Lords Sitting of 15 May 1857

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—Several Lords; The Lord Petre took the Oath proscribed by the Act 10 Geo. IV., to be taken by Peers professing the Roman Catholic Religion.
PUBLIC BILL.—1a Sale of Poisons, &c.

THE WORKS IN ST. JAMES'S PARK—

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, in pursuance of the notice he had given, he rose to call the attention of the Government to the works now being carried on in St. James's Park; and to ask what were the objects and what would be the probable expense of those works. Any one of their Lordships who might have directed his attention to the proceedings now going on there must have been convinced that considerable expense would be incurred before the works now in progress were completed. For himself, he had in vain attempted to discover how the benefits likely to result from those alterations could be at all in proportion to the money which they would cost. He ought to tell such of their Lordships as were not aware of the facts that the piece of ornamental water in St. James's Park, some twelve or thirteen acres in extent, had been completely drained off, that the bottom of the lake had been levelled and covered over with a strong concrete six inches thick, and that the result would be that in future the lake would be rendered considerably more shallow, and would contain an average depth of water of probably three or four feet. There were other works going on besides; by which the water was to be pumped up into the lake and carried over the whole of its sur-

  287
  face, and then away to the river. He had taken the opinion of a competent authority on the subject, and the result was that he (the Earl of Malmesbury) could not estimate the total expense of the works in question at less than £12,000 or £14,000. Their Lordships would no doubt recollect that Parliament in 1856 voted £8,000 for making the approaches to the Park. He had been told by a person likely to know the views of the First Commissioner of Public Works, what were the advantages likely to accrue from the alterations now going on—they were three in number. He was informed, first of all, that the palace of Her Majesty would be rendered more healthy, by the water in the lake being kept pure. He could only say that, living as he did in the immediate vicinity of St. James's Park, he had never observed any inconvenience arise from, the state of the water in the lake, nor had he ever heard from any one else that any such inconvenience existed. He knew well that their Lordships would only be too happy to contribute by any means in their power to the health of the Royal family; but, thank Providence, their Lordships had never heard of any ill-health in the family of Her Majesty. The second object was that very great convenience would accrue to skaters on the lake during hard winters. But he (the Earl of Malmesbury) thought that could be no very great desideratum, seeing that it was only about once in two years that any skating could be enjoyed in that part of the metropolis for more than a week; and he, therefore, thought that object would not at all justify the expense. The third point was that there should be a constant supply of water carried through the lake, the effect of which would be to render the water transparent, and, therefore, at once wholesome and ornamental. His impression, however, was that if by that expensive layer of concrete they prevented the natural percolation taking place through the mud and vegetation that usually collected at the bottom of pieces of ornamental water, and which had the effect of purifying the water, instead of putting a stop to the inconvenience of which complaint was made, the result would be very much to increase it. He knew, at all events, from a noble Friend of his who once filled the office of Commissioner of Woods and Forests, that that had been the effect of paving with bricks the bottom of the reservoir in the Green Park, and in consequence the reservoir had been filled
  288
  up altogether. He had another, though it might be a minor objection to the works in progress. Their Lordships all knew that however beautiful the pieces of ornamental water in St. James Park was, its attraction was very much enhanced by the water fowl which live upon it. If a collection of water fowl was in future to be maintained there, the department of Public Works would have to employ people to feed them regularly, now that all the aquatic vegetation which grew in the lake, and on which they mainly subsisted, had been cleared away and would be prevented from again accumulating. Again, he (the Earl of Malmesbury) had received letters from several of the residents in the neighbourhood of Queen's Square and near St. James's Park, stating that the works now in progress in the Park had completely drained their wells and rendered them useless. They had not complained of that, because they were ready to put up with a temporary inconvenience; but, he had been informed on competent authority that if the steam-engine now set up in the Park was to be permanently maintained, as he understood it was, to pump the water into the lake and through it, the wells in the vicinity would be rendered entirely dry by the process and the inhabitants there greatly inconvenienced. But he looked upon the works in question in a much more serious light. They were at best but a piece of fanciful extravagance on the part of the right hon. Baronet now at the head of the Department of Public Works (Sir B. Hall). Depend upon it, proud as we were of this country, and convinced as we were that it was all-powerful—he might almost say immortal—Parliament and the people at large must pay greater attention to the finances of the country than they had done, unless at some period, and probably not at all a remote one, they were prepared to encounter evils such as they had not hitherto experienced. He never saw a public document more likely to occasion well-grounded alarm to their Lordships and the country than the return of the money expended in Miscellaneous Services from 1838 to 1856, recently laid upon the table of their Lordships' House. It might be said that the £12,000 or £14,000 about to be expended on this lake was nothing to a country like this; but when they added to that a number of sums of smaller or greater magnitude, which made in the aggregate an enormous amount, he submitted it was not beneath

