Lords Sitting of 6 August 1857

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.— 1a Burial Acts Amendment; Illicit Distillation (Ireland); Summary Proceedings before Justices of the Peace; Boundaries, of Burghs Extension (Scotland); Jurisdiction in Siam.
2a Militia; County Court Judges (Falconer and Yates's Salaries); Court of Session (Scotland); Charitable Trusts Acts Continuance; Reformatory Schools (Scotland); Superannuation Act Amendment.
3a Reformatory Schools; Industrial Schools; Parochial Schoolmasters (Scotland); Land Tax Commissioners' Names.

THE KING OF OUDE.—PETITION.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he had just received a petition which he felt it his duty to present, in order that it might be generally known that their Lordships were ready to hear the petitions of all persons who addressed them with proper respect. The petition came from the Queen of Oude, the eldest son, and the brother of the King of Oude. They expressed the deepest pain and regret at the news recently received from the East Indies of the general defection of the Native troops in the Bengal Presidency, and they went on to state their
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surprise at its being supposed that their relative the King of Oude had been at all concerned in that movement. They denied all complicity in it on the part of the Sovereign, and they said they felt confident from assurances they received from him that he was entirely innocent of the charges brought against him; that all the members of the Royal Family of Oude were faithfully attached to the connection with Great Britain, and that for the redress of any wrongs they thought they had suffered, they only looked to the Queen and Parliament of Great Britain. The prayer of the petition was that it might be disclosed to the King of Oude what charges were made against him, and that they might have the opportunity of proving his innocence and of corresponding with him. The noble and learned Lord said, that as the sentiments set forth in that petition were perfectly respectful, and in every way unobjectionable, he had thought it his duty to lay it before their Lordships, but he felt bound at the same time to state that he had no doubt the Government of India had acted in that case with perfect propriety, and that he had the most entire confidence in their wisdom. It was, at all events, satisfactory to receive that testimony from the Royal Family of Oude of their devoted attachment to this country, and he should rejoice to find that any charges which might be brought against the King of Oude would be proved to be unfounded.
LORD ST. LEONARDStrusted it would not be supposed from the petition being laid on their Lordships' table that any injustice had been done to the King of Oude. He had sufficient confidence in the East India Company and the Government of India not to acquiesce in the assertion that the King of Oude had been improperly treated.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he had guarded, himself against being supposed to assent to that assertion when he expressed his confidence that the Government of India had acted with perfect propriety. At the same time he added that all who approached their Lordships respectfully should have the opportunity of being heard. The petitioners expressed the greatest devotion and affection to this country.
LORD REDESDALE LORD REDESDALE rose to draw the attention of their Lordships to the informality of the petition. The word "humble" had been omitted throughout. It was the form that every petition should be described as "the humble Petition" of

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the undersigned; but from this the word "humble" was omitted. The Queen of Oude and her relatives also closed the prayer of their petition with the word "pray" instead of the words "humbly pray." It was not customary for their Lordships to receive a petition so worded.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that if there were any technicality of that sort in the way of the reception of the petition he would withdraw it.
Petition accordingly withdrawn.

THE BANKING BILL.—EXPLANATION.
LORD ST. LEONARDS LORD ST. LEONARDS rose to complain that this Bill had been read a third time rather by surprise on Tuesday last, and that he had been thus prevented from proposing the insertion of two clauses which he thought it of importance to introduce, and of which he had given notice to the noble Lord opposite. One of the clauses which he wished to insert was intended to provide that joint-stock banks should be compelled to publish their accounts, as they were at present, and the other had reference to the bankruptcy of banks in Ireland. He very much lamented that the noble Lord should have hurried the Bill through without a word, although he was aware that he (Lord St. Leonards) intended to take the sense of the House on his Amendments. That was not the mode in which the Government ought to conduct the business of the House. Hitherto there had been but one code applicable exclusively to joint-stock banks; they were now about to sweep away the whole of that law, and to make joint-stock banking companies subject to all the laws and regulations affecting joint-stock companies generally. This was a great alteration to effect by a measure of this nature, and he ventured to say that very few of their Lordships were aware of the nature of its enactments. Under it any seven persons might establish a joint-stock banking company with £100 each subscribed, but not one penny paid. They might advertise themselves as being incorporated under this Act some fine day, and then unfortunate people in all parts of the country would be swindled out of their property, and would be deprived of all those safeguards which they had hitherto possessed.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, he would express his regret that the noble and learned Lord should have been prevented from expressing his views on the
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Bill; but at the same time he must remind the noble and learned Lord that on two former occasions he had postponed this Bill for the noble and learned Lord's express convenience, and that on Monday night he informed him that he could not postpone it any longer, because the Session was getting on, and if these measures were postponed indefinitely from time to time it would be impossible to pass them. With reference to joint-stock banks in Ireland, he told the noble and learned Lord that a clause to effect the object which he had in view had been introduced by the Attorney General for Ireland in the other House, and he stated that if that clause did not carry out to the full extent the wish of the noble and learned Lord, another might be introduced for the purpose. With regard to the other clause he stated that the Bill was intended to assimilate the law with respect to joint-stock banks to the Joint-stock Companies Act of last year, with this single exception, that, whereas joint-stock companies under the Act of last year might be formed with limited liability, banks would continue to be formed, as they had always hitherto been, under unlimited liability. With regard to the publication of accounts, he stated that that was not required by the Joint-stock Companies Act of last year, to which banks were, under this Bill, to be assimilated. He added that be considered the publication of accounts to be a completely fallacious test, and that it enabled the British Bank, the Tipperary Bank, and every swindling concern which had failed of late years, to bear upon their face an assumption of security which it was so far from affording that it only deluded the public who confided in them. On the whole, he thought it desirable that there should be no compulsory publication of accounts, although the shareholders might, if they deemed it advisable for the sake of security, by their memorandum of association, require it as one of the conditions of the company. If it were thought that such publication would add to the security of the concern, and would inspire confidence in the public, no doubt the shareholders and directors of most banks which desired to obtain such confidence would take measures for the publication of their accounts.

