§ THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, he would take the liberty of asking the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) a question respecting the Bill relating to Education which he had laid on the table. 36 His noble Friend had laid his Bill on the table without any explanation, with a view, no doubt, to its being printed and circulated throughout the country. That measure had occasioned considerable excitement in the country, and various opinions were expressed as to its merits. Since that Bill had been introduced, a measure of a much more comprehensive and extended character had been introduced by a noble Lord in the other House. It would, therefore, be very desirable if the noble Earl would inform their Lordships whether it was his intention to yield to that measure, or to persevere with his own Bill upon the subject?
§ EARL GRANVILLEIn answer to the question, of the noble Earl I may be permitted to say a few words in explanation of the intentions of the Government with regard to this Bill. If I remember right, on the first night of the Session some surprise was expressed by a noble Lord at not seeing any reference made to the subject of education in Her Majesty's Speech from the Throne. I then stated that the subject had been omitted because the Government did not then see any great prospect in the present Session of any great scheme of education being carried out. At the same time I added that it was far from the intention of the Government to neglect any means which might tend to promote education amongst the humble classes of the country. With this view I introduced into the House a small Bill to improve the constitution of the educational department of the Government. There have also been passed certain minutes of Privy Council for the purpose of extending those grants for educational purposes which had already conferred such important advantages, especially in the rural districts; but of course these minutes cannot be carried out until a vote of the other House of Parliament has been obtained. Whether anything further is to be done upon the subject at present is a matter for future consideration. Whatever differences of opinion exist as to the proper remedy to be applied—whether education, should be left to the voluntary system, to a system of state support, or to a system of local rating—whatever different plans may be proposed, Her Majesty's Government feel strongly that the present state of education in the country is not one which it is desirable to keep in statu quo. There is one fact which has been mentioned so often that few persons can be ignorant of 37 it, and it is one which proved how defective the present system of education is. It appears by the Census returns that there are 5,000,000 of young persons in England between the ages of five and fifteen years, 2,000,000 of whom it was stated attended schools, receiving more or less education therein; 1,000,000 were kept almost constantly at work; while there were 2,000,000 who were neither employed nor received any education whatever. Now this, I think, is a conclusive proof of the necessity of improving the present state of things. I may say, with regard to the Census returns, that in some parts of the country—particularly in Lincolnshire—great pains have been taken to ascertain the truth of those statistics. I myself, with the aid of the inspector of schools, took occasion to examine thoroughly one of the larger districts of London, for the purpose of seeing how far the accounts given by the Census returns were accurate. Now, in both instances the arithmetical accuracy of those returns was fully proved. Under those circumstances it is important for the Government to consider whether any Bill upon the subject of education should be introduced this Session by them. Certainly their experience of the Bills on the subject introduced by Members of different parties was not very encouraging, as to the chance of passing any effective Bill through Parliament this Session. It was also a matter for their consideration whether anything had been introduced into the previous Education Bills which could create any unnecessary or additional difficulty. It appeared to the Government that those Bills were almost too comprehensive—that they decided too many points—that they took too many precautions, and that they, therefore, enlisted against many parts of them objections from different classes of educationists, who differed amongst themselves as to what was objectionable or otherwise. I do not think there is a more remarkable feature in the English character than their unwillingness to commit themselves to any theory in matters of this sort, while nothing in practice is more likely to be carried out than a measure of this kind, when gentlemen in their own immediate districts set practically about such a work, and avoid questions which it is impossible to settle by legislative sanction. Although many representatives of opposite modes of thinking on the question of education in 38 the other House might not agree in a great many of the Resolutions proposed by their respective opponents, I should not be afraid to meet four or five of those gentlemen in their own district, and I should not despair of establishing practically a very good school, which would meet all the requirements of the neighbourhood. The Government have also to consider what Bills passed through Parliament last year. There were two Bills bearing on the subject of education which passed last Session. The one authorised the giving of assistance out of the poor rates, in regard to the education of the children of paupers receiving out-door relief. Another Bill, which was unanimously agreed to, allowed parishes, and districts, and all local governments, to raise rates for the support of public libraries. Whenever I shall have the honour of moving the second reading of the Bill to which the noble Earl has referred, I think I shall be able to show, even in the short working of those two Acts, some curious instances calculated to illustrate