, written by Mr. Norton. He believed that gentleman was the brother of a Mr. Norton, in the Madras Presidency, who had written several works on India. He stated that the missionary school there was the only one that could be supported by the Government, on account of the secular instruction it gave; and that the writer had been chairman of a Committee of Natives who had freely voted a portion of their funds to a missionary school. The truth was that the education in the missionary schools was, to a very large extent, wholly secular, and the pupils were not compelled to learn the doctrines of Christianity. The other objection of the noble Earl was that the system was leading to a large increase of expenditure. Now, certainly when the system was first established the cost in the first year was £100,000; in the course of two years and a half it had increased to £200,000; and at first, he confessed, he was afraid a sufficient check had not been established, but further information satisfied him that that was not the case. A large portion of the expense related to the establishment of the system, and would remain the same whether the schools were few or many. And then it was not to be forgotten that if education was to be extended over India £200,000 was not an alarming sum. If it were thought too large there were other modes by which they could limit the expenditure without stopping it altogether. At present the Government allowance was one-half; it might be reduced to one-third, or even to one-fifth. They had lately been told, in eloquent language, that now the works of war had ceased the works of peace must begin. He hoped the new system would not be inaugurated by cutting down the means of education. The people of India during the last few years had, he believed, been obedient and loyal in proportion to their education and enlightenment. He could not believe that his noble Friend (the Earl of Ellenborough) could be so adverse to the cause of education, as in words at least he represented himself to be; for he believed that there was no man who could appreciate the beneficial effects of education more than the noble Earl, whether in an Englishman or in a Hindoo. The noble Earl the other night quoted, in the discussion on the Loan Bill, a remarka-
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  ble letter written by a Native gentleman, and he quoted it with approbation and admiration. The letter was written in admirable language; its composition would have done no discredit even to the noble Earl himself; and the object of the letter being to represent what he thought to be injurious to our dominion in India, and to show, in the opinion of all educated Natives that a fall in our dominion in India would be a great national misfortune. Amid the circumstances of the late rebellion there were no more remarkable indications of fidelity to our cause, and of a desire to assist us, than by the two only great Native States of the Nizam and Nepaul, both of which had the benefit of educated men, knowing a great deal of English literature and the state of society in Europe. During the course of the mutiny he saw a letter from the Prime Minister of the Nizam that would have done credit to an English gentleman; and to the exertions of those States was in a great measure due the pacification of the southern portion of our Indian empire. The noble Earl must have appreciated the advantages that were conferred upon us by the influence of the Minister of Hyderabad; and he believed it had been the case in other directions, and that wherever schools had been established and education had taken firm root, there had been a desire on the part of the Natives to support our power and to impede the success of the mutiny. There existed among some men a fanciful and sentimental admiration of the system that existed in India prior to our administration; and in the memorandum of Sir George Clerk it was contended that arrogance and pretentiousness were ruinous to the consolidation of our power in India. The noble Earl had said that if we left India to-morrow we should leave none of those marks of our sway such as had been left of the empire of the Mogul. When the railway system was completed, the exaggeration would be greater still; but whatever might have been the character of the Mahomedans at that time, the Natives had no upward tendency, and there were no men of great character or of high ability. The Natives of India must have seen that if our dominion failed in India, they would have fallen under the dominion of men in whom ferocity and treachery would be the distinguishing characteristics, and he could not but doubt that the interests of the Natives were bound up with those of England. Upon these grounds, he hoped that whatever mea-

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  sures were adopted with regard to economy in other branches of expenditure, no doubt would be cast on the duty as far as we could to educate the Natives of India, or on the equity and justice of the principle of grants in aid. The noble Earl at the head of the Government had kindly informed him that a despatch had lately been written and sent out by the Secretary of State for India to the Government in India upon this subject, and that it would be desirable to supplement the returns for which he moved by that despatch. He was much obliged to the noble Earl, and he was sure the information would be useful to the House. He could not doubt for a moment that in that despatch there was no hesitation in admitting the justice of the principle, and of the duty which lay on us, so far as we could with due regard to their religious prejudices, to extend education among the Natives.
  His Grace concluded by moving—
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for,
  "Copy of the Regulations and Conditions under which Grants in aid of Schools are afforded by the Government of India: And also,
  "Return of the Number of Schools which have received such Grants, distinguishing those which are under Native Management and those which are conducted by Europeans; and of the Amount of such Grants in each Case."