MILITIA BILL—SECOND READING.
Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYexpressed a hope that every encouragement would be given to enlistment from the militia into the line. He believed that very many militiamen who had served for some years would be extremely glad to seize the opportunity of entering into the army, if proper inducements were held out to them.
THE DUKE OF RICHMONDalso thought that every reasonable encouragement ought to be given to enlistment from the militia into the line, if any considerable addition to our present military force should be required. He wished to take that opportunity of suggesting to the noble Lord the Secretary of War the expediency of giving to the commanders of militia regiments the power of re-enlisting militia men whose time was nearly out, before the period of their present enlistment should have expired. If the men whose period of enlistment would terminate in a few months were to receive in the meantime the bounty due to them, a very favourable opportunity would be afforded for securing their services for a further term. It would soon be his duty to attend at the headquarters of his regiment to pay the balance of the bounty to his men, and he had no doubt if he was authorised he would be enabled to re-enlist a large number whose time would expire almost immediately after, and thus secure the services of trained men. In conclusion, he had to express a hope that if the Government were prepared to encourage enlistment from the militia into the line, militia officers would feel it their duty to promote that object to the utmost of their power.
LORD PANMUREsaid, he had listened with great gratification to the remarks of the noble Marquess and the noble Duke, connected as they were with the militia, and anxious as they seemed to be to promote enlistment into the line regiments. It was, certainly, most desirable that, at any particular emergency of this kind, as many men as possible should be induced to enter into the regular service. At the present moment, there was some little difficulty in allowing men who had not been six months in the militia, or who had no gone through some degree of training, to volunteer for the line without paying back the militia bounty. His Royal Highness at the head of the army had, however arranged that any militiamen who had served six months, or who had been out at one training, should be exempted from this re-payment. It was not desirable that
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raw recruits should pass from the militia into the 'line. That was not just to the commanding officers of line regiments, and was a thing to be discouraged as much as possible. It was, however, highly desirable to procure men for Her Majesty's service as early as possible, in order to fill up the vacancies occasioned by the departures for India; and the Commander in Chief, therefore, in addition to the ordinary machinery of the recruiting service, had given directions to the permanent staff of the militia to assist, in their various districts, the efforts made to procure men. At this season of the year, he anticipated that, in many counties, they would soon begin to reap the fruits of this arrangement, and as the harvest concluded, he loped a considerable body of men would be enlisted for the service of the country. With reference to the remarks of the noble Duke, he would look into the militia laws, and would see whether any legal provision was required to enable the colonels to re-enlist men before their time of service expired. He quite agreed that it was desirable to give power to the commanding officers to enter into arrangements with the five years' service men, if they came to receive their bounty, two or three months before the expiration of their term; and if any such provision were necessary, he should not hesitate to ask Parliament to accede to it.
THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE: I have heard, with much satisfaction, the sentiments expressed by my noble Friends as to the necessity of giving every facility to volunteers from the militia into the line. That the militia is one of the mainstays of the army in times of emergency like the present, there can be no doubt whatever; and, as the officers in command of militia regiments, whether embodied or not, must have great power over their several corps, it is most gratifying to me to hear my noble Friends, as two colonels of militia, so warmly expressing their opinions in favour of encouraging enlistment into the line. I feel confident that the same feeling will pervade the whole militia force of the country, and I cannot too strongly impress upon all commanding officers of that force the vast importance of encouraging their men to enter the regular service on this occasion. Circumstances of a grave character have called a considerable portion of Her Majesty's forces from this country, and it now becomes our duty to fill up the reserves of the army. No army, however

