Lords Sitting of 15 March 1858

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—la Tenants for Life, Trustees, &c.; District Courts of Bankruptcy Abolition Bill (No. 2); East India Loan.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE.
NOTICE OF STATEMENT WITHDRAWN.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE, who had given notice that he would make; a Statement, and call the Attention of the House to certain matters relating to himself, said that upon the advice of some noble Friends he desired with the permission of their Lordships to withdraw his Notice of Motion.

THE SLAVE TRADE—RETURNS.

  QUESTION.
  LORD BROUGHAMbegged to ask his noble Friend at the head of the Foreign Office when the papers in relation to slavery, which had been ordered some time ago, would be laid upon the table?
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: I am sorry to inform my noble and learned Friend I am afraid that the papers alluded to will not be ready before May, or even June. The delay arises from certain formalities which have to be gone through; and all the Returns have not yet been received.
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  They will run to a much greater length than was at first supposed. I am sure that my noble and learned Friend will not be disappointed by this delay, for when they are produced they will be found to be very satisfactory. Instead of 1,000 or 1,200 pages, as was expected, they would extend to 2,000. By the end of May or the beginning of June they will be ready for presentation to the House.
  LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that the reason assigned for the delay was most satisfactory; but from what had passed outside of the House he expected that such arrangements would be made for the future as would ensure those Returns being made at an early period of the year.

  THE IRISH MAGISTRACY—QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, in the month of August last a letter was addressed to me, through the then Lord Chancellor of Ireland, in which certain instructions were conveyed to me as Lord Lieutenant of the county of Down in reference to the appointment of magistrates. I should not have introduced this question to the noble Earl at the head of the Government, but that he must be sensible that matters may arise every day in which the discretion of the nobleman filling the office of Lord Lieutenant in respect to the distribution of magisterial commissions may be called in question. Apologizing, then, to the noble Earl for calling his attention to this subject, I beg to ask him whether the letter from the late Lord Chancellor of Ireland is still intended to stand as an instruction to the Lords Lieutenant of counties, or whether Her Majesty's Government are disposed to take a different view of the matter?
  THE EARL OF DERBY: I have no difficulty in answering my noble Friend's question, because this is one of the subjects that engaged the attention of my noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (the Earl of Eglinton) before he left this country. I am quite sure that my noble Friend will do the noble Earl, who now presides over the Councils of Ireland, the justice to admit that there is no man who has a greater desire than he has to maintain the principles of equal justice to all parties in Ireland, and to discourage, as far as possible, those political and religious dissensions which have unhappily prevailed there. My noble Friend will, I am sure, be glad to know that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland is no more connected than I am

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  with the Orange societies in Ireland; and I believe that he, like myself, is of opinion that, whatever may have been the advantages of that organization in past times, of which I will say nothing, and whatever may be the loyalty, good feeling, and conduct of Orangemen generally—upon the whole, the organization of Orange societies to certain parties for the magistracy was a step which was beyond the requirements of the law. But we are of opinion that the letter of the late Lord Chancellor of Ireland, which laid down an absolute disqualification, is rather calculated to do injury than service in the present state of Ireland, and that, although the Orange society may be one the existence and organization of which we may regret, it is yet one which, being legal, its members ought not to be subject to any disqualification arising from it. I will not say whether it is desirable or not that members of the Orange society should be appointed to the office of magistrates. I own that it is not desirable that, as a matter of ordinary occurrence, clergymen should be appointed to that office. If other persons can be found, I think it is undesirable that that office should be held by clergymen. It may also he undesirable that, as a matter of ordinary practice, Orangemen should be selected to fill the office of magistrate. I think, however, that nothing can be more inconsistent or inconvenient than that the Lord Chancellor should lay down a general rule refusing to grant the commission of the peace to any person belonging to any particular class or party. On this principle I think that the late Lord Chancellor went beyond the necessity and desirableness of the case in withholding the commission of the peace from the members of the Orange society, which was a long established society. I can, therefore, inform my noble Friend that it is not the intention of my noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, nor is it the intention of the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland, to continue to act upon the principle of disqualification laid down in the late Lord Chancellor's letter. It is undoubtedly desirable that no person should be appointed to the magistracy in Ireland whose peculiar political opinions are likely to interfere with the due administration of justice; but the recommendation of such persons, whatever may be their political opinions, to hold the office of magistrate in Ireland must be left to the unfettered discretion of the Lords Lieutenant of the counties, and the adop-
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  tion of such recommendation must be left alike to the unfettered discretion of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland.
  THE EARL OF CARLISLE: My Lords, I was not aware that the question of my noble Friend was about to be put, nor do I think it desirable that we should discuss the subject at the present moment. All I can say is, that if the question had been mooted before your Lordships' House while I retained my connection with the government of Ireland, I should have felt myself fully prepared to justify and vindicate the propriety of the letter of Lord Chancellor Brady. I beg to express my satisfaction with that general opinion with respect to the propriety of the Orange organization which has been thrown out by the noble Earl opposite; but I, of course, hold myself quite prepared to question the propriety of any future appointment to the magistracy in Ireland. I hope, however, that the appointments will be such as to render any observations on my part unnecessary.

