Lords Sitting of 27 July 1857

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Refomatory Schools; Commons Inclosure; Industrial Schools; Militia Ballots Suspension; Public Health Act (Aldershot).
3a Registration of Long Leases (Scotland); Inclosure Acts Amendment.
Royal Assent.—Grand Juries (Ireland) Act (1836) Amendment; Turnpike Trusts Abolition (Ireland); Constabulary Force (Ireland).

PUBLIC BUSINESS.
THE EARL OF DERBYrose to call the attention of the Government to the state of public business in the two Houses of Parliament. He had examined the Paper of business of the other House, and he found that for the present week there were set down for consideration no fewer than thirty-eight Bills, which had not yet been before their Lordships, independently of twelve others which had passed their Lordships' House. Of those thirty-eight Bills fourteen had not yet been read a second time, nineteen were in Committee, and five stood for third reading. It was perfectly well known that the whole of that evening would be occupied by a discussion in the other House which would not allow of the further progress of any disputed Bills; while Thursday and Friday next were set apart for the consideration of Bills which had been sent down from their Lordships' House—a very proper arrangement, provided it were not intended to go on afterwards with the other Bills; but if the other business were all to be proceeded with, instead of Parliament being prorogued by the 20th of August, as had been stated, the 20th of September would be a more likely day. He did hope that the Government would interfere to prevent that which of late years they had desired to prevent, and which had always been a great scandal and inconvenience—viz., the hurried manner in which Bills were pressed through the two Houses, more especially through their

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Lordships' House, at the close of the Session, when there were scarcely any Members present to discuss them. It was impossible that the great majority of the thirty-eight Bills could be sent up for a fortnight at least, and when he stated that on Friday last there were no fewer than twenty pages of Amendments to be moved and discussed upon those different Bills in Committee in the other House, he left their Lordships to imagine when it was likely that the Government would be able to prorogue. Under these circumstances he did not think that it would be an unreasonable thing to propose that their Lordships should not take Bills into their consideration, unless they were of great necessity and importance, after the first week in August; and he suggested to the Government that they should now state that they would not receive any Bills after Tuesday, the 4th of August, except those of indisputable urgency. This perhaps might induce the House of Commons either to curtail some of their business, or to get on with it a little faster than they seemed disposed to do at present.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the attempts made in previous Sessions by the noble Lord (Lord Redesdale) to mitigate the evil complained of had certainly been attended with success. With regard to the present Session, however, he had been in communication with the noble Lord, and it was felt that owing to the late period at which the Session began, and the uncertainty which prevailed as to the time of the prorogation, it was unadvisable that his usual Resolution should be moved; and the noble Lord, therefore, consented to waive it. He had no doubt that under ordinary circumstances such a Motion would be of considerable use. At the same time, it was somewhat undesirable that one branch of the Legislature should take upon itself to control to a certain extent the period at which Parliament should be prorogued without much attention to the state of public business, and, therefore, this power of fixing a day beyond which no new Bills should be read a second time ought to be exercised with considerable delicacy. Of the thirty-eight Bills which the noble Earl alluded to as yet to come before their Lordships, it must be remembered that some of them would be disposed of at morning sittings, and would therefore be presented to this House earlier than the noble Earl seemed to anticipate. At the same time, if a Motion to the effect suggested were submitted by the noble Earl, he should
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offer no opposition on the part of the Government. He should have preferred, however, that another week had been allowed, and, as a middle course, would suggest that the 7th, not the 4th, of August should be the day fixed.
THE EARL OF DERBYsaid he was quite satisfied to accept the modified proposition of the noble Earl, and fix the 7th of August. All he wanted was some definite proposition.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, that after what had fallen from the noble Earl opposite, he would now give notice that he should to-morrow move the adoption of the usual order with regard to Public Bills, fixing the 7th of August as the last day for second readings, and making that a Bill day. He was extremely glad that this conclusion was come to.

