Lords Sitting of 5 February 1858

MINUTES.
1a Imprisonment for Debt Abolition; Church of England Special Services.

PASSPORT SYSTEM.—QUESTION.
EARL STANHOPEsaid that, seeing the Secretary for Foreign Affairs in the House, he wished to draw attention to the subject of passports. He had read in the newspapers the circular issued by Her Majesty's Government respecting the alterations proposed to be made by the French Government in regard to the issue of passports by French consuls in this country. The result would be, that in future the French consuls would in this country only issue passports to French subjects, and not to British subjects, as had heretofore been the case. He wished to know what course was to be pursued with respect to the consuls of other nations besides France, because he apprehended considerable inconvenience might ensue to British subjects who might take passports from the Belgian consul, for example, and when they wished to return through France, would find their passports not available. Now that this occurrence had arisen, it afforded a favourable opportunity to put an end to a great anomaly, that of British subjects going abroad with foreign passports. It would be infinitely better if those British subjects went abroad provided with passports from their own Government. There was a time when it was difficult to get a Foreign-Office passport, for the price was then inordinately high; while other foreign Ministers issued passports without charge at all. He remembered that when he was Under Secretary, the charge for a Foreign-Office passport was no less than £2 16 s. or £2 17 s.; but that charge being naturally complained of, the charge had since been reduced to 7s. 6d. Foreign consuls con-
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tinued to issue passports as before, requiring payment for them. Under these circumstances he wished to ask his noble Friend what course would be taken now that this occurrence had taken place. He thought it a favourable opportunity for instituting a new system, and he was sure it would be for the common interest that British subjects should, as a rule, travel with passports obtained from their own Government.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON, in answer to his noble Friend, had only to say that, a few days ago, the French Government informed us that it was intended to put an end to the system under which the French consular agents in this country had been in the habit of granting passports to British subjects. He should say that he had expressed his entire concurrence in the view of the French Government, if it was intended to at all rely on any safety that passports could effect; because, under the system lately in force, any person calling himself a British subject might obtain from any French consul in this country a passport, without inquiry as to the nationality of the man, still less as to his character. Again, these passports might be passed from hand to hand; and the person whom a foreign Government might have most reason to dread—who might be most dangerous to that Government—might go over and travel through the Continent as a British subject. Certainly there could be no greater anomaly than this; and that had been strikingly shown in the case of parties who went to Paris to rob different jewellers, and were subsequently arrested at Southampton with the stolen property in their possession. The British Government had never asked for the adoption of the late system; and, indeed, it had proved very inconvenient to them on several occasions: when a number of labourers, hearing that labour was required in France, were in the habit of getting passports from the French consular agents in England; of proceeding on those passports to France, and then finding that they had been deceived, and that there was no employment for them, and being reduced to great poverty, they were obliged to be brought back at the expense of the British Government. This Government did not interfere with the system because they attached no importance to passports. Any person might enter or depart from this country without a passport. It was not the intention of the Government to inter-

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fere in this question of passports if Foreign Governments thought that the system afforded them any security, nor could they prevent Her Majesty's subjects from getting passports when they pleased; but he thought that persons travelling in future with passports granted by foreign consular agents would be exposed to those inconveniences which had been pointed out by his noble Friend; and, therefore, while Her Majesty's Government would not interfere to prevent the issue of those passports, they would invite the discontinuance of the system of granting them. He thought, too, that British subjects would find it their interest to give up obtaining those foreign passports, because a British passport must, in the hands of an Englishman, have more weight on the Continent than a foreign one. By the recent circular, issued by the Government, it would be seen that while they gave every facility for the procuring of Foreign-Office passports, they required that the party applying for one should have a character given him by some one in authority, or some one known in the country, as a sort of guarantee. Therefore there could be little doubt that the system of obtaining foreign passports would be abandoned in a short time, because British subjects would find it was more to their advantage to take Foreign-Office passports. It was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to invite other Governments to abandon the existing system of granting passports to British subjects through their consular agents. It was quite true, as had been observed by his noble Friend, that some years ago the expense of a Foreign-Office passport was enormous; but this arose, not from the additional value of that description of passport, but in consequence of the existence of certain fees which were charged on these documents. For some time, however, the expense had been reduced to 7s. 6d., of which 5s. was stamp duty paid into the Exchequer, and the additional half-crown went to defray the expense of the establishment. He had, however, made inquiries, the result of which had convinced him that, even making provision for the payment of the additional hands which should be employed in consequence of the issue which was likely to take place, a sum of one shilling over and above the five payable as stamp duty, would be sufficient to make the issue self-supporting, and this was all the Government wanted it to be.

