Lords Sitting of 19 February 1858

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths—The Earl of Waldegrave.
PUBLIC BILLS—2a Lady Havelock and Sir H. M. Havelock's Annuities.

DISTRICT COURTS OF BANKRUPTCY ABOLITION BILL.
LORD BROUGHAM, while asking his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack

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when the Government measure would be introduced, would take the opportunity of stating that he had omitted last night to add that his Bill, which was then read a first time, contained a specific provision to prevent the scandal happening again, which was at present a disgrace to the law. He alluded to English debtors going from England to Scotland to avail themselves of the proceedings of the Scotch bankrupt law, and to avoid the operation of the English bankrupt law, as had recently occurred in the case of Mr. Stevens, the manager of the Eastern Banking Corporation. He had also introduced into the Bill what were called the "dead-men's clauses," applicable both to bankrupts and insolvents, which he had introduced into the measure of 1849, and had only withdrawn at the request of the late Lord Cottenham.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the Government Bill was actually prepared. Whether it would be introduced in this or the other House he could not say, but he had no doubt it would be introduced in a very few days.

CONVEYANCE OF TROOPS BY OVERLAND ROUTE.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT DUNGANNONsaid, that pursuant to notice he wished to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the unsound and unsafe condition of vessels selected to convey those troops who had proceeded to India by the overland route from Suez and Aden, and more especially to the condition of the Alma and the Ajdaha, sent to convey detachments of the 69th regiment. The 69th regiment having been sent by overland route to India, the Alma was expected to be in readiness at Suez to convey them to Aden and Point de Galle. He was informed, however, that this vessel, when off Aden, broke the shaft of her paddlewheels, and was rendered incapable of proceeding any further. That might be a casualty, which could be neither foreseen nor prevented. Be that as it might, the consequence was that the detachment of the regiment was detained eight days at Suez. They arrived on the i 9th, and did not leave until the 27th of December, when the Ajdaha was sent to convey them, and in this vessel they proceeded to Aden, where they arrived on the 4th of January. On the 6th they left Aden, and on the 7th, when the ves-
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  sel was about 700 miles out at sea, the Ajdaha sprang a leak, and put back to Aden. No less than 280 officers and men had been put on board this vessel, which he was told had been condemned as unseaworthy eighteen months before, He might be told that neither of these vessels belonged to the Government. He was aware that they did not; the Alma belonging to the Peninsular and Oriental Company, and the Ajdaha to the East India Company. He thought that the Government were highly blameable if they had handed over Her Majesty's troops to the ships of any Company without having them examined by some accredited parties at Suez or Aden. If they had not done so, it could not but appear that they had incurred the wanton and reckless risk of a great number of lives. It was surely sufficient for those who had relatives engaged in India to be aware that they were exposed to all the necessary chances of the field and climate, without the reflection being superadded that they were exposed to the additional risk of losing their lives unprofitably and ingloriously by accidents which might be avoided by ordinary care. This was not the first time in which great carelessness had taken place in this matter of the conveyance of troops. The same regiment, the 69th, came over from Barbadoes last year in the Urgent, a vessel which was known not to be seaworthy, and which occupied thirty-three days in performing, at considerable risk, a passage which ought not to have taken more than nineteen days, and it was quite providential, he was informed, that she had arrived at all. He trusted the noble Lord would be able to afford some satisfactory explanation of these matters, or at all events assure the House and the country that a full inquiry should be made, and measures adopted to prevent their recurrence.
  LORD PANMURE: In reply to the observations of the noble Viscount, I can only state that he has made a great complaint of a matter that can be most easily explained. The 69th regiment was sent overland to India, the Alma being destined to meet them at Suez and carry them on. In her passage to Suez, and before the troops were embarked, the Alma broke a very important part of her machinery, which rendered her totally unfit to convey the detachment. In the meantime the 69th regiment arrived at Suez, and found waiting there the Ajdaha—not a vessel that had been condemned, as the

