Lords Sitting of 19 June 1856

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Survey of Great Britain, &c.; Grand Juries; Oath of Abjuration Amendment.
2a West India Loans; Industrial and Provident Societies; Factories.
3a Sir William Fenwick Williams's Annuity.

OATH OF ABJURATION AMENDMENT BILL.
THE EARL OF DERBYpresented a Bill for amending the Oath of Abjuration. The noble Earl said, that his Amendment of the present Act was confined to striking out all the words which referred to the descendants of James II. He would not ask their Lordships to proceed further with the Bill until the result was known of the debate, which had been fixed for Monday next, on the abolition Bill brought up from the other House. If their Lordships should resolve to adopt the latter he would of course withdraw his Bill; if not, he would ask them to give it a second reading on an early day.
LORD CAMPBELLasked the noble Earl whether he intended to continue the words "upon the true faith of a Christian"?
THE EARL OF DERBYreplied, that his Bill was confined to the object he had stated—namely, the Amendment of the Oath of Abjuration by striking out the words referring to the Stuarts.
LORD CAMPBELLsuggested to the noble Earl that he might effect his object, which was a very laudable one, by moving an Amendment in Committee to the Bill which was about to come up from the other House.
THE EARL OF DERBYthanked the noble and learned Lord for his suggestion, but he did not think it would be either prudent or politic to adopt it.
Bill read 1a.

FACTORIES BILL.
THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, that, in asking their Lordships to give a second reading to this Bill, which had already passed the House of Commons, and which had there received the sanction of Her Majesty's Government—the more important clauses having, he believed, been framed under the direction of the Home Secretary—it would not be necessary for him to occupy much of their Lordships' time while, he explained the main principles of the measure. The main object of the Bill was to relieve the manufacturers from the inconveniences which would result from a construction recently put upon the Factory Amendment Act of 1844—a construction which, carried to its full extent, would in some cases render the operation of the Bill absolutely impracticable, and in others would involve an amount of expenditure, inconvenience, and annoyance for which no corresponding advantage could be derived. While, however, the Bill proposed to give effect to what he believed were the original intentions of the Act of 1844, and to place machinery and mill-gearing, which were now dealt with separately under that Act, precisely under the same conditions; it contained also, provisions which would, he thught, render some of the protective portions of that Act more available than they had hitherto been. He would remind their Lordships that the original Act of 1833 and the Amendment Act of 1844 were intended for the protection of children and young persons in factories. They were protected against over-work, over-hours, against being employed under a proper age, and against various hardships to which they were exposed. After the Act of 1833 came into operation, the factory inspectors continued to report upon the danger which these children ran owing to portions of the machinery not being properly fenced. Many of the manufacturers had of their own accord boxed off the upright shafts, and all those portions of the machinery likely to endanger children and young persons; and by the Act of 1844 that was made compulsory. There was another provision in the Act to this effect—that if the factory inspectors considered any portion of the machinery to be dangerous to the workmen they should give notice to the mill-owner, and the mill-owner, if he thought the requirement of the inspector was unjust, had the option of calling for an arbitration to decide whether or not the