  289
  the dignity of their Lordships to take such a state of things into their consideration. He should, therefore, like to know whether the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Department of Public Works had received the permission of Parliament to incur the expense consequent upon the works in question; whether, in fact, the money had been regularly voted by the House of Commons for the purpose He (the Earl of Malmesbury) held in his hand the paper to which he had just referred, showing the great increase which had taken place in the Miscellaneous Estimates during the last twenty years. A noble Earl not then present said, on a former occasion, that he did not like to alarm their Lordships by comparing the expenditure of 1856 with that of 1838. But in his (the Earl of Malmesbury's) opinion, it was better to state the truth at once. Comparing the year 1838 with 1856, the increase in the expenditure on Public Works had been in round numbers not less than £463,000, the increase in Salaries had been £824,000, the increase in the expenditure in Law and upon Prisons, Convicts, &c., amounted to £1,600,000, the increase on Science and Education was £720,000, and the increase in Votes for what might be called temporary objects was £324,000. In other words, the total miscellaneous expenditure in 1838 was £2,500,000, and in 1856 £6,724,000, showing an increase in 1856, as compared with 1838, of no less than £4,224,000 on Miscellaneous Estimates alone, or a sum very nearly equal to the amount raised by the first property tax. Even if the whole of the expenditure in Law, Education, and Science were deducted, the increase under this head would be upwards of £2,000,000. Now, he wished to guard himself from being supposed to advocate any unnecessary reduction in the estimates for the army and navy. He was surprised to find a suspicion existing in some quarters where he least expected it, that noble Lords on his side of the House were anxious to cut down the expenditure for the effective services of the country. He repeated he was astonished to find such a suspicion entertained of men who were the first to dare, since the battle of Waterloo, to increase the effective strength of the army and navy, as they had done when in office in 1852. Although he was aware of the extent of political gratitude, and of the nature of political memory, he must say he was astonished to hear such charges emanating from such quar-
  290
  ters. He could only say, so far as his humble opinion went, he should be sorry indeed ever to see the army and navy again reduced to the state in which they were when the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) took office in 1852. He looked back to that time with a keen recollection of the great alarm that he and they with whom he acted experienced lest an emergency should arise in which those services, in the condition they then were, should be put to the test, and the thankfulness they felt that no such occasion arose at that period. He really believed that the Government, before entering upon such works as those in St. James's Park, could scarcely have counted the cost, so recklessly did they seem to be proceeding; and with respect to other items of expenditure incurred by the department over which the right hon. Baronet (Sir B. Hall) presided, he (the Earl of Malmesbury) thought he could show that the people did not get anything like their money's worth. Their Lordships knew that, on their private estates, the estimated charges on repairs of buildings of the simplest kind were 10 per cent.; but that would give them very little idea of the expense of keeping up a building in the style of architecture of the Houses of Parliament. He found a sum of £40,000 expended in 1855 for buildings in Downing-street. He could not understand how such a sum could have been laid out, inasmuch as that part of the Government property seemed to be in the same state of ruin in which it had been for many years. Again, what sum did their Lordships think had been spent three years ago in cleaning the statue of Charles I. at Charing Cross? Why, no less than £1,000. But an architect who had watched the works had told him he would gladly have done it for £120. Then he came to the monument at Scutari, on which £17,000 had been expended. The removal of the Science and Art Department last year cost £10,000; and £4,500 had been expended upon an entrance to St. James's Park, which had only produced two yellow walls. He did not grudge the money, because he thought the entrance a great public convenience; but he had stated enough to show that Parliament would not be doing its duty if it did not—he would not say oblige, but—assist the Government in carrying out a system of strict economy at this time. We had expended £76,000,000 on the war; we had increased the public debt by £40,000,000; and we had a