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: My Lords, I expressed some time ago my deep sense of the danger of this subject being discussed. I retain that opinion. The noble Duke wishes to raise a discussion on secular education in India. I will not make myself auxiliary to it, for it might be that my remarks would afford some pabulum to other speeches. I will not do so, and if I had not determined before I heard the last sentence of the noble Duke to adhere to that Resolution, that sentence would make it absolutely necessary to do so. The noble Duke informs me of what I was not aware before, that a despatch has been recently sent out to India on this subject. I will not, therefore, in the smallest degree interfere in the question. This only will I do—I will place before your Lordships the last authorities with regard to the treatment of the people of India in regard of their religion. But before doing so, since the noble Duke has expressed approbation of the Native gentleman from whose letter I read an extract the other night, I will take the liberty of
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  reading another extract from the same letter. He adverts to the letters of Sir John Lawrence and Colonel Edwardes, to which the noble Duke refers. Those letters should never have been made public in India, nor do I know that they ever were made public by the Government. I understand that privately one, perhaps both, were sent to this country and published. I will now read a further extract from this letter, and then the noble Duke will see how far it goes in support of his views. What this Native gentleman says on that subject is this:—
  "I have lately been reading Sir John Lawrence's letter explaining his views, and those of Colonel Edwardes, about Christianizing India. Their publication establishes the fact, that the complaints of the Natives regarding the attempt of the Government or its officials on their religion were not groundless.
  And at the conclusion is this passage:—
  "We fear that men of Colonel Edwardes' opinion, of whom there is no scarcity even in influential quarters, may yet deeply drench the plains of India with human blood."
  That is the opinion of the Native gentleman who is spoken of in such high terms by the noble Duke. I will just state the circumstances, which, perhaps, the noble Duke has forgotten, under which this letter of mine, which is the chief document noticed by the noble Duke, first appeared. It was, no doubt, at the end of the Session. It was communicated to me that a Motion had been made in the House of Commons for documents as to the further progress of education under the letter of 1854, and that the terms of the Motion did not include this letter and the memorandum of Sir George Clerk. It was thought desirable that, to complete the whole case, this letter should be made public. I thought so too, and on that ground alone it was published. I then found, to my surprise, that the letter of the 8th of April had never been communicated to the Court of Directors, but had remained in the portfolio of the chairman and deputy-chairman. That letter was the commencement of a correspondence; it was not a declaration of a determination to act in any manner; it was intended to express my opinion—what I might have said in a confidential verbal communication, but which I thought better to state officially in that formal manner. The course of proceeding should have been for the chairman and deputy-chairman to lay it before the Court of Directors for their consideration, and, if they thought fit, to make some proposition upon

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  it. The Court might have authorized some letter, either entirely agreeing, or in some particulars disagreeing with my opinions. The correspondence might have continued for a considerable period of time. I think it absolutely necessary to recall to your Lordships' minds, and not only to your Lordships, but to the people of this country and the people of India, the words of the Queen's Proclamation:—
  "We do strictly charge and enjoin all those who may be in authority under us, that they abstain from all interference with the religious belief or worship of any of our subjects, on pain of our highest displeasure."
  Those are the words of Her Majesty's Proclamation. The last intimation of the opinion of the Court of Directors was made a fortnight before that letter of mine was written. The circumstances were these: —Before I came into office, it was communicated to me that a very objectionable letter had been written by Mr. Chapman, the superintendent of Education in Berar; and in reply to a question which I put to the then Government, I was assured that inquiry should be made. Soon afterwards I came into office; I at once communicated with the East India Company upon the subject, and the result was this letter which I hold in my hand, and from which I will read some extracts, showing how different was the state of things in Berar from that represented by the noble Duke as existing in other parts of India. And it must be remembered that there is no part of India in which we might have expected that there would be a more thorough appreciation of the disinterestedness of our motives and of our general view of government than in the province of Berar, which we have held for a hundred years, and which is occupied to a great extent by English gentlemen carrying on business there. This, however, is what Mr. Chapman says as to the state of things there:—
  "I am now able to confirm, from my own experience, the existence of the strongest prejudices against the educational measures on the part of the people,—prejudices that are only strengthened by any attempt to reason against them. 'How are we to believe,' said one set of villagers to me, that Government will not interfere with our religion, when we see the missionaries who are paid by them? and from this ground I could not drive them?"
  Mr. Chapman had the great indiscretion to tell the people that it was 'the order' of the Government that the people should educate their children. The Letter of the Court of Directors continues:—
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  "It is our intention that it shall be entirely optional with the Natives whether they will avail the themselves of the facilities of education which we afford to them or not. It is the duty of all public servants to carry out with good faith the declared intentions of the Government under which they act. There is no safety for a State if over-zealous individuals be permitted, in the execution of the duties intrusted to them, to substitute their own policy for that of the Government. A Government must not be supposed to say one thing and mean another."