NAPLES.—QUESTION.
EARL GREY presented a petition from the inhabitants of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, complaining of the harsh treatment inflicted on Park and Watt, the two Engineers now on their trial at Salerno on a charge of aiding in an attempt at insurrection in the Neapolitan territory, which treatment the petitioners regarded as an insult to the British nation, and praying the interposition of the British Government. His Lordship added that he could not present the petition without expressing his opinion that there had been ground for the dissatisfaction which the petitioners expressed as to the manner in which the two men in question had been treated by the Neapolitan Government. It seemed monstrous to him that two British subjects who did not voluntarily place themselves within the dominion of the King of Naples, but were, on the contrary, taken there by force, should for some months, while awaiting their trial, have been compelled to undergo a punishment which in this country would have been considered sufficient for offences of some gravity. He thought it a subject for grave dissatisfaction that English subjects should be so treated, and he could not help believing that Her Majesty's Government had been prevented from interfering in their behalf to the extent they might otherwise have done by the ill-advised course which they had pursued towards Naples, and which had now precluded their having any Minister at Naples, by whom the treatment of the persons in question could have been brought before that Court in a manner to insure a satisfactory redress.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, after the observations which have fallen from my noble Friend I think it necessary to trespass for a few minutes upon your Lordships' time. As this affair of the British engineers has justly excited very great interest throughout this country, I hope your Lordships will permit me to state the circumstances connected with their case. I can assure my noble Friend, in the first place, that these men have not suffered in any respect from the interruption of our relations with the Neapolitan Government; and I must do that Government the justice to say that their communications with Her Majesty's Government on the matter now under consideration have been frequent and courteous. The facts are these. On the 27th of June last the Cagliari, a coasting steamer,

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trading between Genoa and Tunis, was seized about sixty miles from Naples by some Sicilians on board, carrying arms. After taking possession of the vessel they proceeded to the island of Ponza, attacked the commandant of the place, overpowered the small garrison, and released some prisoners, whom they took on board with some pieces of artillery, 300 or 400 muskets, and some ammunition. It has only been quite recently that we have had accurate information as to the manner in which the Cagliari fell into the hands of the Neapolitan Government. It appears that after the Sicilians abandoned her the captain determined to take the vessel to Naples and inform the Neapolitan Government of all that had passed. He, therefore, steered for Naples; but before he arrived there he fell in with two Neapolitan frigates, on one of which he went on board and surrendered the vessel to the captain. I believe that this took place out of the Neapolitan dominions, being at a point more than six miles from the Neapolitan coast, and, consequently, not in the Neapolitan waters; and the Sardinian Government having ascertained this fact, have lately made a claim for the restoration of the Cagliari, which will of course include that of the men. The first that I heard of there being any English subjects on board the vessel was by a letter addressed to me by one of the hon. Members for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, who stated that an English engineer named Watt had been made a prisoner at Naples. On the day on which I received that letter I wrote to the acting Consul at Naples, desiring him to do all that was in his power to afford protection to this individual, and to secure his fair treatment, and to represent at the same time to the Neapolitan Government that, as he was simply an engineer on board the vessel, it was highly improbable that he could have had any improper design in connection with the expedition. Latterly I received a letter from Mr. Park, the father of the other engineer, making a similar request with respect to his son, and I sent out similar instructions to the acting Consul as to him. The Consul, however, informed me that he was not permitted to have access to the prisoners. I then directed him to write to M. Carafa, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, asking to be permitted to have intercourse with the engineers, and desiring also that they should be allowed to select their legal advisers, and that their trial should be hastened.
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M. Carafa replied in courteous terms that according to the Neapolitan law it was necessary that all the interrogatories and preliminary inquiries should in all instances be conducted in secret; that until they were completed and the indictment published, it never was the custom to permit prisoners to have access to those who were to conduct their defence, and that he could not make any exception in favour of British subjects; but he said that the acting Consul should be at full liberty to be present at the trial, that the trial would be public, and that he could select the legal advisers of the prisoners. In addition to this the Procureur General at Salerno, where the trial was to take place, informed the Consul towards the latter end of October that the relatives of the engineers would be permitted to see them; and as soon as I heard this I wrote to Mr. Parks proposing that he should avail himself of this permission; I also procured him a passage to Naples, and desired the Consul there to afford him every facility. I likewise wrote directly to M. Carafa, informing him that this case was one of great anxiety to Her Majesty's Government, that it had created painful sensations throughout the whole of this country, and that although it was not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to interfere with the Neapolitan law, and that that law should take its course if, unfortunately, those British subjects had made themselves amenable to it, yet we did complain that their sufferings were aggravated by not having been allowed to communicate with their friends, and we did regret the delay which had taken place in bringing them to trial. I received from M. Carafa a courteous letter, explaining to me the reasons which had prevented them up to that time having access to their families, and assuring me that no delay should take place in the trial. Eleven men of the crew of the Cagliari were by this time liberated, and the Sardinian Government, at our request, had the depositions of those men taken, which showed that Park and Watt had nothing to do with the object of the expedition, and that, on the contrary, they were compelled by force to work the engines. Those men were also sent to Naples as witnesses in behalf of the engineers. One of the chief accusations against them was that on one of them (Park) a letter from Miss White was found, which showed they were cognizant of the insurrection; but that lady has