  291
  permanent charge of £1,500,000 as interest on the debt, besides something like £2,000,000 to be paid annually to a sinking fund for the purpose of extinguishing the debt. In the face of facts such as those, he submitted it was not beneath the consideration of Parliament to enforce the strictest economy in the public expenditure. Under a strong Government, as the present seemed to be, anything like extravagance was much more dangerous than it would be under a weak one, where the Opposition was as powerful as vigilant. He could easily conceive the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Department of Public Works desirous of distinguishing his tenure of office above that of all his predecessors. Nothing could well be more tempting than for a Member of a Government to stand in the middle of this metropolis, with the public purse in his hand, and say he would convert it into a city of palaces. It was the more natural to indulge aspirations so brilliant when that Member represented one of the great electoral divisions of the capital of England. He (the Earl of Malmesbury) could fancy such a man having before his eyes the glory of Florence and the Medicis, and wishing to become another Lorenzo, to go down to posterity as Benjamin the Magnificent; but he (the Earl of Malmesbury) thought the time had arrived when their Lordships ought to call upon the Government to impose some curb on the ambition of the right hon. Baronet, and some limit to the extravagant expenditure of the public money to which he (the Earl of Malmesbury) had ventured to call the attention of the House.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he should only so far detain their Lordships as to make a few observations on the small portion of the noble Earl's speech which related to the question before them. He was not surprised that the noble Earl should have thought it necessary to make the statement he had done, seeing he entertained the views he did upon the subject which he had brought under the consideration of their Lordships. The noble Earl alluded to the inconvenience to the Queen and the Royal Family likely to arise from the water of the lake; and he (Earl Granville) was sure the House and the public would willingly contribute to any public improvement demanded by Her Majesty's health. So far as he was aware, however, neither Her Majesty nor any member of the Royal family had made any
  292
  complaint on the subject; but then, on the other hand, he did know that the medical officers of the district had made many formal and official applications to the Government to remove the abominable nuisance arising from the impure state of the water in the Royal parks for many years past. He had it, too, on the highest professional authority that, bad as the water was in the other Parks, that of St. James's Park was in the worst state of all. Such appeals could not be neglected by any Government desirous to do its duty; and it became necessary to consider in what way the evil could be rectified. The noble Earl had complained of the irregularity on the part of the Government in proceeding with these works without first presenting an estimate to Parliament. He (Earl Granville) had, however, been told that it was impossible to frame an estimate of the expense necessary for clearing out the lake until the lake was first emptied; and when it was emptied and the mud laid bare, it was not reasonable or desirable to defer the work of cleaning out the lake for a whole year. This was the reason why no estimate had been presented last year for this purpose. When the lake was emptied it was found that the bottom was five feet lower than the Trinity House datum of high-water mark in the Thames; while such were the irregularities of the surface, there being in some places holes three feet deep, and in other places holes of a depth of nine feet, that it was impossible to clear out the lake unless artificially, the inequalities of course adding to the stagnancy of the water left. The noble Earl had said that the lining with concrete would make matters worse than before, and he had instanced the experiment made by a late Commissioner of Works for the purification of the water in the late reservoir in the Green Park. But the two cases were not similar. In the Green Park no concrete was used; bricks were there used without mortar, and the water used came from the Thames directly opposite a sewer, and brought up with it a smell that was anything but agreeable, and which was afterwards further improved by the dead cats, dead dogs, and he believed occasionally by a dead human being, which were found in that receptacle close to Piccadilly. The noble Earl had by no means proved that the measures now in progress would not succeed by citing an experiment of an opposite character. With regard to the noble Earl's regret at the

