HL Deb 19 June 1856 vol 142 cc1673-6

House in Committee according to order.

On Clause 1,

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH

said, he trusted that the effect of the measure would be to establish a permanent and uniform system of police throughout the country. For many years he had impressed upon the Government the necessity of such a measure, and he had urged it more especially at the commencement of the late war; because he was confident that the establishment of a police of the description contemplated by the Bill and that of a militia force were two measures which ought to be considered together, and which, so considered, would afford the best source for the recruitment of the army.

LORD PANMURE

said, that as far as the present Act had been extended, it had worked admirably, and it was desirable that a uniform system of police should be established throughout the country as soon as possible.

VISCOUNT DUNGANNON

fully admitted that the diffusion of police under a uniform system throughout the country would confer the greatest benefit on the population at large; but if the law were not made compulsory, there was danger that it would not be put in force.

LORD CAMPBELL

The present Bill is compulsory. [Viscount DUNGANNON dissented.] It is, and the counties must obey it.

VISCOUNT DUNGANNON

No.

LORD CAMPBELL

The measure is compulsory and they must and shall obey it. Wherever the police had been fully established in counties, he could bear judicial testimony to the decrease of crime. On the first occasion on which he visited Huntingdonshire, which had formerly been considered almost immaculate, he was surprised to find such a very heavy calendar. On making inquiries he found that all the surrounding counties had established a rural police, but that in Huntingdonshire there was nothing of the kind, the consequence of which was that the thieves and burglars of that part of the country all congregated in Huntingdonshire as their head quarters, whence they sallied forth to the adjacent counties, to be brought back ultimately to Huntingdon. He remonstrated with the grand jury on the subject, and the result was the establishment of a rural police, which remedied the evil.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 2 to 10 agreed to.

Clause 11 postponed, on Motion of Earl POWIS.

Clause 12 agreed to.

Clause 13, (Number of Police to be maintained in each district).

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH

said, it was provided by the clause that inspectors should be appointed to inquire into the state and efficiency of the police in every county; but by another clause those inspectors were required to "report" whether the police had been maintained in a state of "sufficiency" in point of number and discipline. In the original Act one per 1,000 had been fixed upon as the proportion of police to population; but it was impossible to say what should be the actual number of police in any particular district without taking into account its position and circumstances. What the Government wanted was a "sufficient" police, and he would suggest that the clause should be so altered as to bring the subject-matter of inquiry into harmony with what the inspectors were required to report upon.

LORD PANMURE

justified the wording of the clause, the object of which was different from that of the 14th clause, which described under what circumstances grants on account of the borough and county police should be made from the public funds, and those grants were not to be made unless the Home Secretary was satisfied that the numbers of police maintained were sufficient for the requirements of the district.

After a few words from Earl FORTESCUE and the Earl of DERBY, the words "numbers and discipline" were inserted; and clause agreed to.

Clause 14, (Proportion of Expense to be contributed by the Treasury).

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH

said, they had been told by a noble and learned Lord that this Bill was compulsory; but he should like to know in what manner counties could be compelled to carry it out. This clause did not appear to him to be compulsory, but held out an inducement. Did they expect that any county would incur a great expense merely on account of the inducement here held out of one-fourth being paid from another source? He did not think his county (Gloucestershire) would be tempted by the offer.

LORD CAMPBELL

, in reply to the noble Earl, had only to say that if the justices neglected to do a certain act which they were commanded to do by Parliament, and if the noble Earl would apply to the Court of Queen's Bench on the subject, the Court would grant a mandamus, and if they disobeyed that, then it would send them all to Gloucester gaol.

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH

You could compel them to form a police, but you could not compel them even by this bribe of one-fourth to make an efficient police.

The clause was then agreed to.

The other clauses agreed to.

Amendments made.

The Report thereof to be received on Tuesday next.