Lords Sitting of 14 July 1857

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2° Representative. Peers (Ireland); Joint-Stock Companies; Registration of Long Leases (Scotland).

MILITARY EDUCATION—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEasked the noble Lord the Secretary at War, whether Her Majesty's Government had definitively settled the plan of education for young officers entering the army, and, if so, what was the plan in all its details.
LORD PANMURE: The question which my noble Friend has put to me, would require a very long explanation from me, if I entered into details; but I am happy to inform him—of what I dare say he is aware—that the education of officers of the army is (of course under the responsibility of the Secretary at War) placed in the hands of the Commander in Chief. The Commander in Chief is president of a council which consists of three members besides himself—one of whom is a general officer of great learning as well as military acquirements; another, is an eminent officer of Engineers; and the third, is an officer who has on many occasions distinguished himself. This council has made to me its first Report, which addresses itself to the point to which my noble Friend has referred—namely, the education of candidates for the military service. I have expressed my concurrence in that Report. It has been submitted to Her Majesty for approval, and as soon as that
1424
approval has been expressed, I will lay it on the table of your Lordships' House, in which case all persons will be made fully aware of the details of the plan.
In reply to a further question from the noble Earl,
LORD PANMUREsaid, it was not intended to continue Woolwich and Sandhurst exactly in their present condition. It was intended to amend them both, so that officers might obtain commissions in the Artillery and Engineers, as well as in the line, from them.

THE INDIAN MUTINY.
EARL GRANVILLE,in presenting (by command) correspondence between the Indian Government and the Court of Directors said, that since last night Her Majesty's Government had received some further intelligence on this subject, which, with their Lordships' leave, he would read. [The noble Earl accordingly read a series of despatches, addressed from various places to the Government officers at Bombay].
JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving the second reading of the Bill, said, that the object of the measure which had been sent up from the other House of Parliament was substantially to give to creditors of joint-stock banks that became insolvent the same relief as they would have against an ordinary bank when it became bankrupt. The law at present was in an anomalous condition with regard to these banks. If a joint-stock bank became insolvent, a shareholder might obtain a winding-up order, and the Master in Chancery, or the Chief Clerk of the Vice Chancellor, whose duty it was to wind up these affairs, had the power of making calls on all the shareholders in order to raise a fund to pay the creditors; but that was a proceeding to which the creditors were not parties; it was a mere proceeding of the shareholders inter se. The object of the present Bill was, as far as possible, to remedy this defect, to give to the creditors the power of taking care that in making the calls proper steps might be taken to seize the whole of the property of the shareholders if need be,

