Lords Sitting of 18 June 1858

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Peace Preservation (Ireland) Act Continuance.
3a. Law of False Pretences Amendment.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA.

  QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEwished to ask a question to which he did not expect to receive an answer until the noble Earl at the head of the Government was able to be present, but it referred to a subject of overwhelming importance, which indeed, was not yet under the consideration of their Lordships, but which could not but be constantly within their view. He referred to the new settlement of the government of India. That subject required as much deliberation by their Lordships' House as by the other House of Parliament, but although a great many weeks had passed the matter had not yet come before their Lordships. It appeared from those sources of information with which they were daily supplied, that this great question, after assuming various aspects, and presenting itself in every possible form, had at last lost its way in the House of Commons, but by great good fortune it seemed now to have recovered the right road. Having determined to proceed no further with the Resolutions and to bring in a Bill the Go-
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  vernment were now able to communicate to their Lordships the progress they had made. He had no other object than that there should be an early despatch of this great measure so far as was consistent with that opportunity of full consideration which their Lordships were entitled to demand. He wished therefore to ask whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to propose to the other House of Parliament that the Resolutions agreed to by that House should be communicated to their Lordships without waiting for the passing of the Bill? He was willing to acquiesce in what seemed to be the general feeling of the Government and of their Lordships, but it appeared to him that by the communication of these Resolutions the House might have the advantage—if advantage it were—of being enabled to enter upon the consideration of some of the most important topics without waiting for the Bill itself, which might possibly not come before them for a long period, and such a course might contribute to the saving of time when the Bill did at last reach them.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, that in the absence of his noble Friend at the head of the Government, he must ask the noble Marquess to allow him to postpone a positive answer until Monday. He very much feared that his noble Friend would not be well enough to appear in his place on that day, but he would communicate the

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  question of the noble Marquess, and he was sure his noble Friend would give it that attention which any suggestion coming from him always deserved.

PRIVATE BILLS.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY moved that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the present System of Proceedings in Parliament on Private Bills, and to consider whether any Improvement could be effected to facilitate such Legislation and diminish its Expense. The noble Lord, having described in some detail the present mode of proceeding in reference to Private Bills, and the alterations which the system had undergone from time to time, said, the great evil of the existing mode lay in the expense to promoters of such Bills consequent upon their having to prove their case first before a Committee of the House of Commons, and then before one of the House of Lords. One way of meeting or diminishing this evil would be to assimilate, as far as possible the Standing Orders of both Houses of Parliament, in reference to private Bills. When this was done the Question whether these Orders had been complied with might be referred to some officer or officers of each House, in the case both of opposed and unopposed Bills. He submitted also, that with respect to unopposed Bills that Parliament should be satisfied with one proof, which might be made before a joint Committee composed of Members of both Houses who should give their decision once for all. He urged upon the House that it was worth while to inquire whether alterations could not be introduced into the present practice in the hope of diminishing expenses, improving the mode of procedure, and facilitating the transaction of business. One proposal which he should be disposed to make with that view would be the organization of a panel of chairmen who should, as in the case of the House of Commons, preside over the Committees of their Lordships' House, and give their advice and assistance in matters of difficulty. The delay in fixing the time of hearing had always been the subject of complaint, and something ought to be done to remove that ground of vexation. Again it would be highly desirable to adopt some means for the purpose of more equalizing the distribution of business throughout the Session. It was desirable to inquire whether it was not possible to reduce the expense and faci-
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litate the transaction of business so as to remove from the public mind an impression that now prevailed that their Lordships' tribunal was not only expensive but unfair and dilatory. The best means of doing that, he thought, would be the appointment of a Committee, and, therefore, he had now to submit a Motion to that effect to their Lordships.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, that since the great improvements in the proceedings with respect to private business originated in that House in 1837, he thought the Committees had worked as well as anything of that sort could; but at the same time he did not think a Parliamentary Committee was the best tribunal for inquiring into these matters. With regard to the expense, he did not think the expense was heavy, except when the Bills were opposed, and, with regard to them, a great portion of the expense was attributable to the parties who had the conduct of the inquiry, and the frightful length of time occupied in consequence. He was not quite sure that something might not be done by requiring that the parties should send in a list of witnesses stating the several points on which they proposed to call them, and that that list should be submitted in the first instance to a Standing Committee, for this purpose, which should limit the number of witnesses that each might call. The investigations before Committees of this House were always shorter than in the other House, and the reason given was that the matter had already been investigated. With regard to the double procedure between the two Houses, he did not think that a great deal was to be gained on that head, because, as he had stated, the great expense was on opposed Bills, and he thought that on opposed Bills a double investigation was desirable. But there might be something done by mutual communication between the two Houses to prevent the necessity of a double investigation on points that were not disputed. Another suggestion was, that there should be in the House a panel of chairmen; but he did not think they could work that in the same way that they did in the House of Commons, which had much more command over their Members than this House had. Another was, that the two Houses should work together, and that they should exchange Bills. At one time he was strongly in favour of something of that sort; and supposing that some great stress of business were to occur, as