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  noble Viscount says, but a frigate belonging to the Honourable East India Company's Navy—which undertook the duty that was to have been performed by the Alma. The Ajdaha is a steamer of between 1,400 and 1,500 tons and 500-horse power, and was therefore amply sufficient for the conveyance of the troops. This vessel, however, unfortunately sprang a leak when she had been two days on her voyage beyond Aden. She put back into Aden in consequence, and delivered the men safely without the loss of a single man. Another vessel, the Candia, carried them on, and no doubt they have by this time arrived at their place of destination. It is obvious that in both cases the accidents were such as no human foresight could have guarded against, and I beg your Lordships' attention to the fact, that in all the embarkations of troops to India there has not been a single casualty whereby the loss of any soldier's life has. occurred. The misfortune which happened on board the Sarah Sands transport only served to exhibit a most remarkable instance of discipline, coolness, and presence of mind, under circumstances of the most extreme peril, and reflected credit, not only on the gallant officers and men of the regiment, but also upon the officers and men of the ship. It is with great satisfaction that I am able to make this statement in answer to the noble Viscount, because an idea has gone about that some ships have been taken up that were unworthy of being sent to sea, and that some accidents have occurred from this circumstance. But no such accident has occurred. It has been the most anxious desire of the Company that no troops should be embarked on board ships that were unseaworthy, and the result has been what I have stated. The difficulties attending the overland route to India are very great, and at this moment, I am sorry to say, in consequence of the non-arrival of a vessel, the 92nd have been detained a considerable time on their voyage to India, but they have since been enabled to proceed on their way to India.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEthought the difficulties to which the noble Lord alluded might be met if Government would address themselves to the establishment of a system of transport in connection with the Royal Navy, instead of depending upon hired transports. Under this latter system they did not know what ships they got. [Lord PANMURE: "Yes, we do."]
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  No; they did not know what they paid, nor what they got for their money. No doubt the noble Lord was anxious to prevent accidents as far as possible; but accidents were constantly occurring notwithstanding, and to the great inconvenience of the public service. He was aware that under no system could accidents be altogether avoided, but they would be much more rare if the Government employed for this transport service their own ships, their own officers, and their own men. There was a class of vessels now in the possession of the Government—the block ships, which were scarcely suitable for war purposes, but admirably adapted for the conveyance of troops; six of these had been fitted with engines and employed during the late war. He would suggest that of these, two should be constantly employed between this country and Alexandria, and the other four sent round to the Red Sea, to carry on the troops as they arrived at Suez to the ports of debarkation in India.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he would venture to bring to the attention of the noble Lord one or two details which had lately come to his knowledge. He had heard that the connecting-rod of the engine in the case of the Ajdaha was worn out and broke, and had she not been close to the shore there would have been danger from that source. He had also heard that this vessel was taken up to convey specie and the mails, but that, having been examined, she was not thought good enough for that service, and that after this the troops were embarked in her. There ought to be in the case of every vessel taken up for transport purposes an examination under the authority of the Admiralty as to her sea-worthiness, and by an officer of the Quartermaster-General's department as to the accommodation and provision made for the men during the voyage.
  LORD PANMUREsaid, that the services of the Ajdaha were brought into requisition because she happened to be in port at the time. She was not taken up, but was a frigate belonging to the East India Company. He knew nothing about the breaking of the connecting-rod. With regard to the employment of men-of-war on transport service, the subject had been well considered by successive Governments, and it had been decided upon all grounds that it would be unadvisable to adopt that system, but to adopt the plan of taking up

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  merchant vessels when wanted. There was a system of examination which he believed to be sufficient: the vessels taken up were inspected by an officer appointed by the Admiralty, whose report was forwarded to the Quartermaster General's department, which in their turn reported to the Horse Guards, both as to the fitness of the vessel for transport purpose, the nature of the accommodation, and the number of troops it was proposed she should convey.

