Lords Sitting of 10 May 1858

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Chelsea Hospital (Purchase of Lands); Franchise Prisons.
2a Chelsea Hospital and Waterworks Exchange of Lands.
3a Customs Duties (No. 2); Excise Duties; Exchequer Bonds (£2,000,000).

LORD CANNING'S PROCLAMATION.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY: I beg to give notice that on Friday next I will move a Resolution condemnatory of the publication of the late despatch to the Governor General of India. I will put on the Notice-paper to-morrow the precise form of words in which I mean to bring forward that Resolution.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: I propose, for the convenience of the noble Earl, and of your Lordships generally, that the despatch shall be laid on the table in extenso. I may as well, perhaps, take this opportunity of explaining to your Lordships the accident by which the House of Commons got the whole of that document, while a portion of it only was laid before your Lordships. It was originally intended that it should be communicated entire to both Houses, and the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Board of Control had taken a copy of it with him for the purpose of presenting it to the House of Commons. But at a later period of the day, and just before the House met, it was understood between my noble Friend at the head of the Government, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and myself, that extracts only should be given, as we considered it inexpedient that certain passages should be made public. But this arrangement was adopted too late, for the Secretary of the Board of Control had already laid the whole despatch before the House of Commons. I will also take this opportunity of removing a misunderstanding which appears to prevail on the other side of the House with respect to the communication of a copy of the despatch to a Gentleman in the House of Commons. The circumstances are these:—the noble Earl
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opposite (Earl Granville) having put a Question relative to this despatch, a copy in extenso was privately communicated to him; and as he would naturally communicate it to his friends, it was thought only fair that the hon. Gentleman who has also put a Question on the subject in the House of Commons should have a similar opportunity of making the document known to his friends. That is the whole history of that portion of the transaction. I believe the noble Earl must have got his copy first, because the same messenger took both copies, but went to the noble Earl's residence first; and as the hon. Gentleman in question had left the residence to which I had directed his copy, I understand he did not receive it until three or four hours after the noble Earl received his.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE: Has the noble Earl got in his office any other despatch on the subject to which the omitted paragraphs relate, addressed by him to the Governor General? If any such despatch exists will he have any objection to lay it on the table?
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: The noble Marquess will recollect it is the usage of this House to give notice of questions. I shall answer the question to-morrow.
EARL GREY: Will the noble Earl also state to-morrow whether all the information in his possession on the subject is before us; and whether there is any further explanation from Lord Canning bearing upon this Proclamation than that contained in the papers to be laid before us?
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: I regret to say there is not. Though that letter was sent on the 3rd of March by the Governor General to Sir James Outram at Cawnpore from that hour to this we have heard nothing from him on the subject.
EARL GREY: Then you have only received a draught of the Proclamation from the Governor General; you have not received the Proclamation as published?
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: We only gather incidentally from some of the papers that the Proclamation has ever been published at all. We have no information whatever from the Governor General on the subject. He has been silent for nearly a month with respect to that Proclamation.
EARL GRANVILLE: Within the last minute I have been informed by my noble

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Friend sitting near me (the Marquess of Lansdowne) that the right hon. Gentleman lately at the head of the Board of Control (Mr. Vernon Smith) received a private letter from the Governor General, in which he states that he thought this Proclamation required an explanatory despatch, but that owing to the great pressure of business he had not been able to send this explanation. I will not pledge myself that these are the exact words used, but that is the substance of the communication which I understand has been received.
THE EARL CF ELLENBOROUGH: I was quite unaware until now that any such communication had been received by the right hon. Gentleman.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: I cannot help observing that there has been considerable difference between the conduct of Mr. Vernon Smith and my noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Clarendon) who preceded me at the Foreign Office. Since I have had the honour of holding the post I now occupy my noble Friend opposite has sent to me all the private letters he has received bearing upon matters of public interest since his retirement from office, and I take this opportunity of thanking the noble Earl for having done so. A period of as much as two months may elapse before a change of Administration becomes known in our distant possessions in India, and if private letters arc received by a Minister who had relinquished office, containing information with reference to important points of foreign or Indian policy, I consider that it is the duty of the late Minister who receives such letters to communicate them to his successor.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEwas understood to say that the letter referred to was not received, as he understood, until after the document had been, as he thought, most improperly communicated to the public.
THE EARL OF DERBYasked, if the noble Marquess could state the exact date at which the letter was received?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, he did not know the exact date.
THE EARL OF DERBY: The Proclamation to which allusion has been made having appeared in The Times of Thursday last a question was put in the other House as to the conduct of the Government with reference to that Proclamation. I understand that a private communication has been received by Mr. Vernon Smith
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from Lord Canning, of which we have now heard for the first time, and which I should have supposed should have accompanied the draught of the Proclamation. I wish to know from the noble Marquess whether that letter, containing a promise of a subsequent explanation, was not received before five o'clock on Thursday evening? Am I to understand that that private letter had not been received until after the time at which—most improperly in the noble Marquess's opinion—the statement was made to the House of Commons? I wish to ask the noble Marquess whether he can state with full certainty that the letter in question was not received by Mr. Vernon Smith until five o'clock on Thursday last?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEreplied that, as he understood, the letter was not received until after the communication had been made to the House of Commons, and until after the Proclamation had been published in the newspapers.
Copy of the Letter from the Secret Committee of the Court of Directors of the East India Company to the Governor General of India in Council, dated the 19th of April, 1858, ordered to be laid before the House.
And the Copy of the said Letter was laid before the House at a later period of the evening.