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in 1845, he thought some such arrangement would be desirable: but in ordinary times he did not think it would; because the more time they allowed to the agents the longer would they delay. He would observe that the greatest good had arisen from the Order he was the means of getting passed, that after a certain day no Private Bills would be taken. He thought that from the appointment of the Committee some small good might arise, but he was afraid from the nature of the subject that very little was to be done in the way of remedy for the evils complained of.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he was more sanguine than the noble Lord who had just spoken as to the result of the appointment of this Committee. The improved mode of conducting the business commenced in this House in 1837, and was suggested by him to the Duke of Wellington. He suggested that there should be a joint Committee, seven of the Commons and five of the Lords, for each Bill, by which means double investigation, which was the great evil, would be avoided. Another suggestion was, that the Committee should sit with a legal assessor. He greatly lamented that these plans were not then adopted, as the root of the evil was the double investigation. Great good had arisen from the appointment of Examiners, though their functions were confined to the Standing Orders. He thought that the same principle might be applied to the merits of the case. If the Committees wore appointed, and a good understanding was come to between this Committee and the Committee of the House of Commons, which he understood was to be appointed, he would fain hope that some good would be effected.
LORD PORTMANsaid, he was decidedly of opinion that there should be an examination in each House into the merits of the different Bills, and that the doing away with such deliberate examination would not conduce to the public advantage. He thought, however, that the investigations, and consequently the expense, might be curtailed with great advantage. One important step towards an improvement of the system would be by giving the Committees the power of directing which side should begin in the Private Committees. For instance, in cases which had been determined by the other House, the opponents of a measure might be called upon to state their objections, and then the promoters would have those objections only to
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meet. He had seen that done in some cases with great success. He also thought it would be a considerable improvement on the present system if a number of Peers, who would attend punctually, would undertake the labour of attending to Private Bills; they would by this means qualify themselves to be very valuable chairmen of Committees, and would render a great service to the public. With respect to the Motion of his noble Friend, he should be happy to render the Committee any assistance in his power in carrying out his inquiry.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, he rather doubted the useful working of a joint Committee of both Houses. Perhaps such a Committee might be beneficially employed in deciding questions relating to Standing Orders, but in other cases he thought separate Committees most desirable. It was to be regretted that Parliament had not yet arrived at some definite conclusion as to the principles on which railway legislation was to be carried on; it would be very advantageous if some regulations could be laid down to enable the public to judge whether certain projects were likely to receive the sanction of Parliament, for at present it was impossible for the parties interested to know how any proposal would be received by the Committees. He admitted the difficulties which surrounded the subject, but thought it possible that some general directions might be given as to the settlement of particular questions affecting the interests of the public, when competing railway measures were submitted to Parliament; and perhaps it might be desirable to have some public department to report on each railway project, so that the rights of the public might be protected.
After a few words from Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY in reply,
Motion agreed to.
Committee named.

VICARAGE OF CAMBERWELL.—LAW OF SEQUESTRATION.—PETITION.
LORD ST. LEONARDSpresented a petition from the vestry of St. Giles, under their corporate seal, for inquiry into the circumstances connected with the sequestration of the vicarage of Camberwell, and for Amendment of the Law of Sequestration. The petitioners, the members of the vestry of Camberwell, represented that the number of souls in that parish was 60,000, and that the income of the vicar was £2,309