the advantages they have afforded in the promotion of education. I think I can also show cases in which certain parishes, by a voluntary system of rating for educational purposes, have conferred much comfort and satisfaction upon all classes in their neighbourhoods—parishes in which the clergymen have expressed their unanimous approbation of the system pursued, inasmuch as it had effectually put an end to all those disputes and inconveniences which had heretofore existed in reference to the subject. I think I should be able to show further that, in regard to the metropolitan districts especially, the ratepayers have not neglected to make the most munificent provision for the education of pauper children. For these reasons the Government have been of opinion that a Bill much more simple in character than those which have been already produced would have a better chance of meeting favour from both sides of the House. I should certainly be the last person to undervalue the advantages of the Committee of Privy Council on Education. I believe that the exertions of that Committee have increased enormously of late years. Your Lordships are hardly aware of the extent of those exertions and what good results have arisen from them. I shall be happy if I have an opportunity of making some statement upon this subject, and to rectify some impressions 39 which are generally supposed to be facts by many of those gentlemen who take part in these discussions. I, however, entirely concur in opinion with those who think that the beneficial efforts of the Committee of Council on Education might be increased with advantage;—but I cannot shut my eyes to the fact, that the time must come when the pressure upon any great central authority, if it have to conduct all the requirements of a general national education, will be greater than it can possibly sustain, and that, therefore, whatever the nature of the measure may be, we must have recourse to something like local and self government to carry on a system of education throughout the country. With those impressions the Bill which I proposed was one to enable the town councils and parishes to rate themselves for the purpose of promoting education. I know that a great many objections might be raised to such a plan. I will not go into them now, not wishing to anticipate the discussion that will, no doubt, arise upon the second reading of the Bill. The principle upon which the Government have gone in the Bill is this—to omit as much as possible all restrictions, and to leave to the good sense of the particular districts themselves to settle those questions which give rise to objections and to difficulties. I believe that that good sense will be able, in the majority of instances, to solve the questions of religious differences which Parliament can never decide upon satisfactorily. It is an experiment which I think well worthy of trial by your acceptance of the permissive Bill which I have had the honour of introducing. When I introduced that Bill, I gave no explanations whatever of its provisions, as it is my intention to move the second reading in a fortnight, when I shall enter into such a statement. My noble Friend (the Earl of Shaftesbury), who takes a great interest in the question, and other persons whom I have consulted on the subject, have suggested to me the propriety of postponing a little longer the consideration of this question, as the country generally may feel that they had been taken by surprise if any haste were shown by the Government in the settlement of this question. A debate has since taken place in the other House of Parliament, and Lord John Russell, speaking with that authority which always belongs to him, made one of the most comprehensive 40 statements on the present state of education that I have ever heard. I do not want to say a word as to any of the suggestions made by the noble Lord, except that they cannot fail, both from the intrinsic importance of the subject itself and the circumstance of their emanating from so distinguished an authority, to be carefully considered. The whole subject which is embraced in the noble Lord's Resolutions is likely to lead to considerable discussion, upon a much wider field than that afforded by the small Bill which I had the honour to introduce. It is quite possible that I shall further postpone the discussion upon this Bill until I have seen what the views entertained by the promoters of education are generally. I can only say when they approached this subject they would approach it with the same earnest desire as has been shown in another place, to come to a satisfactory conclusion upon this very important social question.
§ THE EARL OF HARDWICKEthought it would be a fit subject for the Government sitting in the Cabinet to consider the state of the education provided for the army and navy. He had called attention to the system of education provided for young officers in the navy, and had heard that something had been done; but what it was he could not tell. In the army there had been a great overthrow of education; establishments which had existed for years had been suddenly closed in the face of those whose names were down for admission to them. He wished to know what system of education was to be provided for the military and naval service, or whether there was to be none at all?
§ EARL GRANVILLEreplied, the subject referred to by the noble Earl had not been overlooked by the Government, who considered it of great importance and requiring its earnest attention.
§ THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, he did not mean to deny the accuracy of the Census returns; if, however, there were 2,000,000 children who were not receiving any education, it was not because there were no places of education for them; on the contrary, he believed that the places of education provided for children in this country would contain nearly half as many again as attended. He believed that education could not he universally carried out until it was made compulsory.
§ House adjourned till To-morrow.