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inspector's notice should be cancelled. In order to show that the manufacturers did not wish to make this provision a means of escape from the operation of the Bill, he might mention that arbitration had only been resorted to in seventeen instances, and in fourteen out of those seventeen cases a decision had been given against the manufacturer. Now, the same clause which required the fencing of all portions of the machinery with which young persons were likely to come into contact provided that all the mill-gearing should be fenced, and mill-gearing was, in point of fact, interpreted in the Act to mean all the motive power—that was to say, every shaft, every drum and pulley appertaining to the process of manufacture. It was clearly the intention of the framers of the Act that the same principle should be applied to mill-gearing as was applied to machinery—namely, that that with which the operatives came immediately into contact should be absolutely fenced, but that in cases where there was any doubt about the danger, manufacturers were to have the power of calling in arbitrators. By the terms of the Act, however, it was provided that all mill-gearing should be absolutely fenced. So far was this from being the construction put upon the Act by the manufacturers and inspectors that, in a case which was carried into one of the law courts, Mr. Justice Cresswell ruled that where a horizontal shaft, being part of the mill-gearing, was at the height of nine or ten feet from the ground, the very space between it and the heads of those employed below, amounted to the secure fencing required by the Act. The Court of Queen's Bench, however, decided that that was, in point of fact, repealing the Act of Parliament, and that, according to the Act, it was necessary for all the mill-gearing, whether in a dangerous position or not, to be securely fenced. In some cases such fencing was admitted by the factory inspectors to be impossible, and he might mention that there were cases in which the horizontal shafts extended for eight or nine miles, and at a height of nine or ten feet from the ground—a height which precluded the possibility of danger except from straps. Under such circumstances, he would ask their Lordships whether it was reasonable to enforce such an enormous expenditure as would be rendered necessary by the boxing off of that machinery. But the manufacturers did not ask Parliament to exempt this mill-gearing from
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being fenced. All they wished was, that mill-gearing should be put precisely on the same footing as machinery, namely—that where its position was a dangerous one to children and young persons there its fencing should be absolutely required, but that in other cases the arbitration applicable to machinery should be applicable to mill-gearing. That was, in point of fact, the whole object of the Bill so far as the protection of the manufacturer was concerned. But there was an omission in the Act of 1844 which this Bill was meant to supply. It was remarkable that, though that Act required all mill-gearing to be securely fenced, there was no specific penalty for the neglect of this precaution. There was a penalty of from £5 to £20 for neglect to enclose dangerous machinery, and there was also a penalty for neglect to enclose that portion to which the attention of the manufacturer had been specially directed by the factory inspector, in the event of an arbitration going against the mill-owner, but this was only after some accident had arisen from that neglect. The only clause which applied a penalty to the non-fencing oft he mill-gearing was a subsequent clause, by which it was enacted that, in the case of any offence left unprovided for in the former portion of the Act, a penalty of not less than £2 and not more than £5 was to be inflicted. Practically, therefore, the penalty attaching to the most important offence was the least in amount, and this penalty was only inflicted incidentally. The present Bill was intended to supply that omission. He had already stated that, unless some accident occurred from the neglect of the manufacturer to comply with the recommendations of the inspector after an arbitration had gone against him, no specific penalty was provided. By this Bill it would be enacted that if, within a reasonable time after the arbitration had gone against the manufacturer he failed to comply with the requirements of the inspector, no matter whether an accident had occurred or not, he should be liable to the same penalty as if an accident really had resulted from his neglect. These were the provisions proposed. The Bill in no way infringed upon the protection at present afforded to the operatives; on the contrary, it practically rendered that protection more efficient than before; but it released the manufacturer from a construction of the Act which the inspectors themselves admitted it would be impossible in all cases to act up to. He trusted that, after the

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explanations he had given, their Lordships would not hesitate to give the Bill a second reading.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, the measure met with his entire approbation. The language in the Act of 1844, which the Court of Queen's Bench was called upon to interpret, as alluded to by the noble Earl, appeared to them so plain that they could entertain no doubt about it. The Court decided upon the meaning of the Legislature as contained in the Act, although he did not believe that was the meaning of the framers of the Act.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYowned that it was most important that the question should be settled by the Legislature. He thought some of the clauses considerably limited the right of the operatives to obtain compensation for injuries which they might sustain from coming in contact with the machinery in factories. As he read the 6th clause of the Bill, it limited the operatives to obtaining any compensation for accidents caused by any portion of the machinery, except such portions of it as might be considered dangerous to children and young persons. Now, in the present Factory Act there was no such limitation. All these matters could, however, be discussed in Committee, and he certainly should not oppose the second reading of the Bill.
Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Tuesday next.