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per annum. The vicar had been compelled to leave the parish in consequence of being greatly in debt, owing at the time he left about £30,000, secured by sequestration, and the balance now due being £20,000. Under these circumstances, the ministerial duty, for which £2,300 a year was paid by the parish, was performed by two curates appointed by the Bishop, who had no power under the existing Act of Parliament to give a larger salary than £200 a year between them. The petitioners complained, and most justly, of this state of things, and desired an inquiry to be made into the condition of the parish, and prayed that their Lordships would originate some law with regard to sequestration. He regretted that none of the members of the right rev. Bench were present, but he trusted that the case would become known to them by some means or other, and that they would suggest a remedy for such a state of things. No one could deny that the law as it stood required some alteration. There were three parties concerned in a sequestration—the minister himself, the parishioners, and the creditors of the clergyman. The parishioners had a right to complain if, while they were paying a large sum for the services of the church, those services were performed by one or two curates in the receipt of £200 a year, the surplus being paid over to the creditors of the incumbent. By law, a clergyman could not charge his living with any debts that he might incur. If a judgment were obtained against him, he could not charge his living with the payment of the debt; and yet by the operation of the law, and by the judgment creditor praying a sequestration by the Ecclesiastical Court, a sequestrator was appointed who took possession of the temporalities of the living, provided curates at not more than £200 a year, and allotted the remainder of the clergyman's income to the payment of the debt; so that when an incumbent was embarrassed he applied to the money dealers, who were perfectly aware of the nature of the security they could obtain. The moment things went wrong these money dealers took out a sequestration and seized the whole of the temporalities, to the exclusion of the general creditors. The tradesmen of the parish, for example, who might imprudently have trusted the clergyman were cut out by the sequestration. He held that a clergyman was bound to the spot where his duties were to be performed; and, although an excuse might be made for improvidence,
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he ought never to be excused for wilfully running into debt, and being thereby prevented from executing the sacred duties of his office. Instead of allowing a clergyman to obtain a license to reside from his parish or to reside as an outlaw abroad for the purpose of avoiding his creditors, he ought to be bound to remain at his post, and execute his duties; and if he could not do this, from having wilfully and recklessly run into debt, he would declare the living void and strip his gown from him, as being incapable of performing his duties. Without taking from the creditors all the security they now possessed, he certainly would not suffer a sequestration to take place which enabled one great creditor to take the whole surplus income of the living. He would have one person appointed by the Ecclesiastical Court to receive the whole income of the living. The incumbent should receive a certain allowance, fixed by the Bishop, but should be compelled to reside and perform the duties while he was endeavouring to become a better man. He would then let all the tradesmen and other creditors share equally in the payment of the debts. The object he should have in view would be to prevent clergymen from becoming improvident and incapable of performing their duties to their parish; and on the other hand, it would render persons cautious how they allowed him to get into their debt. Creditors, again, who wished to obtain a great interest for their money would not be able to avail themselves of the necessities and improvidence of clergymen. He trusted that the petition would receive the consideration of the Government and of the heads of the Church, and that some remedy would be devised from the evils to which he had called their attention.
VISCOUNT DUNGANNON, in common with his noble and learned Friend, regretted that none of the right rev. Prelates had been present to hear the statement he had just made. He thought the House ought to be grateful to his noble and learned Friend for calling their attention to so important a subject. He himself (Viscount Dungannon) knew many instances in which the incumbents of populous parishes had been living abroad for many years, while their livings were under sequestration, and the duty of the living had been discharged by one or more curates on meagre salaries. This was a most lamentable state of things. The proposed scheme of the noble and learned Lord was one of a most important character. He (Viscount Dungannon) had seen evils

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result from the present state of the law in more parishes than one, and trusted that the subject would have the serious attention of the Legislature, and he thought that no one would be better able to give the required attention to the subject than the master mind of the noble and learned Lord who had introduced the topic.
LORD REDESDALEhoped that the noble and learned Lord who had introduced the subject would take the matter into his serious consideration; for it was well-known that unless some individual took it up earnestly, it would never be taken up in a general way. The evil had gone on for a great length of time; every one was sensible of it, and no attempt at any remedy was proposed. The evil in a great degree arose from the fact that people did not consider sufficiently the trust connected with their living. They treated it too much as property, and in a great many other matters connected with the livings and preferments of the Church that feeling was allowed to prevail. A Bill had been introduced for depriving Members of either House of Parliament of their seats under certain circumstances, and great benefit would be done to the Church if the same system were adopted in respect to livings made vacant under certain proceedings. There was a trust connected with Church livings as well as seats in Parliament; and it was necessary that the example of the clergyman should be beneficial to his parishioners rather than the contrary, and if he got into difficulties and embarrassments it was desirable that he and his living should be separated. He, however, did hope that while provision was made for the due performance of spiritual duties in the Church, the question of property would be no less considered in connection with Church preferments and the due performance of ecclesiastical duties.
Petition to lie on the Table.
House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.