INDIAN ARMY.—MOTION FOR PAPERS.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that in calling attention to the events which had taken place in India, and in moving for papers relating to the Indian army, nothing could be further from his intention than to add to the embarrassment which the Government must now labour under with regard to Indian affairs. As far as he knew, the measures which had been taken by them were well calculated to meet for the moment the disasters which had taken place. He placed reliance on their energies, and full reliance on those of his noble Friend and relative the Governor General. He was sure that whatever was required by his noble Friend, and whatever the Government asked for from Parliament, would be accorded. Upon them rested the responsibility of dealing with the subject as it stood; nor was it his wish to add to their responsibility or to the difficulties in which they were involved. Their Lordships had, however, a duty to perform, far higher than that of putting down the mutiny. That that revolt would be extinguished before very long—whether in weeks or months—he had not the slightest doubt; nor could any rational man doubt that the power of the British army and the authority of this country would soon be completely re-established in India. But the real difficulty of governing India would not have ended, but have commenced, when the present mutiny should have been put down. It would be necessary for them to reconstruct their army in India. They might reconstruct it with the same materials, more or less, as they might deem right; but in his humble

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opinion it would not only be necessary to do that, but entirely to revise and recast the machinery by which our Indian territories were governed. It was absurd to suppose that the present machinery could go on. If anything were wanting to prove that, it would be found in some of the incidents which had recently occurred. Could anything be more ridiculous than to see, in the emergency in which he was afraid we were still involved with regard to India, the Minister of the Crown come down to Parliament for the purpose of gravely informing Parliament that it had pleased certain gentlemen sitting in Leadenhall Street, who were not responsible to the Crown or to Parliament for their conduct, to consent to the sending out of 4,000 men to provide for the necessities of the Indian service? No doubt, the Minister added that even if that consent had been refused, those troops would still have been sent out; but such a course would have been in defiance of the law. Was it rational to expect that such a state of things, which could only lead to embarrassment, could be of any possible use to the executive Government of the Crown? He did not want to pursue that subject any further, but he might add that the position in which the Board of Control stood to the Court of Directors was most objectionable. When any difference arose between the Court of Directors and the Board of Control the Board of Control could not legally send out any instructions, however proper, to the Governor General or to Her Majesty's servants in India without applying for a mandamus, compelling the Court of Directors to forward it. Of course the law would not be regarded for a moment if it really stood in the way of the public service. What a farce, then, it was to permit such a law to continue! Nobody could defend it for a minute, and a new state of things ought at once to be introduced. He was not, and never had been, insensible to the merits and glories, for such he would call them, of the East India Company, when the East India Company really existed. Its career was wholly without example, and such as its members, and our country might well be proud of. But that Company had virtually ceased to exist since 1833, when it was put upon an entirely different footing. We had had in the course of this year melancholy proofs that the government of India had been in a disgraceful state for the last twenty-five years. The disgraceful state of the Indian
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tribunals had been brought before Parliament, and not denied but acknowledged by Her Majesty's Government. No man could deny that the state of the Indian finances was deplorable, and he would venture to say that there never was such a wretched exhibition of the finances of any country as the annual statement of the finances of India, which showed a permanent deficiency without any plan for, or prospect of supplying the ways and means necessary to remedy that state of things. And to put the finishing stroke to the picture, let them consider the humiliating and absurd condition of our Indian army quite apart from the mutiny; and whatever that mutiny might have arisen from—whether from greased cartridges or not—it was evident that the bad state of the soldiery was of long standing, and ought not to have been overlooked as it had been. Let their Lordships consider for a moment what had been the general utility of the Indian army to the empire. If their Lordships read in history of a powerful monarch who had, in addition to his own native country, a vast territory containing upwards of 100,000,000 men, and with almost every resource within it that could make it great and powerful, and that when that monarch went to war he was unable to derive from that vast territory, governed by his lieutenants, consuls, governors, or call them what you would, one man, one gun, £1 of money, or one pound of gunpowder in support of his war, what idea would their Lordships form of the government of that country and that territory? But that was the case during the late war with Russia, so far as India was concerned. We could not bring a single soldier of India to aid in that war. One might have supposed that the Government who possessed that vast territory would have been able by its army to inspire feelings of respect at least, if not of terror, throughout Europe and Asia. But we could not draw the slightest support from that country. It was even with feelings of apprehension that they ventured to draw two of their own European regiments from India to aid in the war against Russia: so that in point of fact, when they were engaged in that war, so far from India being an auxiliary to us in Europe, and helping to defend Her Majesty's empire and honour, India was an impediment and a drain upon their resources. That fact primâ facie called for the consideration of every British statesman and of Parliament. There were a