FOREIGN REFUGEES IN ENGLAND.—RELATIONS WITH FRANCE.

  CORRESPONDENCE LAID ON THE TABLE.
  TUE EARL OF MALMESBURY: My Lords, I beg leave to lay on your Lordships' table the correspondence which has taken place between the Government of Her Majesty and the Government of his Imperial Majesty the Emperor of the French since Her Majesty's late Ministers resigned their offices. I am happy, my Lords, to state that that correspondence puts an end to all the misapprehensions which unfortunately existed for a short time between the two countries. And it would be unfair in me if I were not to add, that that desirable consummation has been facilitated by the frank and handsome manner in which Count Walewski came forward after the House of Commons had expressed, on the 19th of February, its opinion upon, and disapprobation of, his despatch. I repeat, my Lords, that Count Walewski expressed to Lord Cowley his regret that he had been misunderstood, and frankly gave to Lord Cowley a most satisfactory explanation of the expressions which in his despatch had been misinterpreted. I think that your Lordships, when you read the correspondence, will see that this matter has been concluded with all honour and good feeling on the part of both Governments. I have nothing more to say upon the question than that Her

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  Majesty's Government place the highest value upon that alliance, which has been of so much consequence to the happiness of Europe, and, I must say, of the world, for the last five years; and that they have the most thorough conviction that the same feeling is entertained by the Emperor of the French, whoso sentiments, through his Minister, your Lordships will find clearly and satisfactorily expressed in those despatches. That I may not alter a word of his expression, I beg leave to read an extract from one of them. We are convinced, my Lords, as the Emperor of the French says he is convinced, that—
  "The reconciliation of the great nations, after centuries of antagonism, could be sincere and lasting only on one condition—namely, that the honour of the one shall never be sacrificed to the honour of the other."
  Correspondence presented (by command) and ordered to lie on the table.

DISTRICT COURTS OF BANKRUPTCY ABOLITION BILL.