EDUCATION IN INDIA.—MOTION FOR PAPERS.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, their Lordships were aware that of late years considerable efforts had been made by the Government in India to extend education among the Natives. He believed there was reason to fear that these efforts Lad not been attended with the best results, and it was very desirable that they should know at least in what direction they went. It was manifest that they had produced a considerable impression on the minds of the Sepoys. It should be remembered that the Sepoys were not like the soldiers in this country, where they were usually unmarried men; on the contrary, it was part of their religion to marry, and their object in joining the army was to be able to send remittances to their families, and make provision for their children. Their desire also was to be able to retire and live with their families on a pension, instead of supporting them with the ordinary wages of labour. Altogether they were persons of domestic habits and feelings, and had occasional furloughs granted them to enable them to renew their connections. It was very desirable, therefore, we should know what the feelings of these people were with respect to the education we were establishing in India, and accordingly he had given notice of a Motion for the production of a Report which he understood had been written by Mr. Chapman, the Director of Public Instruction at Behar, for 1855–56. Though he had not read the Report, he had seen extracts from it, which he would take the liberty to read to the House. Mr. Chapman, in his first quarterly Report, said:—
"To the spread of education there are great obstacles in Behar, arising chiefly from the bigotry of the Mussulman moulavics and a general fear of proselytism, exasperated at the moment by the attempt to deprive gaol convicts of their lotahs."
To deprive them of their lotahs would, no
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doubt, be felt as a great practical grievance, and he could well understand that it would give rise to a great deal of excitement among the Sepoys. In the next quarterly Report it was stated that "the religious suspicion of the people was still an impediment," and in the Report for the third quarter his words were:—
"He is able to confirm, from a strict observation, all that he has formerly asserted of the existence of a deep-rooted prejudice against the educational measures of the Government. The people are persuaded that their conversion is aimed at. They believe that the missionaries are in the pay of Government, and it is almost impossible to convince them of the contrary."
Now, he had been informed, though he could hardly give credence to the statement, that there had been regularly given by the Government grants in aid of the missionary schools. Till he heard a formal intimation of that fact he was unwilling to make it the ground of any reflection upon the Government, for he could not believe it possible that they would act in a manner so inconsistent with their obligations, and so much opposed to the traditional wisdom and policy of all the greatest men who had governed that country. He would assume, therefore, that on this point his information was not correct, and that there had been no grants given in aid of the missionaries. Further, as he understood, the Report from which he had quoted had the following passage:—
"The consequence is, that when a command to send their children to school would be obeyed, if not with intelligent assent, at any rate as a decree of fate, our advice is despised and rarely followed. I therefore find it most effectual to take for my starting point, and to allow my subordinates to do the same, that it is the order of Government that people should now educate their children, and that the people ought to be satisfied that Government would not command that which is not good for them. Having laid down this principle, we then proceed to prove, by every argument at our command, that in so doing Government has no intention whatever to interfere with the religion of its subjects."
This was the mode of proceeding which Mr. H. L. Reid had adopted in the Northwest Provinces. These were some of the passages contained in this Report, and he was desirous of seeing the whole of it. The Government no doubt had information of the proceedings adopted with reference to the schools. What they did was not done in a corner. The Reports made from time to time were forwarded to the Government, and the Government was therefore perfectly cognizant of what was going on. He had been favoured with an extract

