REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE. RESOLU- TIONS. (Hansard, 10 March 1857)

§ EARL STANHOPE,
in calling attention to the Report of the Select Committee on the Minutes and Journals of the House, said that in the absence of any material difference of opinion on the recommendations of the Committee he need not detain their Lordships at any length. Their Lordships were all agreed that the present mode of taking their divisions was extremely defective and unsatisfactory. The lists at present published in the newspapers contained constant errors and inaccuracies, of which frequent complaints were made, but which could not be avoided under the existing system. Some very interesting divisions were not recorded at all. The other night a division took place upon the Bill for altering the law of divorce. Ten noble Lords voted on one side and twenty-five on the other. The names of many Peers who voted on this division would have carried great weight, but the Lords who acted as tellers did not happen to take the names, and it was therefore impossible to say at present who voted. Great delay sometimes took place in the publication of the division lists. On the first day of the Session a division took place on the Amendment moved by his noble Friend opposite (Earl Grey) upon the Persian war; the list of the majority against it appeared next day, but the names of the Peers who formed the minority were not published until two or three days afterwards. The Com- 2113 mittee had agreed to recommend the adoption of the system which had been tried with such excellent effect in the House of Commons. It had been apprehended that the system in question would take up more time than the present mode; but from the evidence given to the Committee by an experienced and able officer of the other House (Mr. May), it appeared that a positive saving of time would accrue by adopting the House of Commons' mode of taking divisions. The Committee, however, thought it would be desirable to make an exception in the case of those Peers who, from age or infirmity, could not walk into the lobby without pain and inconvenience, and such Peers might be "told" in the House. He would mention a point to winch the Committee had not adverted; it had been hitherto held as a rule of the House, that the tellers should always be of equal rank; but he (Earl Stanhope) thought that this rule (for which not a shadow of a reason could be given) was frequently found to be attended with great inconvenience, and he proposed that it should not be necessary that the tellers should be appointed with any regard to their degree. It was also thought desirable that the names of Lords who make Motions for the production of Papers, or Motions of which they have given notice, should be entered on the Minutes. The Minutes of their Lordships' House were inferior to those of the House of Commons in some respects, they were in others superior. For example, they gave full information as to the progress of every Bill before their Lordships, so that the amount of business that had been transacted and the number of Bills still in progress through their Lordships' House could be seen at a glance. It was proposed that to these particulars should be added a notice of such Bills as had passed their Lordships' House, and had reached the House of Commons, with the fate of those Bills as soon as they were disposed of in that House. He trusted that their Lordships' Minutes and Journals would, if the recommendations of the Committee were adopted, become a faithful record of the manner in which their Lordships discharged the duty intrusted to them. The noble Earl concluded by moving that the Resolutions of the Committee be agreed to, and be made Standing Orders; and that the Standing Order No. 25, be vacated.

§ THE EARL OF EGLINTON
said, that he approved generally of the Resolutions 2114 proposed by the Committee, but wished to point out one or two matters to which their attention did not appear to have been directed. They did not state which of the galleries should be cleared, and which should not be cleared. Now some little delay was caused by the clearing of the gallery between the cessation of the debate and the putting of the Question, which gave time for Peers who might be in the library or lobby to return to the House; but if the galleries were not cleared, he thought there ought to be some fixed interval between the close of the debate and the Question, as in the Commons. The Resolutions recommended that the names of the Peers should be recorded according to the titles by which they sat, the higher titles appearing in brackets. He thought the higher rank ought to appear first, and the lower title to be inserted in brackets. He entirely approved of the Resolution which proposed to put an end to the provision that the tellers should be of equal rank.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR
said, he doubted if it would be worth while to take the course proposed in the Resolutions of adopting the House of Commons' practice of going into separate lobbies at divisions. Such a system might answer in the House of Commons, where there were hundreds of Members voting; but in their Lordships' House, where perhaps two or three Peers voted on one side, and half-a-dozen on the other, the formal proceeding of going out at one door and coming in at another might have a ludicrous effect. He doubted whether the desirable object of greater certainty in the taking and recording of divisions might not be attained without resorting to such a formidable process. He also thought that some rule must be adopted as to the time at which the Question should be put, which at present was regulated by the clearance of the galleries. In cases where there was only one Peer on one side, he did not see how two tellers could be appointed.

§ EARL STANHOPE
imagined that the Resolutions, in their present form would enable a division to be taken, even if no second Peer offered as teller. He thought that a trial might be made of the plan of permitting strangers to remain in the gallery during divisions, and if it was not found to answer they could revert to the present arrangement.