  293
  absence of the waterfowl which were so ornamental a feature in St. James's Park, he agreed with his noble Friend on that point. But he was happy to be able to comfort his noble Friend on that point by informing him that they had been removed to Kew pending the alterations, and that they would come back when they were completed. He could not see why they should not in future prosper as much in fresh water as in the stinking and offensive water in which they had been wont to disport themselves. In future, when it was necessary to flush out the lake no expense would be incurred, while at present an enormous expense was unavoidable when it was requisite to clean out the lake. The noble Earl had objected to incurring the expense of levelling the bottom for the sake of the skaters; but it must not be forgotten that much loss of life had occurred in skating which it was desirable to prevent if possible. He believed that the noble Earl had greatly overstated the expense in estimating it at £14,000, and that it would be under £11,500, and that this would comprise not only the clearing out of the lake, but the drainage of that which had turned out to be a swamp on each side of these ornamental grounds. Their Lordships would, he hoped, be of opinion, that this was not too large an expenditure when upon it depended not only the enjoyment but the actual health of a large district of the metropolis. His noble Friend had no doubt been quite right in introducing into his speech the extraneous topic of public economy, and he, therefore, would not complain of three-fourths of his speech; but still, he thought it would have been more fair if his noble Friend had given notice of his intention to refer to that topic, so that the Government might have had an opportunity of answering him. He would admit that, although their Lordships did not hold the purse-strings, they had no more important function than to warn Parliament, the Government itself, and the public when they saw any neglect of economy. He should be the last to urge their Lordships to abstain from giving useful advice on this subject when they saw occasion to do so, but for the sake of truth and the utility of such debates, it was desirable that the House should be in a position to know the pros and cons of the matters in dispute. The discussion of isolated points might give the public wrong impressions, and that might be avoided if due notice were given of points
  294
  to be discussed. Now, the topics to which the noble Earl had referred were not within his department, and he had had no opportunity of consulting with the department to which it did belong, from the circumstance of his not knowing to what points his noble Friend intended to refer. But he happened to know, that, although the estimate of a late Commissioner of Works for the repair of King Charles's statue at Charing Cross was £1,000, yet the sum actually expended was under £100, if not under £50. [The Earl of DERBY was understood to ask what became of the difference?] If, however, he should be wrong, and if the whole sum of £1,000 was expended, it only showed how important it was that notice of these questions should be given, in order to prevent Members of the Government who might not be connected with the department in question from falling into error in their statements. With regard to the expenditure in the public parks, and the tempting facility to which the noble Earl had alluded of spending the public money upon them, he begged to remark that while on the one hand there could be nothing more criminal than to add to the burdens of the people for the useless ornament of the metropolis, yet, considering that the metropolis was the capital of so large a kingdom, he believed that those who were not resident in it would feel disgusted if it were left in a neglected and unbecoming position. In many respects London, with its population of 2,500,000, was held to exhibit a great inferiority to many second-rate towns on the Continent; but it had one honourable and peculiar feature in its Royal parks, which, while they added to the decent splendour of the Crown, at the same time promoted the health and recreation of all classes of the metropolis. The Minister, therefore, was deserving not of censure, but of encouragement, who applied himself judiciously and economically to make those parks as healthful and as beautiful as possible. He believed that the noble Earl had entirely failed in making out any case against the department responsible for these works, and against the Government which sanctioned them, when he impugned, as uncalled for, the measures taken to purify the water used in, the centre of the metropolis for the ornamentation of the Royal parks.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, that if the Returns before their Lordships were correct, it would appear that grants of

  295
  money made by Parliament for carrying out a particular object were not always expended for that purpose; but that any surplus which might remain after the works for which the Vote had been taken had been completed might be expended in a way which Parliament had never contemplated. If £1,000 were asked for the cleaning of a statue, while only £50 were laid out, it was very easy to understand how it was that Sir Benjamin Hall was enabled to carry on the works which he had undertaken. He would not say that that was the mode in which those matters were really managed, but, if not, the documents which had been placed in their Lordships' hands were utterly valueless as the statement of the expenditure of the country, and ought to be taken back and revised by the Government. It was impossible not to perceive that sums of money far beyond what was required for the particular purposes were asked from Parliament, and that the Board of Works were thus enabled to hold in hand capital sufficient for purposes which were not expressed in the Vote. His noble Friend opposite had just stated that it was impossible to frame an estimate of the outlay necessary for clearing of the water in St. James's Park; but their Lordships must be perfectly aware that there was a very simple mode of calculating the sum which would be required for the purpose by taking the number of cubic yards in the space to be cleared, and estimating the expense in accordance with that number; and to say that a calculation could not be made of the contents of ten or twelve acres of water, gave an idea that administrative reform was especially wanted in some departments of the State. He should like to have some further information from his noble Friend upon that point, and should also wish to learn if he had consulted those deeply versed in subjects of that nature as to whether the circumstance of there being a growth of weeds in the water was sufficient to occasion that offensive vapour which generally arose from water in a state of stagnation? The position of the reservoir—the Green Park—to which reference had been made was upon high ground; so that it supplied water to all the houses below it, and it seemed to him to be a somewhat extraordinary piece of engineering to take away water which stood at so great an elevation. He might also say that the improvements in St. James's Park were being carried out, he believed, not by the piece, but by day
  296
  work, and of course under those circumstances a, very vigilant superintendence would be required in order to get the men employed to go through a fair amount of labour. These were points upon which he should wish to have some information from his noble Friend.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he had been informed that the consequence of allowing the weeds to accumulate in the water would be to create malaria, and that Sir William Hooker, a gentleman of great experience in such subjects, had entirely approved the mode in which the water had been dealt with. He must also inform his noble Friend that the improvements in the parks were not being carried out by means of day work. With respect to the charge of keeping the money granted to prosecute a particular work for the purpose of appropriating it to an entirely different purpose, he could only say that the thing was absolutely impossible, inasmuch as the Audit Office required that any sum which might not have been laid out on the proposed work should be repaid into the Treasury.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHregretted the noble Earl had not informed the House whether in the original estimate the cleaning of the statue which had been mentioned was or was not to be done by day work; for on no other supposition could it be assumed to cost £1,000. It was not, perhaps, exactly within their Lordships' province to enter into those details of public expenditure; but he trusted there would be found in the new House of Commons some one man who would be competent to undertake the duty in that respect which had been so long and so usefully performed by the late Mr. Hume, namely, to keep a constant watch over the public expenditure. How it was that the House of Commons could have voted a sum of £1,000 for the cleaning of a statue—unless, after it had undergone that process, they intended that it should be gilded—he could not understand.
  LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that the noble Earl near him (Earl Granville) had been to a certain extent necessarily unprepared for a discussion which had gone so much beyond the term of the notice given. The subject was also one which by no means related to the noble Earl's department. The House knew the pains he generally took to obtain the information required, to answer any questions put. Their Lordships ought not to feel any