THE QUEEN'S MESSAGE—THE SAR DINIAN LOAN.
Order of the Day for considering Her Majesty's most gracious Message of Monday last read.
Message considered accordingly.
THE EARL OF CLARENDONsaid, in rising, my Lords, to ask your Lordships to agree to a humble Address to be presented to Her Majesty in reply to Her gracious Message, I have to state that the Convention which was laid upon your Lordships' table on Monday last had for its object to fulfil, not perhaps the letter, but certainly the spirit of the treaty concluded between Great Britain and Sardinia in 1855. With regard to that treaty, owing to an accident, for which the Sardinian Government was in no way responsible, a delay had taken place in the exchange of ratifications, and, consequently it was found impossible to bring in a Bill to give effect to it before the Easter of last year. A Bill
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was brought in after Easter, to which Her Majesty's assent was given on the 26th of April. The terms of that Convention were, that within twelve months the first instalment, £1,000,000, should be paid to Sardinia, and that, in the event of the war continuing, a like sum should be paid in the succeeding year. The first instalment of that loan was applied for on the 26th of April, and was paid on the 3rd of May. The treaty of peace with Russia was signed on the 27th of April—that is, a year and a day after the Royal assent was given to that Bill, and a year and a day after the first instalment had been applied for by the Sardinian Government. If, therefore, that instalment had been paid on the day upon which it was applied for, or if the treaty of peace had been signed two days later, the honour and good faith of this country would have been pledged by the letter of the treaty to pay the second sum of £1,000,000 as a matter of course; and as it is, I think, the country stands equally pledged to do so, if not according to the letter, at least according to the spirit of the treaty. Your Lordships are well aware that the loan was advanced to Sardinia for the sole and exclusive purpose of carrying on the war in which we were then engaged, and your Lordships also know well how great, and noble were the exertions made by that country. Sardinia had also made the necessary arrangements, and had incurred the expense of preparation for another campaign in the event of the continuance of the war. It was only the other day, in Paris, that Count Cavour, being desirous that there should be no disguise or concealment about the matter, but that full information should be afforded to Her Majesty's Government with regard to the application of this money, placed in my hands an official statement of the expense which had been incurred by Sardinia, and which amounted to 75,000,000f.—that is to say, to £1,000,000 more than this country will have advanced. I think, therefore, that I need say no more in order to induce your Lordships to ratify the spirit of the contract which we entered into with an Ally whose foreign and domestic policy has recommended itself to all classes, and has excited universal sympathy and admiration. The noble Earl concluded by moving an Address in answer to Her Majesty's gracious Message.
THE EARL OF DERBY: I rise, my Lords, to express my entire concurrence in

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the Address moved by the noble Earl. If it be the case—and it appears that it is the case—that, according to the letter of the engagement into which we have entered with Sardinia, we might escape the payment of this money, still I think that, under the circumstances of the case, it is perfectly clear that by the spirit of that, engagement the honour and good faith of the country are pledged to this advance. I quite concur with the noble Earl in thinking that if there is one country in the world with which we are bound more than with another to observe the most scrupulous good faith, it is a country which, at some risk to herself, came forward in the noble manner in which Sardinia did to take part in the struggle in which we have been engaged, and which, having thus come forward, behaved with the utmost loyalty and good faith and rendered most valuable service; nor is it her fault that those services were not rendered for a longer period. I must also say that, although such considerations ought not to actuate us in our foreign policy, it is impossible not to feel the deepest interest in the prosperity and well being of Sardinia. Situated in a position of great difficulty, she has known how to introduce a system of government hitherto unknown in Italy, and has established and sustained a representative system and a modified constitutional Government which stand out in bright and striking contrast with the despotism which prevails in some parts of Italy, and with the anarchy and revolutionary spirit in others. I should regret much to see added to the embarrassment of Sardinia a pecuniary embarrassment caused by the failure on the part of this country to discharge to the uttermost, and in the most extended spirit, any obligation into which we have entered.
Address agreed to, Nemine Dissentiente, and ordered to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