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complete and efficient in the field, can be regarded as in a satisfactory position if it has not considerable reserves to draw upon at all times; and this is more especially the case when we remember the climate of India, with which it is peculiarly difficult for Europeans to cope. At the same time, I feel the greatest confidence in the exertions which will be made by the country—exertions which were so conspicuous on a recent occasion, and which, I believe, will certainly not now be withheld. I may also express my cordial approval of the power taken by the Government, in the present Bill, to embody the militia, should the circumstances of the country require it. It is necessary that every one should put his shoulder to the wheel, and I must repeat, therefore, my gratification at the spirit displayed by my noble Friends, and my conviction that every possible support will be afforded us by the country.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHsaid, that no one could be more anxious than he was to offer every assistance for the promotion of enlistment from the militia into the line, and he suggested that his noble Friend (Lord Panmure) should, with as little delay as possible, send circulars to the officers commanding militia regiments, stating exactly what would be allowed with regard to volunteers for the line. Definite information of this kind would very much facilitate re-enlistment.
Motion agreed to.
Bill read 2° accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the whole House, Tomorrow.

FRAUDULENT TRUSTEES, &c., BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clauses from 1 to 11, agreed to.
  Clause 12, Prosecution under this Bill to be authorized by one of the Judges or by the Attorney General.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORproposed to amend the clause by striking out that part of it referring to the Judges, because it might happen that a trustee, charged with fraud, might be tried before the very Judge who had sanctioned the institution of proceedings against him.
  LORD CAMPBELLapproved the Amendment, and expressed an earnest wish that, in other branches of the law the sanction of some public officer might be necessary before criminal prosecutions were instituted. He had frequently observed that the most
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  frightful abuses arose from the facilities which were given to private prosecutors, without any notice whatever to the parties accused, to prefer bills of indictment, and immediately to obtain warrants thereon. That was the case, particularly, with regard to charges of perjury and conspiracy. Those indictments were frequently preferred for the sake of extortion. If some public functionary were responsible for the institution of those proceedings, it would be a great improvement in our criminal jurisprudence. He had had a good deal of conversation with the late Attorney General, Sir Alexander Cockburn, on the subject, and his learned Friend had made up his mind to propose a Bill to remedy the evil. He hoped that a Bill of that nature would, ere long, receive the sanction of the Legislature. For the present, he thought it was highly desirable that no person should be liable to any prosecution for breach of trust without the previous sanction of a public functionary.
  LORD ST. LEONARDSbriefly expressed his concurrence in the Amendment proposed by the Lord Chancellor.
  Amendment agreed to.
  On Question that the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill,
  LORD WENSLEYDALEmoved the omission of the entire clause, because he thought that it would lead to great abuse. By the common law every individual had a right to go before the grand jury and ask for permission to prosecute any one who he thought had inflicted upon him an injury punishable under the criminal law. That privilege was one of the distinctions between this and foreign countries. In them, no criminal prosecution could be commenced without the interference of the Executive, and, therefore, for the accomplishment of party purposes, or for the gratification of individual animosity, the Government and the officers of the Government had ample opportunities. There were no doubt cases in which it was desirable and necessary that the institution of criminal proceedings should be vested in an officer of the Crown; but this Bill did not directly concern the public; it had merely reference to wrongs committed on private individuals. The law relating to trustees was now clearly defined, and no such provision as this was necessary. He therefore hoped that their Lordships would omit the clause.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the great evil which was apprehended from this Bill by the other House was, that while