ANNEXATION OF NATIVE STATES.

  MOTION POSTPONED.
  THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: I have a notice on the paper regarding the annexation of Indian territories; but inasmuch as there appears to be some connection between that subject and the letter of the Secret Committee of 19th April, 1858, I beg to postpone my Motion, lest it should be supposed I would sanction in any manner the conduct of Her Majesty's Government towards the Governor General engaged in a most difficult position—engaged, and most skilfully engaged, in the suppression of one of the greatest mutinies and widespread rebellions which the history of any civilized country has upon record. Without pronouncing any opinion whatever, either as to the Proclamation or the arguments used in that despatch which commented on it, I conceive that there are few of your Lordships who will not deprecate the tone, the time, the manner, and the circumstances in connection with the publication of that paper. I think their

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  conduct towards the Governor General has been most unwise, most indiscreet, most ungenerous, and, virtually speaking, most illegal. If your Lordships will refer to the Act of Geo. III., passed in 1793, c. 33, you will find that the Secret Committee is to be sworn upon oath to secrecy; and yet, that which these officers are not allowed to divulge even to their own colleagues, the President of the Board of Control exposes to the whole of civilized Europe before the person to whom it is addressed can have any cognizance of its contents. I beg to postpone my Motion.
  THE EARL OF ELLEN BOROUGH: The noble Earl has done justice to the Governor General, Lord Canning. Allow me to ask him to do justice to another—I do not mean to myself (for that I do not expect); but to the Marquess of Dalhousie. The Motion of the noble Earl is evidently intended to convey the strongest possible censure on the policy of Lord Dalhousie, which was supported by Her Majesty's late Government. It does not state truly the principle upon which Lord Dalhousie did what he did. If his policy is to be censured, let his principle be stated in his own words; and I do request that the noble Earl, when he does (if ever he does) bring forward his Motion, will state the principle in the words of the noble Marquess who preceded Lord Canning.

EXCISE DUTIES BILL.

  THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  Moved—That the Bill be now read 3a.
  LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, he did not object to the very high rate of duty which it was proposed by the Bill to levy upon Irish spirits, provided only that it could be collected. Perhaps he should be told that the present duties were punctually paid; but he would remind their Lordships that the price of grain had latterly been very high; and when that was the case the revenue authorities had seldom much to complain of. But in point of fact smuggling was on the increase; for while the consumption of spirits had of late increased, the number of gallons taken for home consumption had diminished. The difference must, therefore, have been made up by spirits smuggled or illegally distilled. There was another matter to which he wished to refer. The admirable body of revenue police bad been abolished and its duties transferred to the Irish constabu-
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  lary; but while a fair provision had been made for its younger members, those who had grown old in the service had been treated in a most miserably parsimonious manner. The Government would save £40,000 by the proposed arrangement, and was going to raise £500,000 additional from Irish spirits, and they might do an act of justice to these men for £20,000 a year. He had no personal knowledge of any one of these parties, but he appealed to any noble Lord connected with Ireland whether he had not justly estimated the services of this corps. He should not make any Motion on the subject, but he hoped the Government would look into the matter and do what was just.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, he did not agree with the noble Lord that the measure would have the effect of promoting illicit distillation. The decline of the temperance movement in Ireland had no doubt tended to increase the consumption of spirits there; but still it should not be forgotten that the population of that country was a diminishing one, and that the habits of the middle and higher classes had become greatly improved, two circumstances which would account for the moderate consumption of spirits. He would not deny that an increased duty might have the effect of still more limiting the consumption; but as the use of intoxicating liquors was bad for the morals of the people and for the prosperity of the country, it was the duty of the Government, independently of raising a revenue, to impose a tax upon it. The revenue police had no doubt been very effective in suppressing illicit distillation in the mountains and bogs, but had not been a very great check upon overrunning in the licensed distilleries. The districts which had been the last stronghold of the illicit distiller were rapidly becoming more and more assimilated to the other parts of the country, and therefore the necessity for a revenue force no longer existed. He thought the Government had taken a very wise step in equalising the duty.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEthought that this matter was one of very great importance to Ireland, and he dreaded lest illicit distillation or the adulteration of spirits should increase. With reference to that class of persons to whom his noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) had referred, they had been turned out of the public service at a time of life when it was almost impossible