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from the letter of an officer in the Bengal Army, in which there was the following passage with reference to the schools:—
"One of the chief causes of the outbreak was the system of education which had been of late introduced. Schools were raised in every village, and in every school religious books, Bibles, &c, in Hindostance, were introduced, although it was optional with pupils to read them or not. * * The whole country became alarmed at the innovation, and soon the mysterious chupatty was passed through the land, from Peshawur to Calcutta."
He did not now press on their Lordships the importance of preventing the existence, among the Natives of India, of any apprehension that there was an intention on the part of the Government to depart from its old traditionary policy. He assumed that the Government practically intended to act on the ancient policy by which we acquired the country, and he should not, therefore, for the present question their intentions on that subject. He could only regret that over-zealous officers of the Government had brought on the Government a suspicion of having departed from the original understanding. He would move,—
That there be laid before this House, Copy of the General Reports on Public Instruction in the Lower Provinces of the Bengal Presidency for 1855–56.
EARL GRANVILLEwas understood to say, that he agreed much in the opinion expressed by the noble Earl with regard to the importance of educating the Natives of India, and had felt the same interest that he had done in watching the insults of the measures which had been adopted for that purpose. With reference to the effects which education in India might have had upon the Sepoys, he could not imagine that there was any connection whatever between it and the recent mutiny, inasmuch as the Sepoys, or the great mass of them, were recruited from Oude, in which province the system of education had not yet penetrated in the slightest degree. The House was aware of what educational measures had been adopted in India, and he, for one, rejoiced that a large portion of their Lordships were of opinion that it was the duty, as it was the privilege, of the British Government to improve the education of the swarming population who were subject to this country in India. As far back as 1813, on occasion of a renewal of the Company's charter, it was recognized by the charter that it was the duty of the Government of India to endeavour to encourage learned Natives to introduce
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Western literature, and to impart that useful knowledge which would be most likely to establish the material welfare of the country, as well as to improve the moral character of the Natives themselves. It was ten years after that, however, before any effectual steps were taken to discharge that duty. The Committee of Education for India was then established, who proceeded to appoint able men to administer that department, and a grant of £10,000 was made. Great good was done by consolidating the public schools in the various districts, and their measures were generally productive of very useful results to the cause of education in India. It was thought by the Committee that it was the duty of Government to introduce Western knowledge into India, and the best way to introduce that knowledge was first to encourage a knowledge of the English language, which would enable learned Natives readily to master the literature of Western Europe; and that then, by encouraging the study of the vernacular languages, those learned Natives would be enabled to communicate that knowledge to the great mass of the country. Measures were accordingly taken to give effect to that suggestion; a considerable improvement took place, and the number of schools increased to a great degree. The matter was brought before the Committee of their Lordships' House in 1853. Those of their Lordships who attended that Committee, and those especially who heard the admirable evidence which was given by three or four witnesses on that occasion—Dr. Duff, Sir Charles Trevelyan, Mr. Martin, and Mr. Halliday—would remember the stress that was laid upon the desirability of extending the education of the people of India upon the principles laid down by the Committee on Education to which he had adverted. A remarkable despatch, founded on the Report of that Committee, was subsequently prepared by the Board of Control, concurred in by the Court of Directors, after being examined and commented upon by some of the principal authorities on the subject in this country, and sent out to India. That despatch, too, recognised that it was a public duty and a public advantage that the people of India should receive Western education, and adopted the principle that, if education were given, the best means of doing it was to extend the English language instead of the classical languages, and encourage the study of the vernacular

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tongues. For this purpose it also stated that—having due regard to the differences of religion in India—no better system could be adopted than that very system which had been found to work so well in this country amongst Christians of all denominations. That system was well known to their Lordships, and it was not necessary for him to describe it now. It chiefly consisted of giving assistance to schools of all denominations, by grants of money, by the proper training of schoolmasters, and by subjecting such schools to Government inspection, so as to take care that the public money was not thrown away. Now, in that despatch he believed there were not less than seven passages which lay down in the broadest manner possible the intention of the Government not to interfere in the slightest degree with the religious teaching in the schools in India, but to abstain entirely from interference with with that religious teaching. It recommended, in accordance with the evidence of the witnesses he had named, that an Indian University should be established, founded upon the model of the London University, as best adapted to the circumstances of that country; which University should receive scholars from all the different educational institutes of India, whether Christian, Hindoo, Mahomedan, Parsee, or Buddhist, or any other. In short, it was to be as open as possible. From the Report of the Inspectors of Instruction, dated December, 1856, it appeared that what had been done had, on the whole, turned out most satisfactory; and he had particular pleasure in observing that one of the principles laid down by the Government was, that it had been found better to rely upon the self-supporting principle as far as possible, and upon the schools already existing in a district, than to establish new schools to be wholly supported by the Government; and in many instances the founders of Native schools had come forward and placed their schools under the inspection of the Government with the greatest alacrity. Certainly, so far as the province of Behar was concerned, one circumstance is noted which is well worthy of our consideration. Mr. Chapman, the Inspector, states:—that there was a connection in the minds of the Natives between the spread of education and religious conversion. He (Earl Granville) could only say, however, that it was one of the curious problems attending the late mutiny which remained yet to be
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solved, how, if this feeling prevailed, the mutiny of the Sepoys was so little joined in by the Native population of the country. There was one passage in Mr. Chapman's Report to which the noble Earl had alluded, and from which it seemed as if the Inspector had not proceeded with his usual judgment. He must say that, in telling the Natives that it was the command of the Government that they should send their children to school he had acted indiscreetly, and in a manner that was entirely opposed to the letter and the spirit of his instructions. With regard to the effects that were likely to be produced by educating the people of India, he had heard it as an undoubted fact, from Calcutta, and equally from Bombay—from Calcutta, upon the authority of Mr. Halliday; from Bombay, upon the authority of a gentleman who had held one of the highest judicial positions there, and was constantly in correspondence with some of the most trustworthy persons at that Presidency—that, almost without an exception, those Natives who were connected with our places of education had remained faithful and loyal to the British Government; their superior intelligence and information giving them the belief that it was for their own interests, as well as for the interests of the country, that the British Government should for the future be the supreme Government of India. This was shown in a remarkable degree at Bombay, where he understood some of our troops had met with a most cordial reception, and been entertained at a public dinner by some of those very Natives. There was, however, one part of the education given to the Natives which our experience of the last year had unanimously condemned. He believed that it was not the time to give instruction in the scientific departments of war to those whom we found we could not always trust or depend upon. Up to the present time, this teaching had been carried to the highest degree, and he had been told by a gentleman of great professional reputation, who was at the siege of Delhi, that as regarded science and tactics, both in artillery and engineering, the Natives proved themselves equal, if not superior, to ourselves. He had also been informed that, with some remarkable exceptions, where the talent of the General had shone forth with conspicuous lustre, our successes were in general not so much owing to our superior science as to those moral qualities which