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great many instances in history, with which several of their Lordships were as conversant or more so than himself, of great armies having deserted their standard, their Sovereign, and their country; armies had at times gone over to the enemy, or had revolted against the lawful authority for another dynasty; they had risen up against foreign conquerors on behalf of their country, when they thought that their revolt would be successful. But was there anything in the pages of history in the slightest degree, he would not say parallel, but even analogous to the existing state of things in India, in which 80,000 men had melted away from our command within the space of one fortnight, without any object, or purpose, or ostensible cause whatever? He defied any rational man to show that the mutineers had any definite joint object in the step which they had taken. Why, many of these men had already passed twelve or fourteen or more years' service towards obtaining pensions for their lives. Let their Lordships recollect that this army was raised, not by conscription, but by voluntary enlistment; admission into its ranks was regarded as a prize by the natives of the country; and yet, of this army, without any cause—for he defied any one to say that there was any religious grievance in the matter, so far as the great body of the men were concerned (supposing the Hindoos had been subjected to greased cartridges, the Mahomedans would not have felt that to be a grievance, and of course the Hindoo soldier of all things had no desire to put himself in subjection to a Mahomedan instead of a Christian conqueror)—of this army, he said, 80,000 men had, without any assignable reason, passed away from our command. Was not the primary cause of that defection evident? Was it not owing to the way in which that army had been mismanaged? It was mismanagement that had brought that army into its present mutinous condition, and that had made these men almost like a pack of schoolboys, excited, God knew why, and God knew by whom! but certainly without any definite object or great leader, to revolt. They had risen up against us; some of them had committed horrible and barbarous murders, while others showed great personal attachment to their officers; but had gone from our standard, some to their homes, and others it was impossible to say whither. To what was that owing but to the mat-organization of that army? Now, that was especially
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a matter in which the Court of Directors, above every other body, had the power of interfering. That army was directly officered by the East India Company. There was always a military committee of the East India Directors sitting, and, many of the gentlemen who served in that Direction had been in that army. They ought to have the greatest interest in it, and of all the branches of the East India Government they ought to be held the most responsible for the present state of things. But what was most reprehensible was the fact which has now come to light, that nothing had been done to avert that evil which, when it did happen, those who knew anything at all about the Indian army said they were not surprised at. I am not a prophet after the event. He was in a position, if necessary, to show their Lordships a letter written by an officer of fourteen years' experience in India—not an officer in high civil employment, but one who has lived with his regiment, and who made himself acquainted with the feelings of his soldiers and of the army in general in India. That letter was written more than a year and a half ago. It referred to a series of observations which he had made in previous letters upon the state of the army; and ended by saying, "For my part I believe that we are upon the brink of a general military outbreak." But was that all? Did not the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Ellenborough), in a most able and instructive speech, delivered by him about ten days ago, clearly state to their Lordships that he was informed while in India that the army in Bengal was in a state of insubordination? Was it not a matter of history that that army required particular care? And yet not one step had been taken to effect an improvement. Various causes had been assigned for this mutiny. Among others, it was said that, during the late war with Russia, foreign emissaries were employed in India in the endeavour to spread disaffection among the native soldiers. Whether that were true or not he could not say, but he believed that no power could stir up revolt among our troops if they were properly managed. That hypothesis, therefore, wholly failed to account for what had happened. There were various other causes assigned with which their Lordships were familiar. Among these was the way in which troops were constantly detached to perform duties in which the police ought to be employed. Changes, too, were made