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  it would punish those who had been guilty of fraud, it would also deter honest men from undertaking the duties of trustees. This objection was intended to be obviated by the introduction of the safe-guard afforded by this clause. It was made a necessary preliminary to the institution of a prosecution for what would constitute an entirely new offence, that the proceedings should have the sanction of a high functionary familiar with the subject, who would see whether the case fairly came within the purview of the law.
  LORD ST. LEONARDS,while subscribing to the general views expressed by his noble and learned Friend, (Lord Wensleydale), still thought this clause one which their Lordships might safely adopt. It was a peculiar provision, calculated to meet a peculiar set of circumstances. It would prove to honest trustees that a faithful performance of their duties exposed thorn to no real danger.
  LORD CAMPBELLfelt strongly that the case contemplated by the clause justified an exception being made to the general rule. There ought to be some check put upon vexatious and rash prosecutions; and no evil was likely to arise from vesting the proposed discretionary power in the Attorney General. His noble and learned Friend (Lord Wensleydale) seemed to be under unnecessary alarm on this score. At present, no writ of error could be brought without the sanction of the Attorney General, who also had it in his power to put a stop to the execution of the criminal law. If, however, that functionary abused the authority intrusted to him by law for wise purposes, he was liable to be called to account, and even to be punished.
  LORD WENSLEYDALEsaid, he objected to a practice hitherto unknown in the constitution of this country. The offence in question was one committed against a private individual, and why should he be debarred from bringing his case before a grand jury?
  Clause agreed to.
  Amendments moved and negatived. Amendments made: the Report thereof to be received To-morrow.

TRANSFER OF REAL ESTATE SIMPLIFI CATION BILL.

  ORDER FOR SECOND READING DISCHARGED.
  LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, that he could not expect at so late a period of the Session to be able to pass the Bill into law, but, as he had been somewhat mis-
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  understood when he had addressed their Lordships on a former occasion, he wished in a very few words to state what were the provisions of the measure. He was aware that the noble Lord who had presided over the Commission which had been appointed to inquire into the subject proposed to introduce a Bill next year, founded on the recommendation of that Commission, which was based upon a principle of registration; and a noble and learned Friend of his (Lord Brougham) had somewhat anticipated that measure by himself introducing a Bill which recognized that principle. Now, the object of the present Bill was to render a system of registration wholly unnecessary. The Bill dealt with the present system as regarded perpetuity, and amended and explained the present law. It proposed also to reduce the period of forty years of uninterrupted possession, which the law at present recognized as giving a valid title, to twenty-five years, and it rendered it unnecessary to include in a conveyance abstracts of title for more than forty years back. At present a registered judgment might be executed against a purchaser any time after the purchase had been completed, but he proposed that when there was a bonâfide purchase no purchase should be attached upon a judgment or Crown debt unless execution issued before; the purchase was completed. The Bill proposed that no purchaser should be bound by any engagement of which he had no actual notice. The Bill also provided for the exemption of purchasers from the succession duties, and it enabled trustees to give a perfect discharge to purchasers from any claims upon the property. The last proposition was to make any seller, agent, or solicitor concealing an encumbrance with a fraudulent intent liable to punishment as being guilty of a misdemeanour, and he believed such a provision would be found to operate beneficially. He would therefore move that the Order; of the Day for the Second Reading be read in order to its being discharged.
  LORD CAMPBELLexpressed his general approval of the measure.
  Order for the Second Reading read and discharged.

SUPERANNUATION ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that in rising to move the second reading of this Bill, he lamented that a measure of such impor-

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  tance, affecting a large body of the civil servants of the Crown, should excite so little attention and he able to command so small an attendance. He would not say one word as to the merits of that service, for that had been admitted by all their Lordships who had had any official experience, and was admitted in the strongest torms by those whose official experience had been the longest. He was quite sure that the opposition which had been raised to this measure in the other House arose from no wish to undervalue the merits and services of the civil servants of the Crown. In sketching the history of this question the noble Lord said it was a mistake to suppose that the grant of superannuation allowances originated exclusively in a consideration for the civil service. Such a system, in fact, was as important for the interests of the State as for the interests of the servants of the Crown, because if there was no choice between continuing in office men who were worn out and incapable, or condemning them by dismissal to end their days in penury and suffering, the latter painful alternative was frequently rejected even when men were really no longer able to discharge their duties efficiently, and the public service consequently suffered. Prior to the year 1810 there had been no legitimate provision made for superannuation allowances; but the Government had at its command certain unappropriated funds which they appropriated somewhat irregularly to that purpose; for instance, the receipts from the sale of old stores, found a fund which had been so applied. It was in 1810–12 that some approach was first made towards an adequate and legal provision for the superannuation of our civil servants. Since that time changes had been made to which he would not refer, but they had been so frequent and inconsistent that the system was felt to be utterly wanting in stability. A deduction was made from the salaries of the civil servants for the purpose, as the original intention was supposed to be, of providing a fund for the payment of their superannuations. A fund, however, in the proper sense of the word, was not provided; but by reason of the sums deducted, which amounted to 2½ per cent on the smaller and 5 per cent on the larger salaries, there was a public saving effected in the ordinary expenditure, and proposed to be set against the superannuation allowances given. This arrangement, however, was full of inconsistencies, and a great injustice was done
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  by the various and inconsistent rules which prevailed, not only in the different departments, but even in the same department. There was a capricious distinction made between two classes of officers—those appointed before and those appointed after 1829. In the latter case the civil servants were subjected to considerable reductions from their incomes, in return for which they became entitled to retiring allowances; while the retiring allowances of persons not subject to reductions were actually higher than those of civil servants who had annually contributed to the fund. The result was the excitement of just discontent. The system was on all hands admitted to be indefensible, and accordingly the present Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced a Bill on the subject. That measure differed essentially from the Bill now before the House, but still it furnished an admission on the part of the Government that the present system stood in need of reform. The Bill of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not received with much favour, and was referred to a Select Committee. That Committee came to a very important Resolution—namely, that the deductions made from the salaries of the civil servants should absolutely cease. To that Resolution an addendum was made, carried only by a majority of one, requiring the Treasury to undertake the revision of the salaries of the civil servants. That was, in fact, blowing hot and cold. In November, 1856, a Royal Commission, consisting of men admirably selected, was appointed to consider the subject, and in May of the present year this Commission reported that, after full consideration, they had come to the conclusion that, for the sake of the public service, as well as for the interest of the parties concerned, it was absolutely necessary that the system of deduction from the salaries of the civil servants should cease. Her Majesty's Government were asked early in the Session whether they intended to introduce any measure founded upon the Report of the Commissioners, and the answer was such as to induce the belief that it was their intention to do so. They, however, took no step whatever in the matter, and it was only towards the close of the Session that a noble Friend of his, a private Member of the other House (Lord Naas), introduced this Bill, which consisted merely of one clause, and was founded on that part of the Report of the Commissioners whereby the absolute