  297
  great surprise at finding the President of the Council had committed a mistake in assuming that the surplus of a sum of money granted for one purpose could not, owing to the check which the Audit Office exercised over such transactions, be applied to another. It would be most fortunate if this were the case. Such, however, was not the fact, and he regretted to be obliged to inform their Lordships that no audit whatever was applicable to the great majority of the Votes which appeared in the accounts under their notice. There was, therefore, no attempt to audit the miscellaneous services, and no such check as his noble Friend supposed existed. But even in cases where an audit applied, it was not always sufficient to prevent misapplication of public monies. It rather exposed than prevented such misconduct. In order to show the House how dangerous were the consequences which were likely to result from the present state of our public expenditure, he might state the simple fact that, although £80,000 had been devoted to pay the expenses of the funeral of the late Duke of Wellington, yet there remained out of the sum £25,000, not one farthing of which had been employed for the purpose for which it had been voted, but which, during the last four years which have since elapsed, had been applied to an entirely different use. Nor has any knowledge of this fact been communicated on the face of the annual accounts; those accounts, on the contrary, went to prove that the £80,000 had been expended for the purposes of the Vote. The truth was at length discovered. In a debate in the other House of Parliament it incidentally transpired that this money had been thus misapplied, and then, after some difficulty, the matter had been set right, so far as the admission of the facts of the case to Parliament. This fact, therefore, showed that no sufficient audit existed by which this flagrant violation of law existed, or by which, when discovered, it could be atoned for. Now, what applied to this small sum applied equally to millions; and since his noble Friend (Earl Granville) relied so implicitly upon the efficiency of a supposed audit, it would be well for him to inquire how far such a system of audit existed, and how far it was effected where it did exist. The special question now before the House had not been properly dealt with. The charge against the Government was, not any indifference to the improvement of the park
  298
  that they had incurred this expense without an estimate and without proper Parliamentary Votes and authority. The excuse was most weak, he had
  almost said absurd. What could be thought of a Government which alleged that they could not obtain a proper estimate of the cost of such a matter? Surely there could not be any difficulty in obtaining an estimate of the expense of draining a pond; but failing that, they could have taken a Vote of money on account, which would at least have rendered the proceedings legal. Their Lordships knew how frequently money was placed at the disposal of Government for the purpose of meeting unascertained expenditure, as by the Civil Contingency Vote. Under no circumstances should the Government have expended money as they had expended this, without the authority or even cognizance of Parliament. It was unjustifiable to do so. Such a course was neither in accordance with the principles of the constitution nor with the rules under which public money should alone be expended. He thought that these violations of the Appropriation Act should not be lightly passed over. They constituted serious Parliamentary offences. This £25,000 to which he referred, had only been prepared to be repaid after the misapplication had been found out. However, these matters were not, it seemed, to be discussed during the present Session; but it seemed to belong to his official duties not to pass over this occasion without putting his noble Friend (Earl Granville) right in his belief in the existence in most cases, or in the efficiency in all, of the efficacy of the audit, as checking any excess of expenditure beyond the sums voted. He did not so much object to the Government of the day taking a Vote larger than the circumstances of the case might require; that might occasionally arise from the circumstances; but he did complain of the application of money voted by Parliament for one purpose to a purpose totally different, because in such cases it was more than doubtful whether the excess issued from the Exchequer was ever returned to the credit of the public; of this he complained as being contrary to law and to the constitution.
  THE EARL OF WICKLOWsaid, that, from his personal experience, he could bear testimony to the benefit derived by the people of this city from the works carried on by the Government in the parks. For the last few years an extensive system of