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very properly published a letter in the newspapers lately, stating how it came that that document was found in their possession. It appears, from the explanation given by Miss White, that on the eye of the Cagliari leaving Genoa it was discovered that the engineers were English; that the captain had never seen either of them, and did not know their names; and that, as it was necessary that the whole crew should understand the reason of the seizure of the steamer, the captain, who could not speak English, dictated to her a letter stating what he wished them to do, which she translated. This paper was thrust into their hands, and they were compelled to work the engines with pistols at their heads. I have seen the indictment. It has been published within the last few days and sent here, and I must say it is very satisfactory, because it contains no charges whatever against the engineers, and there can be no doubt of their acquittal if their trial is conducted with ordinary fairness and impartiality. There are three charges made against them. The first is, that upon them was found this letter of Miss White. That can be easily explained. The second is, that they were without passports, it being the invariable rule not to give them to foreign engineers, it being considered sufficient that they should be borne upon the muster roll of the crew, as was the case with Parks and Watt. The third charge is, that the engineers must have been in complicity with those who seized the vessel, or they would have carried the steamer to Tunis—it appearing that the law advisers of the Neapolitan Government are under the belief that a vessel is steered by the men directing the engines. I have gone into these details in order to show to my noble Friend and to the public what have been the steps taken with respect to a case which I can assure your Lordships has been the cause of great anxiety to Her Majesty's Government, as well as of great and general interest to the whole country. I hope and believe no step has been omitted which could have tended in any way to alleviate the sufferings or to accelerate the trial of these men. We acted under the advice of the law officers of the Crown, and we could not deny the right of the Neapolitan Government to consider as amenable to their laws all those persons who directly or indirectly had been concerned in this rash expedition, and whom they have
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taken prisoners. I know it has been said that we should have taken more vigorous measures; but we had no right to claim of the Neapolitan Government to depart from the ordinary procedure of their laws, or that they should permit the friends and relatives of the engineers to have access to them sooner than those laws allowed; although I must say our requests upon that head were not unavailing, for the relatives of the prisoners in question were allowed access to them long before the usual period. I am afraid these prisoners have undergone considerable hardships, but I also believe that, according to Neapolitan notions, they have not been ill-treated. I firmly believe it was not the intention of the Neapolitan Government to ill-treat them in any way, and the treatment they have received has been such as caused them to be objects of envy to many natives of that country. I have only further to add that the trial has begun, and, looking to what can be the only evidence against them, I trust we may expect our unfortunate countrymen will speedily regain their liberty.
Petition to he on the table.