  1425
  in order to raise a sufficient sum out of which the creditors might be paid in full. For this purpose it provided, in the first section, that the creditors might summon a meeting, and, if two-thirds in value thought fit, they might appoint a person to represent them in the matter of winding up the concerns of the company. If the company had become bankrupt, then there was no necessity for the choice of a representative, because the assignee in bankruptcy would perform those functions. The second section provided, that where a company had become bankrupt, and there had been a winding-up order, the assiguee might proceed with it. Then there was a provision which gave to the representative the power to make any compromise, whether for the discharge of the liability of all the shareholders or of any one of them, and if the compromise were approved by a Judge, it should he valid and binding. Then there was a further provision of great importance. By the law as it at present stood, any creditor of a joint-stock bank, when he recovered judgment against the public officer of a bank, had a right to take out execution against any of the existing members of the corporation, arid if he were able to show that he had exhausted the resources of all those members in seeking to obtain satisfaction of his claim, then he might proceed against parties who were not existing members, but who had been so within the limit of three years. Practically this last had been found to be a delusive remedy, because it was a remedy only on the creditor being able to satisfy the Court that he had exhausted all reasonable means to obtain payment from all the existing members, and in a large joint-stock banking company that was almost an impossibility. In order to remedy this inconvenience, the Bill provided that where there had been a compromise entered into, such as he had already referred to, that was to be deemed proof that all reasonable steps had been taken to obtain payment from the existing shareholders. These creditors would therefore obtain a locus standi, whereby they would be in a position to enforce their rights against those shareholders who had ceased to be members of the company within three years. There was another provision to prevent the shareholder of an insolvent joint-stock bank from going out of the country without giving security for the repayment of the debt or of his share of the fund to be contributed. In the course of the last
  1426
  year or two there had been two memorable failures of joint-stock banks which had caused great disaster, and been the ruin of a great many honest and industrious depositors. The position the creditors of these banks was placed in was this:—they had the right to bring an action against the public officer of the bank, or in the case of a winding-up order, against the official assignee, and having recovered in the action, they might by scire facias get execution against any of the shareholders, and if that did not satisfy them, against another; and therefore, all the creditors who resorted to these steps might take any number of proceedings, and run a sort of race against each other as to who should obtain payment first. Now, it was said that the effect of the measure would be to do an injustice to those creditors who might have obtained a judgment by placing them upon a level with all the other creditors; but that was a charge which, in his opinion, the whole tenour of recent legislation, in relation to similar questions, tended to disprove. The Bill would have the effect of enabling two-thirds of the creditors to bind the remaining third to submit to a rateable share; but, at the same time, it was provided that the sanction of a Judge or master should be necessary to every compromise, in order to secure creditors against any injustice which might be done them. The Bill was, in point of fact, very similar to the one which had obtained their Lordships' sanction last year, and, although it might be said that at present there was a larger number of creditors who had obtained judgments at that time, he had already endeavoured to point out that no material injustice would be done to them.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
  LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that a noble Friend of his (the Earl of Donoughmore) had placed upon the paper a notice of his intention to move that certain persons who had petitioned their Lordships against the Bill be heard against it by counsel. The petitioners complained that the Bill would operate very unjustly towards judgment creditors in Ireland, because it would destroy the advantage which attached to a judgment in Ireland, where it operated as a mortgage on the debtor's property. He himself would not express any opinion upon the subject of that petition, but, as his noble Friend was unable to be present that evening, he hoped that the noble and learned Lord would not consider that he

  1427
  was stopped from making that Motion at a future stage of the Bill.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that he could not hold out any notion that he could concur in the prayer of the petition; but at the same time the noble Lord would not be prevented making his Motion at a subsequent period.
  LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, he wished to point out to their Lordships the position of the creditors of the Tipperary Bank. These creditors believed that under an Act of Geo. II. they were entitled to lay hold of the whole of the real and personal estate of the bank shareholders, and they took measures to give them what they considered to be their rights. After very long arguments, however, at their Lordships' Bar, it was considered that they had no rights of the sort, for the Act of Geo. II. was repealed by an Act of the 6th of Geo. IV., which gave the creditors certain remedies against the shareholders of joint-stock banks, and did not enable them to take all the property. The law of England was quite clear. Not only might the shareholders themselves resolve to wind up the company, but the creditors might issue a fiat in bankruptcy against the shareholders. In Ireland it was otherwise; there they could not make them bankrupts. He (Lord St. Leonards) had certainly come to a different opinion; but since great doubt existed on the point, and it was the duty of the Government to-remove that doubt, and to give the creditors in Ireland the same rights as they had in England, he hoped their Lordships would take care in arranging for a compromise that they did not destroy the security which certain creditors were already in possession of by virtue of the judgments which they had recovered. It would be a great injustice to take away from them a security which in law amounted to a mortgage.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.