  ORDER FOR THE SECOND READING DISCHARGED.
  LORD BROUGHAMrose to move that this Bill be read a second time, in order that it might be committed pro formâ, and might receive various Amendments which he wished to introduce. This, he would observe, was not the only measure on the subject of bankruptcy which their Lordships would have to consider. There was already another Bill before the House; he understood that the Attorney General had a Bill in preparation in which he had great hopes, from communications he had had with the law officers of the Crown, that many of the most important portions of his own Bill would find a place. At the recent Congress on Social Science, Lord John Russell had suggested that the Chambers of Commerce ought not to content themselves with merely sending deputies and receiving their report, but that they should meet again in order to express their views on the subject of bankruptcy. Persons for whose benefit a particular system had been established might not be altogether safe counsellors with regard to the alterations they wished to be made; but they were witnesses beyond exception with regard to the existence of the evils they complained of in the system itself. Accordingly, the Chambers of Commerce had met and prepared a scheme which had been sent in to the law
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  officers of the Crown. To these four Bills might be added a fifth—namely, one that was in preparation by his noble and learned Friend, the late Lord Chancellor. If all these measures were introduced into the House, the inevitable result would be that they would be referred to the same Select Committee which would be able, he had no doubt, to compound a satisfactory measure out of the ample materials so submitted to it. Under these circumstances, he now moved the second reading of the Bill which stood in his name, with the view of having it committed pro formâ to-morrow.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORrequested his noble and learned Friend to postpone to a future day the advance of his particular measure a single stage. He admitted that the state of the law, both as regarded bankruptcy and insolvency, was most unsatisfactory; that there had been very extensive complaints for a considerable time throughout the commercial world, and that there had been a loud demand for an amendment of the law. He agreed, also, with his noble and learned Friend that in dealing with this subject it would be necessary, in the first place, to revise the whole of the law, and the result of such revision would be, he hoped, the introduction of very material amendments. His hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General (Sir Fitz Roy Kelly) had turned his attention very closely and particularly to the subject, and he believed that he would be prepared, with the sanction of the Government, to introduce a measure of a very comprehensive and extensive description, which would probably include all those matters to which the attention of his noble and learned Friend had been more particularly directed. He believed that in a short time his hon. and learned Friend would be prepared to introduce such a measure to Parliament. The Bill of his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) proposed to deal with only one portion of this vast subject; but it could not be denied that it would be very inconvenient that that there should be anything like piecemeal legislation on so important a matter. His noble and learned Friend proposed to abolish all the District Courts of Bankruptcy; but he (the Lord Chancellor) was afraid that there would be a most formidable objection to his Bill, seeing that it proposed to saddle the Consolidated Fund with an annual payment of no less than £400,000. However, whether that were so or not, he put it to his noble and learned

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  Friend whether it would not he advisable to postpone the further consideration of this measure, in order that he might ascertain what were the intentions of the Government on the subject—in fact, until the Bill of his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General was introduced in the other House. His noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) would then be able to judge whether the whole subject had been properly dealt with, and possibly he might find that, owing to the comprehensive provisions of the general measure, his own Bill upon only a small portion of the subject would be unnecessary.
  Lord BROUGHAMconsented to postpone the second reading.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read, and discharged.

  DISTRICT COURTS OF BANKRUPTCY ABOLITION BILL (No. 2)
  BILL PRESENTED. READ 1a
  LORD BROUGHAMthen presented a Bill to limit the jurisdiction of Her Majesty's Court of Bankruptcy; to Abolish the Courts of Bankruptcy for the Country Districts; to give to the Judges of the County Courts acting in the Country jurisdiction in matters of Arrangement and of Bankruptcy in certain cases; and further, to increase the jurisdiction of the County Courts, and to amend the Laws relating to Bankrupts and to the Estates of deceased Debtors.
  THE EARL OF DERBYthought that the noble and learned Lord had taken a very wise course in consenting to discharge the Order. With reference to the course originally proposed by the noble and learned Lord of reading the Bill a second time and committing it Pro formâ, he observed that his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack had had so short an experience in that House as yet that he was not aware, probably, how irregular they were. His noble and learned Friend on the woolsack very naturally supposed that the second reading of a Bill affirmed the principle of the measure, and that the details were regulated in its passage through Committee. But the custom had grown up in that House, which he could not but think was "more honoured in the breach than the observance," of bringing forward Bills, laying them on the table without a statement, reading them a second time sub silentio, when no one thought of affirming the principle, and passing them through
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  Committee pro formâ. By this practice only one, or at most, two discussions could take place upon a Bill—namely, upon bringing up the Report, and upon the third reading. He (the Earl of Derby) could not help thinking that the more regular course of proceeding would be that of discussing the principle of a measure upon its second reading, and not of postponing its discussion until the latter stages of the measure.
  Bill read 1a

