Lords Sitting of 22 July 1858

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Lord Gifford.
2a Art Unions Act Amendment; County Property Conveyance; Chelsea Bridge Act Amendment; Returns to Secretary of State; Detached Parts of Counties.
3a Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction Continuance; Charitable Trusts Acts Continuance; Copyhold and Inclosure Commissions, &c.; Indemnity; Administration of Oaths by Committees; Army Service; Universities (Scotland); Stipendiary Magistrates; Turnpike Trusts Arrangements.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, that he wished to draw the attention of the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) to the fact, that certain alterations agreed to in Committee on the Government of India Bill had not been inserted in the measure as now printed. By the 28th clause of the Bill it was proposed that the Secretary of State, without the intervention of his Council, and not the Secret Committee, should in future be the organ of communication with the Governor General. The noble Earl at the head of the Government, in consequence of some remarks made on both sides of the House while the Bill was in Committee,

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  consented to alter the clause so as to provide that the Secretary of State should be assisted in such matters by the Vice President of the Council and one of the Members of his Council to be nominated by himself. He had looked at the Bill, and found that no such alteration was made on the bringing up of the Report. There was another trifling inaccuracy, in the 52nd clause, which, as well as that in the 28th clause, would, he hoped, be rectified before the third reading was moved. The noble Earl would recollect that the 52nd clause, as it originally stood, provided that, when an order for the commencement of actual hostilities was sent to India, notice thereof should be given to Parliament within one month after the issuing of such order, or, if Parliament were not then sitting, within one month after it met. The noble Earl, after considerable discussion, agreed that three months, instead of one, should be inserted. But, as the clause now stood, the order need not be produced till within one month after the meeting of Parliament, if Parliament were not sitting when the order was issued; so that, although three months might have expired from the time it was issued before Parliament met, another month must expire before the Government could be called upon to produce it.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he had been occupied for some time in going through the Bill carefully, together with the Gentleman who drew the Bill, in order that the alterations that were to be made in it should be duly inserted. He did not make any alterations on the bringing up of the Report, but proposed to make them before he moved the third reading. With regard to the first point to which the noble Duke had called his attention, he had to state that the 28th clause, as it would stand when the third reading was moved, would provide that with reference to communications with the Governor General the Secretary of State should be assisted by the Vice President of the Council and such Member of the Council as he might from time to time nominate. With regard to the other point, the noble Duke seemed to misunderstand the clause. The clause was quite correct. It provided, that if an order should be sent authorizing the commencement of hostilities, notice thereof should be given within three months if Parliament were then sitting—that was to say, at the expiration of three months—but if Parliament were not then sitting, then within one month after it met.

CHELSEA BRIDGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL.—SECOND READING.
On Motion that this Bill be now read 2a,
THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, that it ought to be made clear that the £17,000, which had accumulated as interest, was to be repaid, as well as the £80,000—capital sum—borrowed from the Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners, before the opening of the bridge toll-free to foot passengers. This did not appear to be distinctly provided in the Bill, which only mentioned the suns of £80,000 with interest; but the interest already accrued raised the sum to £97,000. He was extremely glad that both the present and the late Governments had resisted the applications which had been so strenuously made to them for the abandonment of the whole of this sum, because, if they had yielded, it would have been a gross breach of faith, and might have led to the introduction of a very inconvenient and objectionable precedent. So far as the public interests were concerned, there was no argument in favour of opening this bridge free of toll which did not apply in a greater degree to all the metropolitan toll bridges.
THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, that it was the intention of the Government to provide by the Bill for the payment of the interest as well as the principal, and if that were not made sufficiently clear at present, the clause should be altered so as to leave no doubt upon the subject.
Bill read 2a (according to Order) and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Monday next.

COOKING APPARATUS FOR THE ARMY.

  ADDRESS FOR PAPERS.
  EARL FORTESCUE EARL FORTESCUE moved an Address for Copy of Proceedings of Two Committees assembled at Woolwich on the 6th March and 26th April, to report on Captain Grant's Cooking Apparatus; and, Copy of Correspondence between the Quarter Master General and Captain Grant, respecting the Erection of a Cooking Apparatus at Shorncliffe. The noble Earl also asked the Under Secretary for War, whether after the three years' experience that has been had of Captain Grant's Cooking Apparatus, there appears any reason to doubt its superiority over every other previously in use; and, if not, whether any or what steps were being taken to extend its adoption generally throughout the army?
  VISCOUNT HARDINGEsaid, there was no objection to the production of the papers

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  moved for by the noble Earl. The last meeting of the Woolwich Committee took place on the 20th of April, and the evidence laid before the Secretary of War had induced him to come to the conclusion that Captain Grant's cooking apparatus—the great saving of fuel and other desideratœ being most satisfactorily proved—was the best that ever had been submitted to him. The report, however, recommended that before the general adoption of the apparatus in the army, Captain Grant should be desired to superintend the erection of a model kitchen on his principle for 500 men at some station or other—to verify his estimate of prime cost and test its capabilities; and hence it was that the further trial at Shorncliffe had been determined on. If the report of that experiment should be as satisfactory as the other reports had been, the Secretary for War, he believed, would take steps for the general adoption of the cooking apparatus in the service. The delay of three years mentioned in the noble Earl's question had not occasioned any great inconvenience, but it had certainly been productive of great improvement in the apparatus, for every time a new one had been erected, some additional improvement had been effected. The last submitted to trial was very different from that originally erected at Aldershot.
  Motion agreed to.
  House adjourned at a Quarter to Eight o'clock, till To-morrow. half-past Ten o'clock,