  299
  drainage had been carried on in all the parks, which had conduced greatly to the health and comfort of the people of the metropolis; and he was bound, moreover, to say that the improvements made by the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Board of Works had contributed very much to the convenience of the public. The new walks had been laid out with great skill and judgment; and many parts of the parks, which had been previously to their formation deserted, were now favourite spots.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, that, if he had understood the noble Lord (Lord Monteagle) correctly, he had implied that it was in the power of the Government of the day, if there was any excess upon any estimate, to spend that excess in any manner they might think fit, without responsibility to Parliament. Now he begged to say that, so far as his experience went, that course was not practised by Government; and he did not think that the experience of the noble Lord would enable him to tell their Lordships and the public that it was in the power of the Government to adopt such a course. If in one department there should be an excess upon one estimate, then the Treasury had power to authorise the expenditure of that excess for analogous purposes in that same department; but it was not competent to them to employ money voted for one purpose to objects totally different. With regard to the statue of Charles I., it was true that a Vote of £1,000 had been taken, but that had been done under the impression that the pedestal and foundation were insecure; but it having turned out that such was not the case, a considerably smaller sum had been expended. As to the surplus of £25,000 which remained after the expenses of the funeral of the Duke of Wellington had been defrayed, he would undertake to say that none of that money had been applied for any other purpose, although from the accounts not having been finally sent in, it had no doubt remained a considerable time in the Treasury. When, however, the accounts were audited the matter was put right.
  LORD MONTEAGLEwished to point out to the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) two errors into which he had fallen. He had stated that it was in the power of the Treasury in a case like that so justly complained of by the noble Earl (Lord Malmesbury) to apply sums of money voted
  300
  for one purpose to other purposes in the same department. Now, that was true with regard to the three great services; but even there it was only true in certain cases—the army and navy and the ordnance, because a provision to that effect had been introduced by Sir J. Graham, for the improvement of the Appropriation Bill; but the provisions of that Act did not apply in the slightest degree to the civil expenditure Estimates of the country. The miscellaneous service expenditure was entirely carried out by the Treasury, altogether out of the control of the Audit Office, and on no occasion were they as such submitted to the Board of Audit. It had been stated before a Committee of the House of Commons by the Chairman of the Board of Audit, that the appropriation of the Miscellaneous Votes did not come under the control of the auditors. The second error into which the noble Earl had fallen was, that in the case of the surplus of the sum voted for the funeral of the Duke of Wellington the matter would have been rectified when the accounts were audited. Now, if he would look into the subject, he would find that, as he had said, the whole of the Civil Estimates were entirely out of the control of the Audit Office, and therefore any check upon the part of that Office was impossible. He repeated, as an unquestionable fact, that a sum of £25,000, voted for one purpose, had from 1853 to 1857 been illegally diverted to another. [Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY: Not permanently.] Not permanently! No; but till the Treasury was found out. This largo sum had for a period of three or four years been applied, under the authority of the Treasury, to purposes wholly different from that for which it was voted by the House. This was not our constitution, and it was only from the fact of this illegal misappropriation oozing out in the House of Commons that any steps had been taken by which this illegal misappropriation might eventually be set right.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, the country had not been deprived of the sum to which the noble Lord referred. From his knowledge of the working of the civil departments he was certain that no department would undertake to apply the surplus of one vote in aid of the diminution of another without application being made to the Treasury, and the approval of the Treasury being obtained.

THE DESIGNS FOR, PUBLIC OFFICES.