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in regard to their pensions which were not sufficiently explained to the men. It was also well-known that the spoliation of the native chiefs and the annexation of their territories to ours had had great effect in producing a bad state of feeling in the army. The natives of India, it should be remembered, had formerly been went to look upon us, not only as a most powerful, but as a most just people. A gallant friend of his, who had served in India, told him that he was in the habit of associating with the soldiers of his regiment and of ascertaining their feelings, and that he never found anything so difficult to answer as the questions they put to him touching the reason why the King of Oude was deposed and his territory annexed to the British dominions. There were many Oudeans in our army, and he was informed that recent events in their native country had been viewed by them with deep dissatisfaction. But the principal cause of the disaffection was undoubtedly the manner in which the army was officered. No doubt the Court of Directors chose for the service young Englishmen possessed of the average qualities of their countrymen. The fault lay in the system of employment and promotion when those officers reached India. Among the various valuable suggestions for the improvement of the Indian army, made by the late Sir Charles Napier in his evidence before their Lordships' Committee, was one for requiring young cadets, before going out to India, to pass some time in the army in England in order to acquire a knowledge of their regimental duties. The reason why this was not carried out was because it was only after a certain period of service in India that a person became eligible for those civil situations for which every young officer was looking out. The object of the parents of a cadet and of those who gave him his appointment was that he should hurry out as quickly as possible and qualify himself for a civil situation at the earliest moment. What was the effect of thus draughting the officers of the army into the diplomatic and civil services? Sir Charles Napier gave an account of his visit to a battalion of 800 men to which there were only two European officers. One of them was a young ensign not then released from drill; and if anything had happened to his senior, this boy, who could not pretend to drill a company, or perhaps not even to march a guard, would have been placed at the head of 800 men, and in command of many old
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native officers who thoroughly understood their duty. How could we expect to find regiments in a proper stale of discipline or organization under such a system? He had lately seen a friend of his whose son was an officer in one of the Indian regiments, and on expressing sympathy with what he thought must be the natural feelings of the father at the danger in which his son was placed his friend coolly replied:—"Oh, I am not at all alarmed, my son has not been near his regiment for twelve years." On his hinting that the son, being a captain, would in the present crisis be ordered to join his regiment, the father added, "Oh, no, there is no danger of that; my son is engaged in an important civil employment collecting the revenue, and he cannot be removed from where he is." Was it surprising if an army so conducted could not be relied on in time of trouble? This state of things appeared to have been entirely ignored by the Court of Directors. In Lord Dalhousie's Minute of the 28th of February, 1856, which was laid on their Lordships' table in April or May last, there was this extraordinary passage:—
"If large improvements have been made under the various departments of civil administration during the last eight years, the military branch of the service has received its full measure of attention and amendment. The position of the native soldier in India has long been such as to leave hardly any circumstances of his condition in need of improvement."
Then followed forty-eight paragraphs, relating not to the native but to the European soldier, or to the military establishments. They were told that the military branch of the Government had received its full measure of "attention and improvement;" and yet a few months later they had 30,000 men, the majority of whom had been long in the service, leaving their standard without any ostensible cause! This subject, however, had not escaped the attention of the present Governor General. Lord Canning assumed the Government of India in March, 1856, and it soon became evident to him that all was not right; for as early as April the 5th in the same year his Lordship wrote home to the Court of Directors that, "Your Hon. Court will observe that, in October, 1855, the late Governor General recorded a Minute in consequence of the strong representations of the late Commander in Chief as to the paucity of officers for the demands of the public service." So little did the Directors know whether the Bengal army required supervision that they ordered