POLICE (COUNTIES AND BOROUGHS) BILL.
House in Committee according to order.
On Clause 1,
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he trusted that the effect of the measure would be to establish a permanent and uniform system of police throughout the country. For many years he had impressed upon the Government the necessity of such a measure, and he had urged
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it more especially at the commencement of the late war; because he was confident that the establishment of a police of the description contemplated by the Bill and that of a militia force were two measures which ought to be considered together, and which, so considered, would afford the best source for the recruitment of the army.
LORD PANMUREsaid, that as far as the present Act had been extended, it had worked admirably, and it was desirable that a uniform system of police should be established throughout the country as soon as possible.
VISCOUNT DUNGANNONfully admitted that the diffusion of police under a uniform system throughout the country would confer the greatest benefit on the population at large; but if the law were not made compulsory, there was danger that it would not be put in force.
LORD CAMPBELL: The present Bill is compulsory. [Viscount DUNGANNON dissented.] It is, and the counties must obey it.
VISCOUNT DUNGANNON: No.
LORD CAMPBELL: The measure is compulsory and they must and shall obey it. Wherever the police had been fully established in counties, he could bear judicial testimony to the decrease of crime. On the first occasion on which he visited Huntingdonshire, which had formerly been considered almost immaculate, he was surprised to find such a very heavy calendar. On making inquiries he found that all the surrounding counties had established a rural police, but that in Huntingdonshire there was nothing of the kind, the consequence of which was that the thieves and burglars of that part of the country all congregated in Huntingdonshire as their head quarters, whence they sallied forth to the adjacent counties, to be brought back ultimately to Huntingdon. He remonstrated with the grand jury on the subject, and the result was the establishment of a rural police, which remedied the evil.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 10 agreed to.
Clause 11 postponed, on Motion of Earl POWIS.
Clause 12 agreed to.
Clause 13, (Number of Police to be maintained in each district).
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, it was provided by the clause that inspectors

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should be appointed to inquire into the state and efficiency of the police in every county; but by another clause those inspectors were required to "report" whether the police had been maintained in a state of "sufficiency" in point of number and discipline. In the original Act one per 1,000 had been fixed upon as the proportion of police to population; but it was impossible to say what should be the actual number of police in any particular district without taking into account its position and circumstances. What the Government wanted was a "sufficient" police, and he would suggest that the clause should be so altered as to bring the subject-matter of inquiry into harmony with what the inspectors were required to report upon.
LORD PANMUREjustified the wording of the clause, the object of which was different from that of the 14th clause, which described under what circumstances grants on account of the borough and county police should be made from the public funds, and those grants were not to be made unless the Home Secretary was satisfied that the numbers of police maintained were sufficient for the requirements of the district.
After a few words from Earl FORTESCUE and the Earl of DERBY, the words "numbers and discipline" were inserted; and clause agreed to.
Clause 14, (Proportion of Expense to be contributed by the Treasury).
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, they had been told by a noble and learned Lord that this Bill was compulsory; but he should like to know in what manner counties could be compelled to carry it out. This clause did not appear to him to be compulsory, but held out an inducement. Did they expect that any county would incur a great expense merely on account of the inducement here held out of one-fourth being paid from another source? He did not think his county (Gloucestershire) would be tempted by the offer.
LORD CAMPBELL, in reply to the noble Earl, had only to say that if the justices neglected to do a certain act which they were commanded to do by Parliament, and if the noble Earl would apply to the Court of Queen's Bench on the subject, the Court would grant a mandamus, and if they disobeyed that, then it would send them all to Gloucester gaol.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH:
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You could compel them to form a police, but you could not compel them even by this bribe of one-fourth to make an efficient police.
The clause was then agreed to.
The other clauses agreed to.
Amendments made.
The Report thereof to be received on Tuesday next.

REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
THE BISHOP OF OXFORDmoved an Amendment to the fifth clause—a power to the magistrates to send the juvenile offenders to the schools without sending them to prison. The prison might be full, and at all events it seemed absurd to send the boys to the contamination of a gaol before commencing the process of reformation. The effect of the clause would be that the magistrates might commute the sentence of imprisonment in a gaol to confinement in the school.
LORD RAVENSWORTHsaid, he had had no notice of the Amendment, which was one of great importance. The main feature of the Bill was, that it abstained from introducing any new principle; and surely no new principle should be introduced without any notice, especially one so important. The question whether magistrates should have power to send boys at once to the schools, without sentencing them to imprisonment, had been much mooted.
THE BISHOP OF OXFORDsaid, he would move his Amendment on the third reading.
LORD RAVENSWORTHsaid, the question was certainly one of great interest, and well worthy of consideration.
Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn; and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday the 3rd of July next.

