Lords Sitting of 9 February 1858

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Law of Property Amendment.
2a Trustees Relief; Transfer of Estate Simplification.

LAW OF PROPERTY AMENDMENT BILL.
BILL PRESENTED. READ 1a.
LORD ST. LEONARDS presented a Bill for the further Amendment of the Law of Property, and moved that it be read a first time.
LORD BROUGHAMtook the opportunity of expressing a hope that the present Session would not be allowed to pass over without some attempt being made to amend the present defective state of the Law of Bankruptcy.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he thought that the law as it stood offered great temptations to traders to contract debts fraudulently and recklessly. If a specu-
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lation turned out a profitable one, so much the better for them; if, as was most often the case, it became a losing concern, the worst thing that could happen to the creditor would be for the debtor to go through the Insolvent or Bankruptcy Court. Great care ought, no doubt, to be taken to protect honest debtors, but some additional protection ought also to be given to the injured creditor.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he would remind his noble and learned Friends that while in the opinion of some the law had been too much relaxed in favour of the debtor as against the creditor, he was beset with innumerable applications to support the principle of the measure brought in by his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham), which abolished the punishment of imprisonment for debt. If that were done, then he should like to know how the fraudulent insolvent or bankrupt was to be dealt with. He could not be transported; consequently, there remained only the punishment of imprisonment. Granted that the present state of the law was in an unsatisfactory state, he wanted some one to suggest a tertium quid, and to say what there was between releasing these parties and letting them go scot free, and putting them in prison. His noble and learned Friend (Lord Campbell) would confer an incalculable benefit on the commercial community at large if he could suggest any other mode than that of imprisonment as a punishment for those who incurred debts fraudulently, or refused to pay their debts.
LORD CAMPBELL: There ought to be a more stringent examination of the debtor in order to ascertain under what circumstances his debts were contracted. At present it was hardly worth the creditor's while to go into court and oppose a bankrupt or an insolvent.
LORD BROUGHAM: No one could feel more strongly than he did the force of the observations of his noble and learned Friend. He agreed that some more stringent law, and a more stringent practice under that law, were necessary to prevent the frauds of debtors, and to put an end, as far as possible, to the unworthy competition of tradesmen to surpass one another, not in the excellence of their goods, but in the facilities of offering credit, whereby they themselves were sufferers in the end, and the morals of the community were greatly injured.
Bill read 1a

SANITARY CONDITION OF THE ARMY.—
LORD PANMURElaid upon the table the Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the Sanitary Condition of the Army, the Organization of Military Hospitals, and the Treatment of the Sick and Wounded. The noble Lord said that the Report was a most voluminous one, but he trusted that their Lordships would not be deterred by that fact from giving it an attentive perusal The Report reflected the highest possible credit upon the Commissioners, and he could not allow that opportunity to pass without expressing his high sense of the merits of the document itself, as well as the obligation which he was under to those who had conducted the inquiry. His thanks were especially due to his right hon. Friend (Mr. Sydney Herbert), who presided over the Commission, and he was glad to have that opportunity of bearing his testimony to the diligent, painstaking, and admirable manner in which he and the other Commissioners had fulfilled the important duty entrusted to them by the Crown.
COMMUNICATION BETWEEN HOLYHEAD AND DUBLIN.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT DUNGANNONsaid, that in the last Session of Parliament the noble Duke at the head of the Post Office (the Duke of Argyll) gave him the satisfactory assurance that arrangements had been made for establishing a fresh service of sea-going steam vessels for carrying the mails between Holyhead and Dublin, and information which he had subsequently received led him to hope that this object might be accomplished, and the arrangements be in active operation at an early period, at least, in the year 1859. He had since been given to understand, however, that unexpected obstacles had arisen in the way of carrying out the arrangements, in consequence of some differences between the Chester and Holyhead Company and the Dublin Steam Packet Company, and that the probability was that this very desirable object might be indefinitely postponed. He was anxious to know from the noble Duke, then, whether any such obstacles had presented themselves, and if so, whether there was any hope of their being speedily removed, and an object carried into effect which was most desirable for the public at large, and more especially for those who were connected with the sister island?
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he was not aware of the existence of the obstacles to which the noble Viscount had referred. There had been some delays, he believed, in arranging and completing the contract between the various parties concerned; and if any difficulties had arisen he hoped they would be speedily removed.
  House adjourned at Half-past Five o'clock, to Thursday next, Half-past Ten o'clock.