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increased employment upon civil service for officers of that army. The Governor General having to provide for the government of the country, enormously increased in population, with the same civil force that existed many years ago, was authorised to take from the regiments every field-officer if he chose, and a large proportion of captains and lieutenants. What was this but a wilful and monstrous exposure of the army to the risk of insubordination? The Directors said,—
"That the want is pressing we fully admit. It has been necessarily occasioned by the requisitions for staff and civil services, and for local and irregular corps, which could only be effectually met by transferring to them officers of the very class and description who are most urgently required for regimental duties, and who are best qualified to command the respect and to conciliate the affections of every class of the native soldiery. These considerations would have induced us to determine to allow two additional captains to every regular Native regiment in our service; but in the actual condition of the finances we must confine ourselves to sanctioning your appointment of one additional captain and one additional lieutenant to every regiment of native infantry and cavalry of the regular formation in the three Presidencies, and of two additional captains and two additional lieutenants to each European regiment; to have effect from the expiration of one month from the date of your receipt of this despatch."
What a system of Government! It appeared by the paper he held in his hand that at the time the Directors were adding to the number of the officers of regiments they were reducing the number of soldiers. Such management of an army was never exhibited by any Government before. It was not surprising that the recent calamity should have occurred under such management. He did not pretend to say what remedy should be applied, but he had seen some rather wild notions put forward which he hoped would not take much hold of the public mind. He had seen it stated that the Government ought to do away with the high-caste Brahmins and Rajpoot soldiers; that they ought to maintain 60,000 European troops in India, and increase the number of irregular soldiers. But if their Lordships would read the history of the Indian army, written in 1817, by Captain Williams, they would find that the high-caste Brahmins and Rajpoots were enlisted with a particular design. They were of a superior class and of a peculiar religion, and they were encouraged to enlist because it was thought that they might counterbalance the great number of Mahomedans in our service. He did not say that they ought
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to be continued for ever in our employment if they were not wanted, but Sir John Malcolm, a competent authority, had said of them, in a paper known to be written by him although it did not bear his name:—
"The Rajpoots want energy, but seldom, if ever, courage. It is remarkable of this class that, even when their animal spirits are so subdued as to cause a cessation of exertion, they show no fear of death, which they meet in every case with surprising fortitude or resignation. Such is the general character of a race of men whose numbers in the Bengal army amount to 30,000 or 40,000, and of whom we can recruit to any amount in our provinces. But this instrument of power must be managed with care and wisdom, or that which is our strength may become our danger."
It was to be regretted that such opinions had not been attended to. He must remind their Lordships that the late Sir Charles Napier stated before a Committee of that House in 1852, that if he remained twenty months in India and bad the power to organize or drill them, he should not be afraid to go into action with Sepoys alone. And elsewhere he said, that, properly drilled and organized, the Native troops "would march to Moscow." He trusted then that Parliament and the country would not be too ready utterly to condemn these men. With regard to the irregular troops, he believed that they were valuable forces, but they were subject to the same influences as the Brahmins and Rajpoots, and had shown instances of desertion as extraordinary and of mutiny as striking. In the Nepaul war in 1815, under Lord Hastings, when 6,000 irregular infantry were detached from the main body, they encountered a severe service, and fought from noon until eight o'clock the next morning. They gained a great victory, but sustained a heavy loss. They afterwards made a claim for bloodmoney upon the number of men they had lost, and when it was refused they deserted in a body and went home. Then, if we had 60,000 Europeans in India, who was to pay the cost? It might be that they would be cheaper than three times that number of Native troops, but look to the drain of such a reinforcement upon the population and the regular army in this country. It was already felt as a great hardship when a regiment was kept a day longer in India than its term of service, and such a destination for so large an army could not but affect recruiting at home as well as diminish the number of men available for European purposes.