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  repeal of all deductions from the salaries of the civil servants to form a Superannuation Fund was unconditionally recommended. It is true that further recommendations were contemplated. He hoped that in a future Session a Bill would be introduced for the purpose of giving effect to these recommendations of the Commissioners. He did not disguise from their Lordships or himself the fact that the Bill would cause a large addition to the public burdens, but he quite concurred with the Commissioners in thinking that additional burden would be more than compensated by the great improvement it would cause in the relation of the Civil Service to the public. The noble Lord concluded by moving that the Bill be read a Second Time.
  LORD BELPERsaid, that having been one of the Commissioners who inquired into this subject he was desirous of stating that when they entered upon their inquiry their minds were entirely free from bias, and the unanimous conclusion to which they came was founded, not upon any wish to further the private interests of the Members of the Civil Service (with whom the Government had distinctly kept faith, for they were informed of the conditions upon which they entered the service), but solely and entirely to promote the public good. He could not help regretting that this measure was not introduced by Her Majesty's Government. The Commissioners were requested last year to report in time for legislation on the subject during the present Session, and their unanimous Report was presented at a period which gave ample opportunity to the Government to propose a Bill this Session. He should be the last person to complain of Her Majesty's Government for arriving at a conclusion adverse to that at which the Commissioners had arrived. It was undoubtedly the duty of the Government to consider the subject and to take their own view of it, but it was equally manifest that they ought to have submitted that view to Parliament. He regretted that it should have been left to an independent Member to bring forward a measure of his own for the purpose of carrying into effect one of the recommendations of the Commissioners, and that when that measure was so brought forward it should have been opposed by the Government, while they wholly omitted to say what were their views, or whether they intended to propose any measure to effectuate the recommendations of the Commissioners. He said this, not
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  so much with regard to the past as to the present, for he thought it was of importance that the Executive Government should, if they approved those recommendations, introduce a Bill with respect to them. This Bill dealt with only one of the recommendations of the Commissioners, and he took that opportunity of expressing his earnest hope that the other measures which had been suggested by them would receive the consideration of Her Majesty's Government during the ensuing recess. Some of those suggestions the Government might perhaps be able to carry into effect of their own authority, but others might require the sanction of Parliament. It was of the utmost importance not only to the civil servants, but to the Civil Service itself, that all the absurd discrepancies in the present most objectionable system should be put an end to, and he hoped that Her Majesty's Government would not imitate the negligence of previous Governments on this subject. That neglect, he believed, had occasioned the greater part of the difficulty connected with this subject, and that difficulty could not be overcome except by some temporary sacrifice. He therefore hoped that Her Majesty's Government would not fail to take the recommendations of the Commissioners into consideration, with the view of introducing next Session, on their own responsibility, such a measure as they conceived would lead to results satisfactory to the civil servants and promotive of the public interests.
  Bill read 2a, according to Order, and committed to a Committee of the whole House To-morrow.
  House adjourned at Eight o'clock till To-morrow half-past Ten o'clock.