  COMMISSION. QUESTION.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETrose to put a question to the Lord President, respecting the Commission on the Designs for Public Offices. He understood that within the last few days a Royal Commission had been appointed to examine and report on the designs now being exhibited in Westminster Hall. Their Lordships would remember that we had had such Commissions in former times, and that on their reports we had begun buildings which we had not finished yet, and which he was afraid we should continue to build for a long time to come, while no one could tell what we should have to pay before we saw their completion. He begged to warn the Government as to what they were about to undertake. He was afraid they were going to begin an expenditure which would be almost ruinous in the end. First of all they had invited architects to exhibit competing plans for public offices, and he believed all the way from the Horse Guards to Westminster was given up to the taste of the artist. Indeed, he understood Westminster-bridge was included also. Some time ago it was proposed to take down that bridge. Then the Government determined to repair it, and now again it seemed to be in contemplation to take it down. The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated in the course of the last Parliament, as a warning to the country, that the block of ground which was required for the scheme now proposed would cost £1,500,000. That was for the ground only. When we began these buildings (the Houses of Parliament) we had at least the ground, which belonged to the Government, a very small portion only having been bought. But if the plans now proposed were carried out, did anybody suppose that the ground could be bought at £1,500,000? Any one who knew the commercial spirit of this metropolis must be aware that the price of the land would be immediately greatly enhanced. But how far were these plans to be carried out? When the Commissioners had agreed upon a particular plan, Government would come down to Parliament for a vote of perhaps £50,000 on account this year, £40,000 next year, and so on for probably a period of not less than twenty-five years. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that to carry out the plans covering this block of ground would cost £5,000,000 or £6,000,000. Now, were we wise in beginning a scheme of this
  302
  kind? What he wished to know was, what instructions had been given to the architects as to the ground they were to cover; how far Parliament would be bound by the decision of the Commission; and how we were to guard ourselves against an expenditure which we had been told by high authority would amount to not much less than £5,000,000 or £6,000,000, on the ground that we had not made any objection or taken sufficient notice of the matter in time?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, his noble Friend warned the Government against beginning a system of ruinous expenditure; but he begged to remind his noble Friend that every step which had been taken by the Government in this matter had been in accordance with the recommendations of a Committee of the other House of Parliament, which recommendations had been also very generally approved by the Members of their Lordships' House. The first question asked by his noble Friend, as he understood it, amounted to this—whether any instructions had been given to architects as to what site they might occupy. He would answer that by going back to some of the steps recommended by the Select Committee of the House of Commons. They stated in their Report that great inconvenience at present arose from the bad arrangement of the public offices; from the necessity laid upon Government of hiring buildings in inconvenient situations at most exorbitant rates; and that it was most desirable, both for the convenience and efficiency of the public service and on the ground of economy, that there should be a concentration of the public offices, and that such concentration should be in the vicinity of Whitehall and the Houses of Parliament. The Committee described the position and extent of the sites which they recommended, which was bounded by the banks of the Thames, Richmond Terrace, Downing Street, and New Palace Yard; and they concluded by recommending that in case Parliament approved of the purchase of the site, the designs for the public offices should be submitted to public competition. The Government, acting on that recommendation, had issued notices, in which the architects of all nations were invited to send in designs for two different sites. One was for the block of buildings covering the whole of the larger site recommended by the Committee; another was for two offices—namely, the War-office and the Foreign-

  303
  office —on a smaller site adjoining Charles Street, of which the Government was now in possession, with the exception of a very small portion indeed. A Bill would be introduced to Parliament giving power to purchase that small portion of the smaller site to which he had just alluded, and when that Bill came before them, then would be the proper time for raising opposition to the scheme. As to the larger site, the Government had no plan of their own, and thought it best to leave the matter open to public competition, giving to architects an opportunity of showing how they would fill it up. Parliament could then choose whether they would go on with the scheme or with a part of it, having the public offices in a well-devised and properly-arranged manner, all connected with each other, instead of being, as now, disconnected. This would be matter for future consideration. It was, however, clearly laid down that the architects would have no claim whatever, except for the prize money offered for the several designs that might be approved. The plans would become the absolute copyright of the Government, to choose from the several plans the whole or such parts as might be found desirable; but the architects would not have the slightest claim to be employed in the execution of the works.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH, though holding in great respect Reports of Committees of the House of Commons, did not think it necessary for their Lordships at once to acquiesce in the Resolution to which the Committee had come in this instance. He had not had an opportunity of giving notice of the question, but he would take the liberty of asking the noble Earl opposite whether it was absolutely necessary to occupy Westminster Hall, and to engage in an undertaking which would involve all this enormous expense? It was quite obvious that it would be perfectly impossible to complete the contemplated buildings without incurring an expenditure which would probably exceed the whole amount raised by the property tax of 7d. in the pound for a whole year. Was it not possible to make some arrangement by which to avoid that enormous expense? The Houses of Parliament had been building ever since the year 1834, and they well knew to what an enormous extent the estimate of the architect had been exceeded. Some of their Lordships were, perhaps, pleased; others, however, like himself, were morti-
  304
  fied and disgusted by the extravagance of the expenditure incurred. He readily admitted the beauty of all that had been done; but unfortunately it had been overdone—the expenditure was unnecessary and out of all character for the purposes for which their Lordships assembled. No doubt there might be great convenience in having all the Government offices under the same roof; but then, there was the danger of fire, which, humanly speaking, it was impossible by any provision altogether to prevent. The force of a fire when it once took possession of a great building was such that none of their precautions could save it. That was one main objection to continuous buildings. But let them consider how they stood. They had been building for the last quarter of a century. In the course of that time they had so far added to Buckingham Palace as practically to have made it a new palace, of which the Crown was not before in possession. He recollected a King living comfortably enough in St. James's Palace, and keeping his court there. Give him leave to ask what was the use of that palace at the present moment? Why should they not appropriate it to public offices? All these buildings were the property of the Crown, just as much as the Royal Palaces; and was it possible to find any building more convenient for a Foreign-office, more especially for the receptions which were necessary in the Foreign-office, than St. James's? If the noble Earl at the head of the Foreign-office were permitted to occupy that palace he thought he might give a dinner on the Queen's birthday without the smallest danger. Then, what was the use of Marlborough House? They had some trash collected there which, he regretted to say, he had recently lost half an hour in inspecting, but which might be packed up and removed without the slightest inconvenience to anybody. He understood that Marlborough House was to be appropriated to the residences of the Prince of Wales. It was utterly unsuited for any such purpose. There was not a room in the house in which his Royal Highness could with convenience or propriety hold a reception. It was, however, admirably adapted for a public office, which required small rooms; whilst a residence for the Prince of Wales would require large rooms; in short, the Prince would not be able to occupy it with propriety or decency, unless at an expenditure of