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He had a great respect for the prolific powers of this country, but he doubted whether England, in addition to her other requirements, could send out British-born troops enough to India to keep down a population of 150,000,000 men. India, in such a case, would not be a valuable acquisition. India ought, herself, to maintain the troops she requires for foreign or internal purposes—but in order to do that the system of her Government must be altered. The truth was that British India belonged to the British Crown, and must be administered by a Minister of the Crown responsible to Parliament. There was no reason why Parliament should not exercise the same right of interference with regard to India as it did with regard to all other of Her Majesty's dominions. He had heard old Indians say that if Parliament meddled with India, party influences would prevail and India would be ruined. He never heard greater nonsense. That was nothing less than an attack upon our whole system of constitutional government. History bore testimony to the fact that when the East India Company were making their greatest struggles in India, when Clive was running his wonderful career, and when Warren Hastings, the Marquess of Wellesley, and Lord Cornwallis administered the affairs of that country, those affairs were much more under the control of Parliamentary influence than was the case at the present day. He hoped that Her Majesty's Ministers would be prepared to meet Parliament next Session with some scheme by which the administration of those territories belonging to the British Crown in India would be brought more directly under the direction of the Government of England. If, however, unhappily they should fail to take that course he felt assured that the Legislature would take the matter into its own hands, and would not suffer such practices as those to which he had adverted as prevailing in the British army in India to continue—practices owing to which those officers to whose keeping great interests were committed were withdrawn from their legitimate profession, for mere purposes of personal profit and advantage. The papers for which he asked would, he anticipated, throw light upon the discussion upon the affairs of India which must take place next year, and he therefore trusted that the Government would have no objection to their production. The noble Marquess concluded by
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moving, That there be laid before this House Copies of the Correspondence of the Court of Directors with the Board of Control and with the Governor General of India, relating to the Amount of European Forces, either of the British or the Indian Army, to be maintained in that Country since the 1st of April, 1856, or relating to the Employment of Military Officers upon Political or other Civil Services.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that since the noble Marquess had given notice of his Motion his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Control had laid upon the table of the other House of Parliament papers relating to India, and among them all the recent despatches relating to the question of the proportion which existed between the European and Native troops in India. Those documents would, he might add, be laid before their Lordships, and the object which the noble Marquess had in view would thus far be attained. Having made that statement, he might be permitted to observe that, whatever might be the duty of an independent Member of either branch of the Legislature in relation to the discussion of the causes of the great calamity which had lately occurred in India, it would clearly be an act of imprudence upon the part of the Government to enter into any premature debate upon that most difficult subject, demanding, as it did, the most anxious and lengthened consideration. The propriety of abstaining from all comment upon it would be still more apparent when their Lordships reflected upon the different nature of the various suggestions made, in almost every instance with an equal degree of confidence, which were promulgated in the public journals—as to the causes to which the present state of things in India was to be ascribed. Those suggestions appeared to take their colour from the political and party feelings of the individual from whom they happened to emanate. One of them was to the effect that the mutiny in India was to be attributed to the manner in which England had dealt with the native States in that country, and in particular to what was designated the cruel injustice to which the Ameers of Scinde had been subjected. Another reason for the existing disaffection was alleged to be the policy which Lord Dalhousie had adopted in annexing new territories to our possessions in the East, the annexation of Oude having been specially referred to as having caused the greatest dissatisfaction among the natives

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of India. A third reason which had been urged was the keeping up of so many Indian States, which were, it was contended, a source of weakness to the Company; while a fourth reason was, it was alleged, to be found in the rapacity and injustice with which the Native Princes had been treated. Now, in order to prove to their Lordships how little force there was in the last-mentioned reason at all events, he might refer to a fact which had been mentioned in the intelligence conveyed by the last mail, and which was to the effect that some months since the Rajah of Gwalior had visited Calcutta and had been received by Lord Canning with every mark of attention and respect—a line of conduct which his noble Friend had carried to so great an extent that he had actually been attacked by the press in Calcutta for the course which he had pursued. His noble Friend, however, had not only paid the Rajah every attention to which as a person who governed his own territory in the most satisfactory manner he was entitled, but had taken occasion to inform him that the people of this country would prefer to see the Native princes ruling their own possessions well, to seizing upon them in the name of the Crown of Great Britain. That was the spirit in which his noble Friend was disposed to deal with the Native princes; and he might add that in the case of the Rajah of Gwalior the result of such a policy had turned out to be most beneficial, inasmuch as upon the breaking out of the mutiny he had been among the very first to place the forces under his control at the disposal of the Governor General. It was, however, alleged, in addition to the reasons to which he had already adverted, that the cause of the recent disaffection in India was to be traced to the circumstance that no protection had been afforded to the ryot against the oppression of the zemindar—an evil which, among many others, had been mentioned in the petition which had in the early part of this year been presented from the Christian missionaries of the Presidency of Bengal as calling for redress. Hardly, however, had that petition been presented, when another had been laid before the East India Government from the planters and zemindars, ascribing all the evils of which the missionaries complained to their own conduct in endeavouring to force Christianity upon the Natives. Such were the conflioting statements which had been made upon the subject of the origin of the recent
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mutiny in India. The noble Marquess had insisted that if there was one cause more than another that had led to that mutiny it was the small number of European officers who were doing regimental duty in the Bengal army. That might have been a great evil, but its existence was not, he maintained, as the noble Marquess seemed to imagine, to be laid altogether to the charge of the East India Company. They could have had no selfish motive in limiting the number of European officers in India, inasmuch as it was clearly their interest that the amount of patronage in their hands should be increased instead of diminished. That the number of those officers was so small was in a great measure to be attributed to the very large addition to our Indian possessions which had within the last thirty or forty years taken place; and was it, he would ask, the fact, that the acquisition of that new territory was fairly to be ascribed to the policy which the Court of Directors had shown themselves desirous to pursue? He, for his own part, believed the contrary to be the fact, inasmuch as he was of opinion that the annexations which had of late been made to our territories in India were the result of necessity, and of the direct action of those English statesmen who had been sent out to India as Governors Generals by the English Government. The noble Marquess, however, had made one observation in which he must express his entire concurrence, and which was to the effect that the Government of this country ought not, in consequence of recent events in India, to abandon that confidence in its native army which we had so long entertained. It by no means followed, he should maintain, from the breaking out of that mutiny, that it was connected with any deep-laid scheme against British authority. We know that even in civilized countries there were occasions in which great movements took place as it were by sudden impulse, and were communicated with marvellous rapidity. Such was the case in 1848, when a sudden commotion arose, which spread itself over the whole of the Continent, and even the British Government, stable as it was, experienced considerable inconvenience, if not alarm. For his own part, he thought it quite possible, that, considering that the question of caste had been touched upon, the insurrection might be the result of a momentary panic, and not of any organized conspiracy against

