MOTION FOR RETURNS. (Hansard, 13 February 1857)

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE

said, that the question, of which he had given notice, was one which affected the whole landed property in Ireland. The observations which he had then to address to the House would be brief, but he reserved the power of bringing the matter again before their Lordships, if he did not receive a satisfactory answer. He hoped, however, that that would not be the case, and that he might receive an assurance that some arrangement would be completed. He might, perhaps, be told, that 602 the answer given by the Lord Chancellor on a previous evening to Lord Belper had imparted all the necessary information on the subject. But their Lordships would recollect, that the reply of the noble and learned Lord had reference only to the filling up the vacancy in the Court, caused by the retirement of Baron Richards. Now that was but a small part of the matter. In July, 1855, he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) had put a question on this subject, and had received for answer that it was under consideration in all its bearings, and that a Committee would be appointed, previous to bringing a Bill before Parliament. Last year a Committee of the House of Commons was appointed, which collected a great mass of evidence, and what was its first recommendation? The first three paragraphs of its Report recommended that the system of conferring indefeasible titles should be perpetuated, that it should be extended to unincumbered estates, and that a tribunal should be established in Ireland for the purpose of conferring indefeasible titles on such estates as on examination might be found to deserve it. There had, therefore, been a full consideration of the subject, and what reason could there be for delay in acting in reference to it? The delay which had taken place in the matter had been highly injurious, and the grievances which landed property in Ireland suffered from this state of things were great. Those grievances did not arise from the owners of that property; they arose from that House, which had the remedy in its own hands. Three Commissioners had been at first appointed, after which it was proposed to limit the number to two; yet from the evidence collected by the Committee it would be seen that the business of the Court had overgrown the constituted machinery of the Court. Large sums still remained to be disposed of; and the opinion of the Commissioners with regard to the machinery was, that it would take, practically, three years to close the business which they had in hand. Instead of reconstructing the Court, or of transferring the business to another Court, the only steps taken by the Government were to reduce the staff of the original one. He could not understand on what principle the Government did this. Considering the vast amount of property and the vast number of suitors, this would inflict a grievous wrong. There were above 300 abstracts of titles in the office of the late Chief Commissioner which 603 had never been opened. In the sales which had actually taken place, the money had been lodged in Court, but was undistributed, and still remained in the Court. He knew one case of a sale completed in November last; the money was still in Court, and the proprietor was paying 6 per cent interest to the creditors. Last year, when the Court was in full force, there was not less than £500,000 lying for distribution in the Court, while the owners were, of course, paying 6 per cent to the creditors. The Court was not working as it ought to do for the benefit of the country; and he defied contradiction, when he said, that at that moment the Incumbered Estates Court had increased the number of incumbered estates in Ireland. It was a notorious fact, that people intending to procure a better title than the original owner could show, borrowed money, in order to effect purchases through the Court, and that thus in some cases the estates became more heavily mortgaged than they were before the sale. There was no excuse for continuing the exceptional tribunal. If it was to be continued, there ought not to be the delay of a single day in bringing in a Bill for the purpose of granting indefeasible titles to all property in Ireland. It was notorious that estates had been incumbered for the very purpose of bringing them under the operation of the Court, and thus obtaining the more advantageous title. There were at present the two chief law officers of the Crown in Ireland, who were perfectly competent to undertake such a Bill. It should be considered how the matter affected other persons. The titles given by the Court enabled the proprietors of estates readily to raise money, while other estates had to go to considerable expense for that purpose. But was it just and equitable that a man who chose to call his estate incumbered should get an indefeasible title, while another man was denied any such privilege unless he sued as it were in formâ pauperis. This opened the great question of the registration of loans. There was another case to which the Government ought to pay attention, and especially his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ordinary estates on their transfer had the expense of stamps to bear, but property which passed through the Court was exempt from all such charges. It was a practical fraud on the public revenue. This exemption was utterly monstrous. It made 604 the dealing with these estates particularly agreeable to attorneys and solicitors, who had not to pay the cost of stamps out of their pockets. Trustees and surveyors ran up bills, trusting to the chances of getting the money when the purchase was completed. Every Court to which arbitrary powers were entrusted ought to be above suspicion, but this Court was not above suspicion. Its locality ought to be changed, its practice ought to be thrown open to all solicitors, and the Court ought to be made accessible, not only to the public at large, but also to the legal public. At present the public were admitted to the ordinary proceedings, but not to those who were to be brought before the Judges. It was reported that the Chief Secretary for Ireland intended to ask Parliament for £30,000 for the expense of erecting new Courts. Now, the Court was only to last by law till 1858, and yet it was intended to ask for this large Vote of money. He entreated their Lordships to proceed to immediate legislation. The Courts were not working in the manner in which they were intended to work, and required immediate attention. He would ask his noble Friend the question of which he had given notice, namely, What was the intention of the Government respecting the Incumbered Estates Court in Ireland? and would also move for a Return of the number of Abstracts of Title in the office of the late Chief Commissioner of the Incumbered Estates Court in Ireland not investigated at the time of the retirement from that office of the learned Baron; and of the number of cases in which estates had been sold, but the proceeds of the sale not distributed at the same date; also, for a Copy of a recent Correspondence between the Commissioners and Her Majesty's Government upon the state of business in their Court.