THE TRANSPORT SERVICE.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKE: My Lords, I rise pursuant to notice, to call your Lordships' attention to the subject of hiring tonnage for the transport service of Government. The matter is one of considerable importance, and one, in my opinion, well worthy of the consideration
  1428
  of my noble Friends opposite. During the late war, the money expended in carrying troops amounted to no less than £5,000,000 in one year, and in the year previous to £3,000,000. I took occasion at that time to notice the immense expenditure in the conveyance of munitions of war; and I ventured to criticise the mode in which the tonnage was taken up. I will not now go into the question of tonnage; for I admit that the authorities who govern the country, and manage these matters, have no guide whatever as to the hiring of tonnage, so as to know what they really hire for the use of the State. They are almost completely in the hands of the owners of shipping who use terms of tonnage that do not give you the slightest notion of the carrying power. This question grows larger and larger the more you employ steam vessels; because, when these vessels have their machinery and coals on board, so much of their tonnage is occupied that, though they look very imposing, and seem to have great carrying powers, they have in many instances failed to efficiently carry out their contracts. The number of transports hired during the late war was 118. They were hired indiscriminately as to tonnage in this respect—that sometimes they were hired on their registered tonnage, and sometimes on their gross tonnage. The consequence of this confusion was, that the public paid enormously for the transport service to the country. It can readily be shown that, when the Government came to hire by gross tonnage, they paid at least one-third more than when they hired by registered tonnage, and gained no advantage whatever. Two returns laid upon the table of the House of Commons on the 8th July and the 8th August, 1856, respectively, are most important as going to elucidate the case now before your Lordships. Of the 118 transports hired for the conveyance of troops, twenty-four were hired by gross tonnage. The names of these twenty-four were—Magdalena, Golden Fleece, Arabia, Jura, Alma, Nubia, Tamar, Medway, Thames, Trent, Europa, Niagara, Queen of the South, Emeu, Andes, Cambria, Tynemouth, Emperor, Robert Lowe, Tanning, Cormorant, Albatros, Sovereign, and Hope. The gross tonnage of these twenty-four vessels was 39,806 tons. I shall now take twenty-four of the vessels hired by registered tonnage, the gross tonnage of which amounted to 41,517 tons. The names of the twenty-four ves-

  1429
  sels which I select from those hired by registered tonnage are—Great Britain, Orinoco, Jason, Simla, Candia, Ripon, Severn, Victoria, Hydaspes, Adelaide, Argo, Imperador, Canadian, Imperatrice, Cleopatra, Melbourne, Alps, Australian, Sydney, Charity, City of London, Lion, Telegraph, and Kangaroo. The hire per month for the first class of vessels—namely, those hired by the gross tonnage—was £92,588; while the hire per month of the twenty-four hired by registered tonnage was £63,765. The rate of hire per gross ton per month of the twenty-four hired by registered tonnage was £110 s. 8½d. Now, take 39,806 tons, the gross tonnage of the twenty-four hired by gross tonnage, and at £1 10 s. 8½d. per gross ton, the entire amount for hire would only stand at £61,118, instead of what it does really amount to on the gross tonnage hiring—namely, £92,588. This shows a loss per month on the hiring of the first twenty-four ships whose names I have read to your Lordships of £31,470. I think I have said enough to show that there must have been very great ignorance as to the mode of taking up tonnage; for, unquestionably, if there had been a thorough understanding as to the manner in which transports should be hired, Government would never have made this monstrous blunder. That is the whole of my case, and it is important that these matters should be considered carefully, when we are entering on another—I will not call it war—but difficulty, and when a great amount of tonnage must be taken up. I am not desirous of eliciting any answer from my noble Friend, but the matter is one which should not at the present juncture be passed over.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYhoped the noble Earl would excuse him for not being able to give him any information upon the subjects to which he had referred, as they did not belong to the department with which he was connected. The Admiralty had the sole control of the transport service, and without making inquiries at the Admiralty, it was impossible for him to give any information to the noble Earl on the various points on which the noble Earl had touched.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he had expressed his opinion on a former occasion that it was possible, particularly at this season of the year, to make a better passage to India in a sailing vessel than in a steamer—at least, his experience
  1430
  was to that effect; but he hoped that those who had the engaging of the sailing transports would pay particular attention to their sailing qualities, because, unless good sailers were selected, fast passages could not be expected. He had seen with regret the names of a number of vessels mentioned as being engaged for the transport of troops to India which were notorious as bad sailers when he was in India, fifteen years ago. He had heard yesterday the name of one vessel which was celebrated for only being able to go four knots an hour. It might be that the vessels themselves had been repaired and were now good sailers; but he hoped the attention of the Government would be earnestly directed to the imperative necessity of choosing none but good vessels for this service.
  LORD PANMUREsaid, he had had an interview with the Chairman of the East India Company, who had assured him that the vessels engaged for the conveyance of troops were vessels generally known by the name of clippers, and were fast sailers. He was not prepared to speak as to the comparative value of sailing vessels and steamers; but in deference to the feelings of families in India, the Government had determined to give a trial to steamers, and five screws had been taken up for the conveyance of troops to that country.
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, he was a little alarmed at the appearance of a divided authority and the consultation of new departments which was Suggested by his noble Friend's mention of a conversation with the Chairman of the Board of Directors, He hoped that the entire direction of the transport service during the present emurgency would be left with the Minister of War. That this ought always to be the case in time of war was an opinion which had been expressed from the commencement of the Russian war, and which he had stated before the Sebastopol Committee. Although, during the time that he had held the office of Secretary of War, the transport department had been under the direction of one of the ablest administrators in the country, Sir James Graham, assisted by Captain Milne, a distinguished naval officer and most indefatigable in the discharge of his duty, the conviction had been forced upon him that the transport service, during the time of war at least, ought always to be under the sole control of the Minister of War.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he thought he could explain to the noble Duke how it was that the Chairman of the East India Company was mixed up with this matter. The East India Company paid the expense of the transport of troops to India, the Crown paying the expense of the transport of troops going to China. Notice was given of the number of troops required, and then the East India Company, under the control of the Board of Control, took up the requisite tonnage. The contracts were all laid before the Board of Control.
  LORD PANMURE: That has been the practice time out of mind.
  Subject dropped.