  It then refers to the proceedings of Mr. Reid elsewhere, and afterwards goes on:—
  "In the above passages, and in many other parts of Mr. Chapman's reports, there are statements of the most important character with respect to the apprehensions entertained by the Natives of interference with their religion on the part of the Government in their educational proceedings. The Government will adhere with good faith to its ancient policy of perfect neutrality in matters affecting the religion of the people of India; and we most earnestly caution all those in authority under it not to afford by their conduct the least colour to the suspicion that that policy has undergone, or will undergo, any change. It is perilous for men in authority to do as individuals that which they officially condemn. The real intention of the Government will be inferred from their acts, and they may unwittingly expose it to the greatest of all dangers, that of being regarded with general distrust by the people. We rely upon the honourable feelings which have ever distinguished our service for the furtherance of the views which we express. When the Government of India makes a promise to the people, there must not be afforded to them grounds for a doubt as to its fidelity to its word. You will take such measures as you may think fit for giving the fullest publicity to this Letter."
  So far as I am informed, and so far as I know, no measures whatever have at any time been taken for that purpose. I do not believe that that letter has been published by the Government in India. I am unwilling, as I have stated, to say anything generally with respect to this matter, but I must inform the noble Duke that I never at any time objected to grants in aid. What I object to is stated distinctly in the last paragraph but one of my Letter. I entertain the opinion there expressed as strongly as—in fact, more strongly than I did when. I wrote it; and its soundness has since been proved by the fact that in no province has more difficulty been experienced in suppressing the mutiny than in this one of Berar. What I said in that letter was:—
  "I feel satisfied that at the present moment no measure could be adopted more calculated to tranquillize the minds of the Natives, and to restore to us their confidence, than that of withholding the aid of Government from schools with which missionaries are connected."
  That is my distinct and deliberate opinion.

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  I will not enter further into the consideration of this matter. I will only say most solemnly that I feel absolutely convinced that unless your Lordships can re-establish in the Native mind the entire confidence that you will hereafter as formerly protect completely and absolutely their free enjoyment of their religion, and will abstain from all attempts to subvert it or to undermine it occultly or openly, all your endeavours to produce tranquillity in India, to improve the condition of the people, and to establish the firm Government which we all wish to see established there will be utterly futile and useless.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, that, so far from regarding this as an unfit subject for discussion in their Lordships' House, he thought that the noble Duke was entitled to the thanks of the country for bringing it forward. He was sure that if, as the noble Earl at the head of the Government had so eloquently expressed it the other night, it was our desire to promote the moral advancement of the people of India, that object could not in any way be more efficiently promoted than by the extension among them of a knowledge of the great truths of the Christian religion; and the irresistible plea of the noble Duke was that if the principle recommended in the letter of the noble Earl was acted upon its effect would be, not to establish a system of neutrality, but to proscribe the religion which we ourselves professed. If we were to hold India as a Christian nation, our institutions, habits, action and legislation must more or less operate, however insensibly, upon the minds and feelings of the Natives. Therefore, the rigid neutrality so stoutly contended for by the noble Earl, though, perhaps, very perfect in theory, was impossible in practice. The Proclamation of the Queen, properly understood, could be carried out in perfect consistency with the principles of Christianity; but if it were understood in any other sense we had repeatedly violated it, for we had introduced laws respecting marriage and inheritance which were perfectly inconsistent with either the Mahomedan or the Hindoo religion. He hoped that discussions like the present in Parliament would rouse the people of England more and more to a sense of their duty, to expand the blessings of Christian civilization to the millions of India. And while our Government ought to act in a wise, temperate, and conciliatory spirit, it was in-
  1790
  cumbent upon us, if we would gain the favour of Him whom we were about to thank for the success with which He had crowned our arms, to act towards India in a manner consistent with our Christian character.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, it is not my intention to prolong this debate. I rise only for the purpose of correcting what has been misunderstood by the noble Earl on the bench below me (the Earl of Ellenborough), and perhaps also by the noble Duke who has brought forward this motion, with reference to a despatch recently sent out to India on the important subject of education. My noble Friend (the Earl of Ellenborough) stated very truly that the Letter to which the noble Duke's Motion alludes was not acted upon in any way by the Chairman and Deputy-Chairman of the East India Company, nor submitted by them to the Court of Directors; and, in point of fact, from that time to this no action has been taken upon that Letter. It remains, therefore, simply as a record of my noble Friend's opinions. In the course of last June the Court of Directors did, however, tend out an order at which, under the circumstances of the case, your Lordships will not be surprised, directing that in matters of education, as in everything else, no new expenditure should be incurred, no additional outlay made, without full communication with the Government at home; and that it was necessary that the most careful economy should he observed in every branch and department of the public service in India. Further than that no instructions have been issued on the subject of education; and the noble Duke is mistaken if he supposes that the despatch, of which I have suggested that he should move the production, requires the Government of India to lay down any rules for the guidance of its servants on the somewhat delicate topics which have been discussed to-night. The fact is that when my noble relative at the head of the India Department was appointed to his present office he felt extremely desirous to ascertain, as far as he could from documents in this country, what was the precise state of affairs in India in regard to the question of education, what were the materials in India for forming a conclusion as to the practical effect of the regulations established in 1854, and, among others, more especially what had been shown to be the result, one way or the other, of the system of grants in aid, particularly as applied to