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no mere teaching could impart, and which were inherited by Englishmen through the blood they had derived from their ancestors, and their being brought up under Western civilization and free institutions; thus constituting them a race superior to the Natives with whom they had to deal. He did not believe that we could ever hope to raise the 180 millions of India to the exact point of civilization to which we ourselves had attained. All he could say was, that if ever such a result should be attained, it was clear that they must either have a large share in their own government or they would expel us from India altogether. At the same time he could not, for a reason of that sort, or from a mistaken notion that we could more easily govern them, admit that it was our duty studiously to keep them in ignorance. Every thinking man in the present day was of opinion, that our real object in our government of India must be to benefit the people governed, and that therefore we must do our best to elevate them in the scale of social and moral being. For those reasons he trusted that the existing system of education would be persevered in; although he entirely agreed with the noble Earl, that it must be carefully watched both in India and from home, so that the officers who were entrusted with the charge should in no respect go beyond the exact limits laid down for their guidance.
Motion agreed to.

LADY HAVELOCK'S AND SIR H. M. HAVELOCK'S ANNUITIES BILL.

  SECOND READING
  LORD PANMURErose to move the second reading of this Bill, which he was sure would receive the cordial assent of every Peer in the House. The object of the Bill was to confer annuities of £1,000 per annum respectively for life, upon Lady Havelock and the present Sir II. M. Havelock. Having recently stated in some detail the valuable services which the late gallant General Havelock had rendered to his country, it was unnecessary now to do more than briefly allude to them. The late General Havelock entered the army in 1815, and served in the whole of the Burmese war. From 1824 to 1826 he acted as Assistant Adjutant General in Sir Archibald Campbell's army; he afterwards served in Affghanistan, and distinguished himself upon every occasion as an officer of his reputation might be expected to do. Upon the breaking out
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  of the late Persian war General Havelock gave up a valuable staff appointment and took the command of a brigade under General Outram. When the mutiny in India occurred General Havelock returned in time to march to the relief of Lucknow, and performed those glorious deeds which had rendered his fame immortal. Having achieved the object he had so ardently struggled for, he was, however, soon stricken down by the hand of death, his constitution having been worn out by his arduous services in his country's cause. The House of Commons had unanimously agreed to this Bill, and he had no doubt that their Lordships would be delighted to concur in bestowing upon the widow and son of so illustrious an officer a reward which, although it might not be equal to his merits, yet was an expression of the national gratitude, worthy alike of the country and of the gallant warrior whom we had lost.
  Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Monday next.
  House adjourned at a quarter-past Six o'clock, to Monday next, half-past Ten o'clock.