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the English Government. The arrival of the next mail was looked forward to with anxiety. It might turn out that the evil was more deeply seated than he at present believed it to be, but he thought that their Lordships and the public ought not too hastily to abandon the opinion that, under a better system, and with greater precautions, it was possible to restore the Indian army to that state which had enabled it to reflect such glory on our arms. In the mean time the duty of the Government was clear, and that was to put down the insurrection with a strong hand, and he was sure that their Lordships would agree with him that no exertion should be spared and no sacrifice not submitted to in order to maintain that empire in India which had cast so much glory on this country, and the abandonment of which would not only be a disgrace to England, but a calamity to mankind.
Motion agreed to.

THE SUCCESSION DUTY.

  PETITION OF THE HON. L. S. W. DAWSON DAMER.
  LORD REDESDALE presented a petition from Captain L. S.W. Dawson Damer complaining of the interpretation put upon the Succession Act by the Comptroller of Legacy Duties in regard to settlements made before the passing of that Act, and said that the working of the present Act was in many cases productive of great hardship. By the Act imposing succession duties, those duties were fixed at 1 per cent in the case of a son, 5 per cent in the case of a collateral relative, and 10 per cent in the case of a stranger. It happened, however, in practice, that the authorities at Somerset House ruled that when a son took property after his father, in accordance with a previous settlement, the duty which he had to pay was not 1 per cent, but the percentage which would be due had he taken the property at once without the intervention of the father. Lady Caroline Damer had devised an estate to a Colonel Damer for life, with remainder to the first and other sons in tail. Colonel Darner had by a disentailing deed, executed before the Succession Duties Bill came into operation, barred the entail. It had been held that the son of Colonel Darner was liable to pay a higher duty than 1 per cent., and certainly such a decision appeared to him to be an injustice, because it appeared clear that
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  where a new title had been created it was upon that that the duty ought to be levied. It appeared to him that the whole question was one which required revision, or at least that the Act itself should be made clear and intelligible, instead of being left as it was, intricate and confused.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid he thought the word "hardship" as applied to the effect of the Comptroller's decision a harsh one. If a person in the Comptroller's situation was lax in his duty to the Crown, persons were not likely to come forward and complain of that; but any one who had a tax to pay was generally ready to make complaints of the way in which it was levied. The amount of money received by the succession duties went to show that the Act did not press with that severity that some of their Lordships had expected. Mr. Gladstone had calculated the produce of this tax at £2,500,000; but the opponents of the measure said that it would realize a great deal more. However, it now turned out that only a quarter of that sum was received. The amount might increase to one-half in course of time; but even on that assumption he thought he was now justified in assuming that the operation of the tax would be more agreeable than had been anticipated. Forming an opinion on the statement made in Mr. Damer's petition, so far as he (Earl Granville) could judge of it from hearing it read, he thought that the Comptroller's decision was a correct one; for if the act of a father and son joining together in disentailing deeds were allowed to affect the amount of duty, the tax would be evaded in nine cases out of ten. As to the interpretation to be put on the Act, the authorities atSomerset House were advised by a proper legal functionary, and if there were any complaints against his decisions, they should be brought forward specifically. Considering that the Act was of a complicated character, and contained no less than fifty clauses, he thought it extraordinary that it had not led to more litigation. There had been only three cases in which appeal was made to a court of law. In all those the Crown had succeeded, but had refused to take advantage of the decisions by receiving costs. Under these circumstances, he did not think it could be said that there was any hardship in the way the tax was collected.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he did not think that his noble Friend (Earl Granville) had taken a correct view of the case