MARRIAGE OF THE PRINCESS ROYAL.— ADDRESS TO HER MAJESTY.
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I rise to perform the agreeable duty of proposing a Motion which I am sure will not only be not opposed, but will be cordially and unanimously assented to by your Lordships. I rise, my Lords, to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, congratulating her on the nuptials of her Royal Highness the Princess Royal and his Royal Highness Prince Frederick William of Prussia. The nation at large has testified its sentiments of loyalty and sympathy with Her Majesty upon the recent nuptials of Her Royal daughter; it has done so in every possible manner,—by public demonstrations, by the language of public writers, by the addresses from public bodies of every description. It only now remains for Parliament to perform the same pleasing duty. It is the less necessary for me in this House to dilate upon the subject, from the fact that many of your Lordships have had opportunities greater than the general public of remarking those qualities which have deservedly made Her Majesty so popular in this country, and especially of those private virtues which have made every event concerning

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her and her illustrious family a subject of deep interest in the domestic circles of this country. Some of your Lordships have also had opportunities of remarking those qualities of character and mind which Her Royal Highness the Princess Frederick William of Prussia has inherited, and which gives a certain promise that she will discharge every public duty with honour to the country from which she sprung, and that the union which has been sanctioned by her personal choice will he a happy one. There is no doubt, my Lords, that in free countries, where representative institutions prevail Royal alliances have not the same effect on the happiness or the prosperity of the people, which they have in countries under more absolute government, and where public opinion is less loudly expressed. In the latter countries it frequently happens that the power of a kingdom is increased or diminished by a Royal alliance, sometimes leading to happiness, sometimes to misery; but upon the present occasion there is no need to anticipate anything of that kind, although it has an influence which your Lordships have, doubtless, not failed to perceive. The display of popular feeling which has accompanied the marriage cannot but be extremely gratifying to both countries. I know of no way in which the people of this country could have shown a stronger interest in the recent happy event than they have done. I happen to know from his Royal Highness himself that Prince Frederick William was more touched than even by the loud congratulations and hearty hurrahs of the multitude, by the circumstance that, upon every occasion when they came into public, from those of every class who surrounded their carriage, he heard the simple phrase of "God bless you!" addressed to the Princess as to a near and dear relative about to be separated from her family. I think we may safely believe that upon this very day the illustrious young couple are being received with equal warmth and enthusiasm in that country which is now the Princess's adopted home, and I can't help thinking that where feelings of this nature have been evoked in two countries having already many resemblances, it must tend to produce that friendly feeling which it is most desirable should exist between all neighbouring nations. Convinced that your Lordships cordially agree with me in most affectionate sympathy with Her Majesty, and most fervent desires for the
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future happiness of the illustrious young couple, I beg to move
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, to congratulate Her Majesty on the happy Nuptials of Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal with His Royal Highness the Prince Frederick William of Prussia; and to assure Her Majesty of the satisfaction which this House feels at an event so gratifying to Her Majesty, and which they trust will be so conducive to the domestic happiness of Her Royal Highness.
THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, in unanimously agreeing to the Motion of the noble Earl, as I am sure you will, you are only giving an evidence of what is, without exception, the wish of the whole people of this country. I don't believe that ever in the history of the world has there been any Royal Princess at so early an age who had so well earned and secured to herself so large a portion of the public sympathy and affection as the illustrious Princess who has lately left us. I believe, too, that the general sympathy and spontaneous affection which have been shown by the public are fully justified by the private character and the private virtues of that amiable Princess. She has, indeed, well profited by the lessons she has received and the example she has had in her Royal parent. I believe all those who have had the honour of anything like an intimate acquaintance with her Royal Highness will concur in bearing the highest testimony not only to the amiability of her disposition and the sweetness of her temper, but also to her thorough appreciation of the duties attaching to her station and conscientious determination to discharge those duties faithfully and completely. I do not believe that any Princess ever left these shores attended by such unanimous expressions of goodwill and sympathy. The whole country will, I am sure, join with your Lordships in expressing the sentiment which must animate us all—an anxious and earnest hope that the illustrious Princess may long be the pride, ornament, and happiness of that country to which she has gone, and that there may be no limit to her happiness except that it may not be so great as ever to lead her to forget the country of her birth.
LORD BROUGHAM LORD BROUGHAM, while heartily concurring in the proposed Address, would not allow the opportunity to pass of protesting against the Royal Marriage Act, which he could not but consider as a most immoral Act.
Address agreed to, Nemine Dissentients.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, it would be no doubt as gratifying to their Lordships as it would be to Her Majesty that the Address should be presented by the whole House. He proposed, therefore, that they should meet at two o'clock to-morrow for that purpose.
Agreed to; and the said Address was ordered to be presented to Her Majesty by the whole House.

IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT ABOLITION BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED. READ 1a.
  LORD BROUGHAM presented a Bill, the object of which he stated to be to abolish the punishment of imprisonment for debt 5 to extend the laws relating to bankrupts to the case of non-traders, and to give further remedies to creditors for the purpose of securing the punishment of fraudulent debtors.
  LORD CAMPBELLexpressed his approval of the objects which the noble and learned Lord proposed to effect, observing that the distinction between traders and non-traders was perfectly absurd, and that if there was a complete cessio bonorum upon the part of an insolvent to his creditors he ought not, in his opinion, to be subjected to imprisonment for debts which he had done everything in his power hoestly to discharge. He was also extremely glad to find that his noble and learned Friend proposed to direct his attention to the punishment of fraudulent debtors, whose reckless speculations in the hope of speedily obtaining immense wealth so frequently led to the ruin of unfortunate creditors. The facilities now afforded by the law for fraudulent trading was most demoralizing to the mercantile community.
  LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he was happy to find that the Bill had the approval of his noble and learned Friend. For his own part, he entertained no doubt that it was calculated to be productive of very beneficial results, particularly of lessening those facilities for obtaining credit which were now afforded to such an extent by imprudent traders in the hope of securing customers.
  Bill read la.

CHURCH OF ENGLAND SPECIAL SERVICES BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY presented a Bill for Special Services in the Church of England, the object being to le-
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  galise such services under certain circumstances and with certain limitations. It would, he said, be in the recollection of their Lordships that the noble Earl below him (the Earl of Shaftesbury) had shortly previous to the recess introduced to their notice a measure of a similar nature. Now, he (the Archbishop of Canterbury), as well as his right rev. Brethren near him, were unanimously of opinion that the objects which the noble Earl sought by means of that measure to promote were of a character far too important to be abandoned; while they at the same time thought that the mode in which the noble Earl proposed to carry out those objects into effect was open to material objection. Under these circumstances, he had undertaken to submit to their Lordships the Bill to which he now asked them to give a first reading, and by which he hoped the, end which the noble Earl had in view would be attained, while its provisions would not give rise to the same doubt and suspicion upon the part of the clergy, and would not be liable to the same inconveniences—the result of an interference with ecclesiastical discipline—as the Bill which the noble Earl had introduced. He should simply add that it would afford both him and his right rev. Brethren the utmost gratification if the provisions of his Bill should meet with the approval of the noble Earl, and if with his aid they should succeed in securing to the members of the Church of England those increased facilities of operation which the change of circumstances and the increase of population seemed to require.
  LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that, being a sincere advocate of the object sought, he would suggest to the noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftesbury) the expediency of postponing for some time the further progress of the Religious Worship Act Amendment Bill, which stood for second reading for Monday next in his name, in order that their Lordships might be afforded an opportunity of examining previously the provisions of the Bill which the most rev. Prelate near him had just submitted to their notice.
  THE EARL of SHAFTESBURYwas understood to say that in his opinion both Bills might very fairly, and without any inconvenience, stand for second reading for Monday, when they could be discussed together.
  LORD CAMPBELLsaid, the interval between that evening and next Monday was

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  too short for the consideration of a subject of such grave importance.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYsaid, that he should, under these circumstances, take care that his Bill should he printed and in their Lordships' hands tomorrow morning.
  Bill read 1a.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, Two o'clock.