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  for them to devote themselves to anything else, and he recommended their claims to the notice of the Government.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, that, as to the particular class alluded to who had been superannuated, he must say to the noble Marquess opposite that it was quite sufficient for the Government to have to defend their own measures, without having cast upon them the burden of defending the measures of the late Government. This was the second time within a short period when leading Members of the late Government had attacked the present Government for doing that for which they were themselves responsible. The late President of the Board of Trade had attacked the Government as to the arrangements for telegraphic communication with India, and had made an admirable speech, pointing out the superiority of another plan and the great inconvenience of the one adopted, without waking to the consciousness that the plan so objected to was that adopted by the late Government of which he was a Member. The noble Marquess protested as to the injustice of the superannuations. [The Marquess of CLANRICARDE: No.] To the great hardship then inflicted on the officers of the revenue police by reason of the inadequacy of the compensation. It did happen that that compensation had not been assigned by the present Board of Treasury, but by the Government of which the noble Marquess was so distinguished a Member.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE: Not at the time. A complaint had been made before he joined the late Government, and he had intended to bring it under the notice of his colleagues.
  THE EARL OF DERBYwondered that the noble Marquess had allowed the matter to sleep as long as he was a Member of the Government. It was at all events very extraordinary that the noble Marquess had accepted office in the Government that had inflicted such hardship on a body of his countrymen—if indeed it were a case of hardship; but he did not think it was. He thought that these men had received as much as they were entitled to. Upon the consolidation of the revenue police with the general constabulary of Ireland, every man who was fit for service in the revenue police was transferred to the constabulary police. They then had to deal with those who were incapable of performing their duties; and they were dealt with in this way. All who had served for a period of
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  time which entitled them to receive less than half of their pay and emoluments had assigned to them a sum equal to half of their pay and emoluments, a sum larger than by any circumstances they were entitled to under the Superannuation Fund Act. Those who had served for a longer period, and came under the Superannuation Act, had assigned to them the utmost amount that the late Lords of the Treasury could assign; this applied to those who were entitled to more than half their emoluments. The complaint really was not that the Government had done too little for one class, but too much for the other. It was the old parable of the labourers in the vineyard. A memorial had been prepared in which superannuation was calculated upon the basis of pay and allowances, whilst the Government took as their basis for superannuation, pay and emoluments. "Allowances" included such items as forage for a horse; but when a man left the service he, of course, had no claim to such an allowance. Nothing could be more unjust than to regulate superannuation in reference, not to pay and emoluments, but to pay and allowances. What he said was this, that they bad given to those who had only been a short time in the service more than they were entitled to, and they had given to those who had been longer in the service the maximum that they were entitled to claim; and under these circumstances he could not see that the parties had been dealt with unfairly. There may have been cases of individual hardship, but as a general rule he thought that the late Board of Treasury had treated these parties with justice and liberality.
  LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that he had complained of both Governments, and that when the Bill for the consolidation of the revenue police with the constabulary was introduced it was said that a distinction would be made in the case of officers whose offices were abolished. This demand was now put forward solely on the ground of pay, not of allowances, and the case was one deserving of consideration.
  LORD STANLEY of ALDERLEYsaid, the noble Earl at the head of the Government had accused the late Government of making it a practice to condemn their successors for taking those measures which they had themselves sanctioned when in office. This accusation appeared to have some reference to what passed on a former evening relative to the laying down of the electric telegraph to Alexandria. Now,

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  the facts really were, that only a few weeks before the noble Viscount late at the head of the Government stated, in "another place," that the negotiations with the Austrian Government on the subject of the telegraphic communication had ceased; and shortly after the present Government came into office, he had himself expressed a hope that the negotiations would not he renewed, inasmuch as any scheme which would give to an Austrian company the absolute control of the telegraphic communication with Malta, or any other of our Mediterranean stations, would be highly objectionable and detrimental to the public service. And he had at the same time added, that in his opinion some attempt ought to be made, before negotiating with the Austrian Government, by the present Government to ascertain whether the telegraph could not be laid down by an English company on the same or even on more favourable terms. The noble Earl opposite then stated that the Government were only carrying out the recommendation of their predecessors, and, in proof of that assertion, referred to a minute which they had found among the public archives on their accession to office. The truth was, that this so-called minute was only a memorandum, which bore date the 22nd of February, or two days after the late Government resigned, and it contained no decision whatever on the subject. He had asked the noble Earl now at the head of the Foreign Office what answer had been made to the proposition made by the Sardinian Government in regard to the laying down of the telegraph; but he had been unable to elicit from him any satisfactory reply. The last intimation which the late Government gave on the matter was the one to which he had already referred—namely, that the negotiations with the Austrian Government had ceased. This explanation would show whether he had condemned the Government for adopting the recommendation of their predecessors.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURY, with respect to what the noble Lord had stated as to the impossibility of obtaining an answer from him the other evneing, said, that the noble Lord had not done him the honour to give him due notice of his intention to put his question. The House would recollect the advice offered to the Government by a noble Earl on Friday night—namely, never to answer any question, however simple, unless previous notice of it had been placed upon the paper. That
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  appeared to be a good rule to follow; and, if the noble Lord wished for any information which could be consistently afforded by the Government, perhaps he would not object to give notice of his question.
  After a few words in explanation from Lord STANLEY Of ALDERLEY,
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill read 3a accordingly, and passed.
  House adjourned at half-past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.