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  stated in Mr. Darner's petition. He the (Earl of Derby) recollected that when the Bill was before Parliament objection was taken to its restrospective character. It was said that it would be a great hardship to make its provisions apply to settlements actually in existence at the time of the passing of the Act, and it was proposed that they should only extend to settlements made after the Act. He did not say that it was unreasonable to object to that proposition, because its effect would have been to defer the operation of the Act for a very long time; but the petition read to their Lordships by his noble Friend (Lord Redesdale) applied to a settlement that was null and void at the time of the passing of the Act, and, consequently was not in existence when the Act passed. There was a settlement at one time in existence, but before the passing of the Act the father and son join in cutting off the entail existing under the settlement. Yet, when the heir succeeds, he is charged as if he succeeded under the settlement so done away with. He (the Earl of Derby) admitted that in the discussions on the Bill there was a good deal of objection taken to allowing persons to cut off entail after the passing of the Act; but, that was not the case now before their Lordships, which was one of a settlement put an end to before the passing of the Act, and now held to be revived for the purposes of the succession duty.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he would not, of course, presume to give a legal opinion on a case the facts of which he had not looked into; but from the statement in Mr. Damer's petition he thought the decision of the Comptroller a correct one. After the execution of the deed by which the son was to take an absolute estate, the question arose whether the son would not take by virtue of the will under which his father had derived it; and, on the whole, he (the Lord Chancellor) thought the Comptroller had taken the right view of the matter.

INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, there were a great many institutions in the country for the reception of criminal children, and it was very desirable to encourage the establishment of industrial schools to which vagrant children should
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  be admitted who would otherwise be trained in habits of vice. This object was proposed by the Bill of which he now had charge, and which was originally introduced in the other House by Sir Stafford Northcote, but was afterwards (Sir Stafford not being returned to the present Parliament) taken up and passed by Mr. Adderley. The provisions of the Bill were entirely of a voluntary character, but these institutions would be entitled, on being duly certified, to the receipt of grants from the Privy Council. Parents were made responsible for the good behaviour and might be called upon to contribute to the maintenance of their children while in these schools. He hoped their Lordships would feel no hesitation in giving this Bill a second reading, and in Committee such alterations could be introduced as were thought necessary.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
  LORD BROUGHAMsaid, the loss to this and every other good cause by the non-return of Sir Stafford Northcote to Parliament was great, but his place, so far as regarded this measure, had been well supplied by Mr. Adderley, who in carrying the Bill through the other House had struggled successfully against considerable difficulties. As to its details there might be some doubt, but there could not be the least with respect to its principle. A noble Friend of his (Lord Stanley) whose absence from this House he rejoiced at, inasmuch as he could not sit here until his noble Friend (the Earl of Derby) was no more, had taken a very active and useful part in the discussion upon this Bill, the subject of which was very minutely considered at the great meeting at Bristol, over which Lord Stanley had with such ability presided. He (Lord Brougham) hoped there would be no objection to the second reading.
  THE EARL OF DERBYentirely approved the principle of the Bill, but as probably he should not be in the House when it was in Committee, he wished to call attention to the definition of the word "parent," which was made to include any one upon whom an order of affiliation had been made. That certainly was introducing a new definition into our law, and he thought the point worthy of consideration.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the whole House To-morrow.
  House adjourned at Half-past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow Halt-past Ten o'clock.