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  missionary schools, in inducing the Natives to believe that there was any desire to interfere with their religious opinions, and whether that system had had any influence in producing the recent revolt. It is hardly necessary to say that the system having been inaugurated only in 1854, and never brought into operation till 1855, could not have made any very great progress or been expected to exhibit any very conclusive results, inasmuch as the greater part of the succeeding years have been occupied by the most dangerous rebellion. But, as far as it can be made out, the effect of those regulations has been, as stated by my noble Friend, exceedingly different in different parts of India. The case of the whole of India is by no means identical; and the system has been found to work extremely well in one district, and to have proved an entire failure in another. Therefore persons basing their observations on perfectly sound premises, as far as particular portions of the country are concerned, arrive at the most opposite conclusions. When the noble Duke first gave notice of his Motion I thought it necessary to look into the subject, and I took down some memoranda, with which, however, I will not trouble your Lordships. But with respect to the slight degree of reliance that can be placed on some of these statistical returns, I may mention that we have papers purporting to give the attendance at the Government schools in the various districts of Bengal, the North-West Provinces, Madras, and Bombay. I find that the schools, which are all Government schools, are divided into colleges, superior schools, and inferior schools. In Bengal the number of scholars, in attendance is 7,000; in the North-West Provinces, 6,000; in Madras, 1,759; and in Bombay, 23,846. Now the result presented by these figures is so extraordinary, that it is clear there must have been some confusion in the mode of arranging them; and I believe a comparison between the different provinces founded merely on these data would be totally fallacious. In various other points of view the information available is equally unsatisfactory. With respect, for example, to the grants in aid properly so called, the proportion which the schools receiving them bear to other schools is exceedingly different in different provinces. The fact in all probability is that in one district the missionary schools have excited great alarm as to the interference of the State with the religion of
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  the Native population, while in another district no such apprehension has existed; and these schools have acted as most valuable institutions, being almost the only schools to which Government aid is given. With regard, then, to the working of the regulations introduced in 1854, the information we possess is of the most imperfect description. For instance, in one province the grants in aid are put down at 8,900 rupees for the missionary schools, and 68,900 rupees for all other schools; while in Madras there are 28,000 rupees for the missionary schools and only 5,600 for all other schools. The despatch, therefore, for which I have recommended the noble Duke to move comprises on all these subjects, and in reference to all these various schools, the whole amount of information to be found in the archives in the Indian Office, and having embodied the whole of those facts, and pointed out in what degree they are unsatisfactory and deficient, the despatch calls upon the Indian Government to supply what is wanting, and to give its opinion both as to the practical operation of the existing system, as far as present experience of it goes, and as to the alterations which ought to be made in it. It also warns them in the meantime against any step that may entail increased expense or involve any innovation upon the established practice, until it has received the sanction of the Government at home. The noble Duke is in error if he thinks we have attempted to lay down any regulation binding upon the Government in India. We rather confined ourselves to requesting the Governor General to furnish us with additional information, and to afford us the benefit of his advice and experience as to the future course to be pursued on this question. Although the despatch was sent out only a few days ago it shall be laid before your Lordships, and taken in conjunction with the Report of the Inspector-General of Public Instruction in the Lower Provinces of Bengal for 1857–58, it will put the House in possession of the present state of education in India in a manner calculated to facilitate the future discussion of a subject on which we are now very imperfectly informed. If, therefore, the noble Duke will move for the two documents the titles of which I have placed in his hands, I believe he will find that practically they contain all the information he requires.
  After a few words in explanation from the Earl of ELLENBOROUGH,
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid he would withdraw his Motion, and accept the Papers suggested by the noble Earl at the head of the Government.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLthen moved,—
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for,
  Copy of Despatch from the Secretary of State far India in Council, to the Governor General in Council, dated April 1859, on the subject of Education in India. And also.
  Copy of General Report on Public Instruction in the Lower Provinces of the Bengal Presidency for 1857–58:
  Motion agreed to.
  House adjourned at a quarter-past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.