Lords Sitting of 11 August 1857

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Ecclesiastical Commission.
2a New Zealand Loan Guarantee; New Zealand Company's Claims; New Zealand Government Act Amendment.
3a Militia; Court of Session (Scotland); General Board of Health Continuance; Attornies and Solicitors (Colonial Courts); Illicit Distillation (Ireland); Loan Societies; Burial Grounds (Scotland) Act (1855) Amendment; Summary Proceedings before Justices of the Peace; Jurisdiction in Siam.

THE LAW COURT COMMISSION— JUDICIAL ARRANGEMENTS.

  QUESTION.
  LORD CAMPBELLwished to put a question to his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack respecting the Report of the Commissioners appointed by Her Majesty to inquire whether the number of Judges should be diminished, and what arrangements ought to be made respecting judicial business in town and on circuit. He believed the Commissioners had presented their Report some days ago, and he wished to know when it was likely to be laid before Parliament. Legislation on the subject during the present Session was, of course, wholly out of the question, but it was important that the public mind should be disabused of some of the unfounded, notions which had obtained currency. A right hon. Gentleman, for whom he had a sincere respect, acting no doubt upon what he believed to be authentic information, had again and again maintained that the Judges were little better than sinecurists, that they had nothing to do, and that their number might be diminished with advantage. Having had the honour to be a member of the Commission he (Lord Campbell) could say that the subject had received most deliberate and earnest investigation. The Commission had the advantage of two lay members, Sir John Pakington and Mr. Wilson Patten, to whose labours the public were infinitely indebted; and, after a most laborious investigation, they came to the unanimous resolution that the number of Judges could not be diminished without prejudice to the interest of the country. The number of superior Courts was now the same as in the reign of Edward I., but the number of Judges had been increased by three at the time that Wales was added to the jurisdiction of the Eng-
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  lish Judges. It was true that the County Courts had taken away a good deal of unimportant business which occupied but a small portion of the time of the superior Courts; but since the establishment of the County Courts a number of Acts had been passed which greatly increased the onerous business which the common law Judges were required to transact. The Commissioners were of opinion that those Judges had now as much to do, if not more, than before the number of Judges was increased. His noble and learned Friend on the woolsack had been very severely blamed for advising Her Majesty to appoint puisne Judges when vacancies occurred; but in his (Lord Campbell's) opinion, if his noble and learned Friend had not given such advice he would have failed in the performance of his duty, for such vacancies could not have existed without serious detriment to the public interests. Many of his learned friends at the bar were much interested in the arrangement of the circuits, and that was an additional reason for the production of the Report with as little delay as possible. Some of those learned gentlemen might feel annoyed at the arrangements proposed; but the Commissioners had done all they could, consistly with the interests of the public, to obviate private inconvenience. It was desirable that the decision of the Commissioners should be made known in an authentic manner as soon as possible, and he therefore begged to ask his noble and learned Friend whether he had received the Report, and when it was likely to be laid upon the table?
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that although he was very glad this question had been put, he would have been able to give a more decisive answer, if he had had notice of his noble and learned Friend's intention to make the inquiry, because the Commission was not one issued under the Great Seal, but under the sign manual, and the Report was consequently made, not to him, but to the Secretary of State. He knew the Report of the Commission was in the hands of the Secretary of State, but he (the Lord Chancellor) had not seen it officially, and he was therefore unable to give a distinct answer to his noble and learned Friend's question. He agreed, however, with his noble and learned Friend that it was essential that at the earliest moment—if possible before the separation of Parliament—the Report should be laid upon the table. He should

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  have occasion to sec the Secretary of State to-morrow, and he would then, no doubt, be able to ascertain when the Report was likely to be presented. He was glad his noble and learned Friend had called attention to this subject, because the only point upon which he felt some justification, might be necessary was with regard to the issuing of such a Commission at all. The Commission was issued, not because the Government thought there was any necessity for it, but because, after the expressions of opinion from persons of high authority, the Government thought it desirable that the matter should be fully investigated. He rejoiced to hear that the conclusion at which the Commissioners had arrived was that which he had himself formed—that there was not the least pretence for a diminution of the number of Judges. He had the honour for eleven years of filling the office of puisne Judge; and he could say that although the labours of those Judges might not be quite so arduous as those of the Chief Justices, yet from the 1st of November to the commencement of the long vacation their time was fully occupied. People were mistaken if they supposed that because the Judges were not actually sitting in court they were therefore unoccupied. There were judgments to be prepared; there was attendance in Chambers; there were various official duties to be performed; and, in fact, the time of a Judge was fully occupied for at least nine months in the year. His noble and learned Friend had adverted to the recommendation he (the Lord Chancellor) had made to Her Majesty to appoint Judges to fill up the vacancies as they occurred. It had been said that such a course was improper pending the inquiry of the Commission. He found, however, that if the vacancies were not filled up it would have been necessary for him to take a course which he knew would have occasioned great dissatisfaction in the provinces—namely, to appoint deputies to peform the duties of Judges pro hâc vice, because the diminished number of Judges could not possibly have got through the business of the circuits. He had, therefore, thinking himself that there was no superabundance of Judges, and anticipating what he thought would be the opinion of the Commissioners, felt it his duty to act upon his belief, and to recommend the appointment of Judges to supply the vacancies which had occurred. He was sensible of the responsibility of recom-
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  mending such appointments, and he was glad his noble and learned Friend approved the course which he had pursued. It would be the duty of the Government immediately to frame measures to carry out, he would not say all the recommendations of the Commissioners, but such portions of them as it seemed desirable to carry into effect, and such measures would be introduced at the very earliest period of the next Session.

  SALE OF POISONS.
  LORD CAMPBELLasked the Lord President of the Council what the Government intended to do in reference to the Bill relative to the improper sale of poisons? The Bill had been referred to a Select Committee, who laboriously investigated the subject, and obtained important information, founded on which certain Amendments had been introduced into the Bill. He wished to know whether the noble Earl intended to proceed with the Bill during the present Session, or whether it would stand over for consideration until the next Session.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the Select Committee had given most patient attention to the question, and had heard a great deal of evidence; they had in consequence amended the Bill in various particulars, and had returned it to the House expressing their opinion that it was most desirable that legislation should take place on the subject. It would, however, be useless to attempt to proceed with it at that period of the Session, and he thought some advantage would be gained by the Bill being printed and circulated in the country during the recess.

NEW ZEALAND LOAN GUARANTEE BILL.
  NEW ZEALAND COMPANY'S CLAIMS BILL.
    NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

      SECOND READING.
      LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY moved to resolve
      "That as regards the said Bills, they are all connected one with the other, and the two latter are Money Bills, and as regards the colony, Bills of Aid or Supply; and it appears that the said Bills were unavoidably delayed in coming to this House in consequence of the necessity of communicating with certain Members of the New Zealand Legislature, and from the late period at which the Select Committee to which these Bills were referred reported upon them to the other House of Parliament; and as great inconvenience

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      would arise to that distant colony if legislation was postponed till another year, the circumstances which render legislation on the subject matter of the said Bills expedient are in the opinion of this House of such urgency as to render the immediate consideration of the same necessary."
      LORD REDESDALEsaid, he should make no objection.
      Motion agreed to; Bills read 2a according to Order; and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.
      House adjourned at Six o'clock, to
      Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.