  AFFRAY AT DUBLIN.—OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF RODENsaid, he wished to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to a circumstance which had occurred in Dublin, and the details of which were in the newspapers of that morning. It had, indeed, caused great excitement and no little disgust in the minds of large classes of the population. He referred to the most disgraceful attack that had been made by the police of Dublin upon a number of young gentlemen students of the University. It was not his intention to defend a riot which might have been caused by throwing orange peels among a crowd, be-cause their Lordships well knew that such occurrences took place at all similar places when the students were assembled to exhibit their feelings; but what he complained of was, that the police of Dublin — the cavairy with drawn sabres and the infantry with truncheons—headed by one of their commissioners, made a cowardly attack upon a number of unarmed lads and inflicted serious injuries upon several of them. He believed that the case would have been very different if the police of London had been placed under similar circumstances, and he could not help thinking that the time had come when an inquiry into the constitution and efficiency of the Dublin police, and of the individuals who commanded them, had arrived, as it appeared clear that the force as at present constituted was wholly inefficient to preserve the peace and tranquillity of the city. He begged to read their Lordships an extract from a private letter from a gentleman, who was present during the affray: —
  "I was present yesterday afternoon, and witnessed the attack, by mounted policemen, on some of the college students under the railing. I saw several of the police riding after the lads, and cutting at them, while they were running away, with sabres; also a great number of foot police following the students, and striking them on the backs of their bare heads and on the arms with their batons. I heard no Riot Act road by any

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  one. I did not consider there was any occasion for a Riot Act to be read. I saw an old gentleman on horseback, whom I was informed was Colonel Browne, inside the college railings. I went up to him, and called upon him to withdraw those police ruffians, who had no business inside the railings. The mounted police were at the moment cutting and driving at the students through the partly closed wicket. Colonel Browne did not appear, as far as I could judge, to have any command whatever over the police; he did not seem to be in possession of his faculties. I saw him shake hands with two of the young students, at the same time that his men were cutting and laying about them in every direction. Colonel Browne never interfered. I saw nothing in the conduct of the students to provoke so gross and fearful an outrage. I saw no stones thrown, in fact there were no stones to throw. I saw some squibs and crackers let off, and oranges flung, also eggs, I saw in the early part of the day a policeman who had been deprived of his hat, and got in amongst the students, but beyond a little squeezing I saw no injury inflicted upon him. I myself Assisted in getting him clear of the crush of students and others. I particularly noticed the manner in which the mounted police were formed round the outside for the purpose, I suppose, of defying and exasperating the students. I also particularly noticed the savage butchery of the policemen, cutting and striking at mere boys, who were at the time running away. Nothing in the character of the Sepoys could go beyond the savage and revengeful demeanour of the Dublin police. Colonel Browne, the commander—I must do him the justice to say—appeared stunned and bewildered, but his conduct was not such as to entitle him to the command of the demons In could not control yesterday. Nor ought the public to permit drawn swords in the hands of such scoundrels, who have the character of being everywhere except the place in which they are most wanting. I should add that when the police first charged, the students ran away. There was then no occasion for the police to follow them. It will, as a proof of this, be found that most of the serious wounds were inflicted on persons whose backs were turned. I myself had to run, pursued as far by the police as the corner of the railing near College Street. I had not a cap or gown on, though an old college man. I am quite convinced that many students who were perfectly quiet were struck by the police merely for the fact of wearing a college cap. I saw no attempt at any party display, or party conduct, by the students; and nothing but the most perfect goodwill towards them by the townspeople."
  The question which he wished to ask was, whether the Government had received any information on the subject of this most disgraceful and ruffianly outrage?
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My noble Friend has given me notice that he intended to put this question, and nothing can be more natural than that he and all others connected with Ireland should feel deep interest in the unfortunate subject to which it refers. Whatever may have been the origin of the affray, the results have been most lamentable; — I believe that two
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  of the young gentlemen wounded are not yet pronounced out of danger. I am not aware that any official account of the occurrence has been received, but I did receive this morning a private letter from my noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant, in which he assures me that he has caused the strictest investigation into the circumstances, and that he will leave nothing undone to arrive at the truth. My noble Friend has mentioned in his letter what the impression left on his mind is; but as the inquiry is still pending, I do not think it expedient that I should state what that opinion is. I may say, however, and I believe my noble Friend opposite, the Viceroy under the late Administration (the Earl of Carlisle), will confirm me, that the Government to which he belonged intended to cause a strict inquiry to be made into the general character and conduct of the metropolitan police, and I assure the House that it is our intention to take up the subject immediately.
  THE EARL OF CARLISLEsaid, that the late Government, of which he had been a member, intended to inquire into the whole system of the working of the Dublin police system.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock till To-morrow half-past Ten o'clock.