  305
  £50,000 or £100,000 to render it habitable. Then there was Schomberg House, adjoining, the lease of which he understood was for sale. By the purchase of that, the communication between St. James's Palace, Marlborough House, and the Ordnance-office would be complete. Now, if the House of Commons would not do its duty in these matters, their Lordships, though it was foreign to their general practice, must interfere and call public attention to them. The public must not be left without one House of Parliament, at all events, to attend to that economy so important to the public interests.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, that one of the reasons given by the noble Earl for this immense expenditure was the saving of some £30,000 a year which was now paid for the hire of offices. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, however, had told them that if they followed out the proposed plan, the ground alone would cost a million and a half of money. Thus, before the foundation was laid, or one brick placed upon another, at 4 percent, they would have to pay £60,000 a year as ground-rent.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, what he had stated was, that Government had formed no intention to apply to Parliament for its approval of the large plan to which the noble Earl alluded.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that he admitted the necessity of some change as regarded the Foreign-office, for it was known that the present building had been in a very dangerous state for many years past. But as to the War-office, every day the accommodation wanted there was less and less, for every day the noble Lord at the head of that department was diminishing the army in a manner that to him (the Earl of Ellenborough) was most alarming. It was only a week ago that he saw it announced that there was to be a considerable diminution effected in every company of artillery. Now, for the last few years everybody had been calling out for an increase in this arm of the service; and they were told that it had been increased, and that the increase would be maintained. He could not, therefore, understand how with an army, now weak and daily diminishing, they were to have a staff constantly increasing and demanding larger accommodation.
  LORD CAMPBELLhad a word or two to say about the courts of justice. He
  306
  did not complain of the accommodation provided for the Judges, but the accommodation for the jury, who had to neglect their business for the purpose of attending there without remuneration, was most disgraceful. For visitors there was no accommodation whatever, and he really felt ashamed when distinguished jurists from America or the Continent were introduced to him for the purpose of witnessing the manner in which the proceedings in our courts of justice were conducted. He by no means wished to have a large expenditure incurred; but he really thought that what was decent and necessary for those who took part in the administration of the law ought not to be overlooked. The front of the law courts, they were told—and it was very obviously true—interfered with the regularity and beauty of Sir Charles Barry's building. He should rejoice to see some plan by which, without; transferring the law courts from Westminster Hall, where they were placed by immemorial prescriptive right, the objection might be removed.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEdenied that the Government bound itself to any great expenditure, because it said that improvements being necessary in some offices in that part of London care should be taken not to allow those improvements to interfere with any future plan that might be adopted.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he had been one of the first to call their Lordships' attention to the proceedings about to be taken with regard to the restoration of the public offices in Downing Street. It appeared to him that the scheme which the Government supported was one which would lead to a far greater expenditure than if they adopted the larger plan in the first instance. If the block of houses behind Downing Street was the proper site, it might be purchased upon much more advantageous terms now than on a future occasion. The purchase by Government of one side of one of the shabbiest streets in the neighbourhood would encourage the substitution of better houses for the old ones; thus, in the event of their hereafter requiring the remainder of the street, they would have to pay an increased value for it. Whether, therefore, they erected their public buildings in one place or another, or made them continuous buildings or not, it would certainly be economical and prudent that they should determine what ground they

  307
  could more advantageously acquire at one time than another. By proceeding piecemeal in a matter of this sort they would first improve the value of the property around, and afterwards have to pay for the increased value so created. If they got possession of the ground now there was no necessity for its being immediately appropriated. He was quite convinced that, if there was an intention to erect new public buildings in Downing Street, and obtain more ground for public offices, the truest economy would be to purchase at once the ground about Charles Street and Duke Street and the shabby buildings immediately adjoining.
  House adjourned at Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Twelve o'clock.