SIR W. FENWICK WILLIAMS'S ANNUITY BILL—DEATH OF CAPTAIN THOMPSON.
On the Order of the Day for the third reading of this Bill,
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: My Lords, I wish to say a few words on a subject that will not, I am sure, be regarded as wholly alien to the Bill which is about to be passed with unanimity in this House and satisfaction to the country. I desire to draw your Lordships' attention to a lamentable

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event which has occurred within the last week. I allude to the death of one of the three gallant British officers who assisted General Williams in the ever-memorable defence of Kars—namely, Major Teesdale, Colonel Lake, and Captain Thompson. The last and youngest of these brave officers, Captain Thompson, after distinguishing himself in India, where he served for ten years, and was wounded in the Burmese war, repaired to Asia Minor, and, as we all know, afforded most material aid in the defence of Kars, and especially in the great victory of the 29th of September. His conduct on that occasion has been specially described by his commander General Williams and by Dr. Sandwith. On his release from captivity, he returned with Colonel Lake to this country about a week ago, expecting, doubtless, to reap those honours which his country is always ready to bestow, and to receive in the bosom of his family those proud congratulations which his fame could not fail to awaken. It did not, however, please the Almighty that he should be thus rewarded; for within four days of his arrival in London, he died in his mother's arms. My Lords, I think I never heard of a more afflicting misfortune than that which has befallen Mrs. Thompson. I believe that if that bereaved Lady could have had her choice, she would have preferred to hear that her brave son had fallen on the field of battle, rather than that he should have expired, as he has done, at the moment when her maternal pride and happiness were about to be consummated by his return to his native land. But, my Lords, it is not to ask you to deplore the loss of this lamented officer that I have risen to address you—indeed, I am not sure that an early and even a premature death need excite deep regret for the sake of the deceased himself, when such an event has closed a life of honour; but I have learnt with great concern, that his mother is not possessed of a fortune that can assure to her those comforts which all must desire that she should enjoy; and if your Lordships will excuse my reading a letter which I have received from an intimate friend of the family, it will explain in a few words the matter which I wish to bring under your notice. This gentleman writes to me as follows:—
"I feel convinced, knowing the straitened circumstances of his widowed mother, that at least one quarter of her annual income will be
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swallowed up in meeting the charges attendant upon the illness and funeral of her lamented son; and I can assure your Lordship that so fixed is her income, and so partitioned out to meet the yearly expenses of a large family, that it is with the utmost difficulty that funds can be provided to enable her to go to the seaside, immediately after her son's funeral (which takes place tomorrow), on the physician's recommendation, who says he will not answer for her life, so plunged in grief is she, if she does not get change of air and scene."
My Lords, I am not authorised to appeal to this House or to the Government for anything like charitable assistance for Mrs. Thompson—I do not even know whether or not such a thing would be acceptable to her or her family; but I could not refrain from taking this opportunity to apprise the Government of the circumstances in which this unfortunate lady is placed.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: In the absence of any previous knowledge of the circumstances to which my noble Friend had just adverted, I am not prepared on the part of the Government to give any assurance on the subject to which he has referred. At the same time, I am exceedingly sorry that such a statement should have been made to this House, in, terms so just and with a feeling so honourable as that evinced by my noble Friend, without its being possible to give to it an immediate response; neither I, nor those with whom I have the honour to act, being aware of the position of a lady whose affliction must elicit for her the lively sympathy of every one of your Lordships and of the public. My noble Friend has done justice on this sad occasion to the merits of that eminent man, General Williams. That brave officer has, under the peculiar circumstances in which he was placed, had the good fortune, and the glory, I may say, to found a military school. His assistants and pupils have all equally distinguished themselves in their short but brilliant career; and they are, therefore, entitled to the admiration and respect of the country, as well as to the favourable consideration of the Government; and none of these was more distinguished than the gallant officer whose loss we now deplore. Further than this, I cannot go now; and I can only undertake that the circumstances to which my noble Friend has directed attention shall be made known in the proper quarter.
Bill read 3a and pasted.
House adjourned to Monday next.