  THE INDIA MAILS—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, he wished to put a question to the Postmaster General, as to whether any arrangements had been made for expediting the India mails through France. In consequence of the existing state of circumstances, the conveyance of the India mails was a matter of great importance. At present, however, a delay took place in France, which might, and he believed would, be obviated if the subject were brought under the notice of the Emperor, whose kind feelings towards this country were known. The homeward Indian mails now generally arrived at Marseilles either in the middle of the night or early in the morning. The mail bags were then conveyed to the French Post Office and lodged there. Of the magnitude of the mail, some idea might be formed when he stated that, in consequence of the vast increase of the French trade with the East, in one instance lately the French portion of the mail consisted of 118 boxes. Then, having been lodged in the Post Office, the French authorities first sorted their own letters, and until they had done that they would not allow our letters to proceed. The consequence was, that our mails were delayed at Marseilles from twelve to twenty-four hours. Now nothing could be more easy than to have the English mails, on the arrival of the steamer at Marseilles, conveyed direct to the railway station, and then despatched at once. A special train might either be put on by the railway company, or, if they did not think that the conveyance of the passengers and mails would pay its expense, we might ourselves, at our own expense, put on a special train, which
  1432
  should proceed direct to the port of embarkation on the Channel. By this means he thought that from eighteen to twenty-four hours might be saved in the conveyance of the mail, which was a matter of very great importance at the present time.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he had taken some pains to inform himself of the exact state of the facts relating to this matter, and he was happy to say that his noble Friend had considerably overrated the delay that had taken place in any one instance. During the last six months, there had been thirteen overland mails, and only in one case, on the 27th January last, had there been a delay of more than twelve hours. Representations had been made to the French Government, and in February new arrangements were made for forwarding the overland mail. There were two mail trains despatched from Marseilles to Paris each day, one in the morning and the other in the evening, and if our mails did not arrive in time for the departure of these trains, we had no right to demand that the French Government should put on fresh ones for our convenience. We had a right to demand that they should forward our mails by the first train after their arrival, but nothing more. However, the French Government had very kindly and considerately made an arrangement by which, if our mail bag arrived at Marseilles within two hours of the departure of the morning mail, and provided it was not beyond noon, they would forward it by an express train, and should that train not overtake the mail at Lyons, they agreed to send it on all the way to Paris. If, however, the mail bag arrived after the departure of the night train, it was thought in that case to be unsafe to send it forward by express, on account of the traffic. He could assure the noble Earl that every effort was made by the Post Office Department to facilitate the communication between this country and India, and that no time was lost in conveying the correspondence all over the country. As a proof of this, he might state that last night the India mail arrived about eleven o'clock, and that no fewer than 20,000 letters were distributed by the first delivery in London, and sent off by the first trains to all parts of the kingdom.
  House adjourned at Seven o'clock to Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.