Lords Sitting of 13 June 1856

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Aldershot Camp; West India Loans.
2a Police (Counties and Boroughs).
3a Pawnbrokers; Mercantile Law Amendment; Mercantile Law (Scotland) Amendment; County Courts Acts Amendment.

DISEMBODIMENT OF THE IRISH MILITIA —QUESTION.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE, in rising to put the question of which he had given notice, said he hoped the Irish militia regiments would not be disembodied until the harvest was fully commenced. In Ireland, the month of July was generally termed "starvation month," and it was certain that, if disembodied before there was any demand for labour in the country, much distress would be occasioned among these men. One point in connection with this subject was, he thought, worth the consideration of the Government. It was well known that the relations between this country and the United States was not at this moment in so satisfactory a state as could be wished, and, while nothing was more to be deprecated than a war between the two nations, he looked upon it as excessively injudicious to disband the Irish militia regiments at a moment when a rupture was even possible. The 17,000 men who composed the Irish militia were drawn exclusively from that class of the population in the sister country which had furnished such vast numbers of emigrants to the United States. Of these militiamen there was scarcely one who had not friends in that country, and, if disbanded now, it was to be apprehended that a very large proportion would emigrate to the States. He thought he should not be overstating the case when he said it was probable that out of these 17,000 men very nearly 10,000, if the force were disembodied, would, in the course of the next two months, join their friends in the United States. If that were the case, and if there were any danger of a rupture with America, he did think it worth while considering whether a little additional expense in keeping these regiments together would not be well laid out. We had been training these soldiers and rendering them efficient for the defence of the country; but if we disbanded them, and war should break out with America, many of these men would, in the nature of
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things, be found in our enemy's country—perhaps fighting in her ranks against us. The noble Lord (Lord Panmure), in answering a question put to him the other night, informed their Lordships that the disembodiment of the German Legion had been for the present suspended, with a view to sending them to the Cape of Good Hope. Now, he did not know what peculiar service the German Legion had rendered to the Crown to entitle them to such great consideration, but it did strike him as extraordinary that so great a favour should be shown to a body of foreign mercenaries, who had not had the opportunity of distinguishing themselves in any way, that these men should be sent at the expense of the Crown to one of our colonies; that their interests should be looked after while the Queen's own subjects embodied in the Irish militia were dismissed with nothing but their pay, at a moment when the labour market was so overstocked as at present. He wished, therefore, to ask the noble Lord whether it was the intention of the Government to disembody any large portion of the Irish militia before the harvest?
LORD PANMUREsaid, that the noble Earl appeared to imagine that it was intended to adopt a course with regard to the Irish militia different from that adopted with regard to the Scotch and English militia; but such was by no means the case. He could see no reason why the Irish militia should not be disembodied on the same principle as the English and Scotch militia. In England, where regiments had been disembodied, the men had left their standards perfectly satisfied, and practically speaking, had been very generally absorbed into the labour-market. With reference to the Irish militia, he did not apprehend that its disembodiment would give rise to emigration to anything like the extent anticipated by the noble Earl, and he felt assured that at any rate they would not employ the knowledge and discipline which they had recently gained in the service of their country to its disadvantage. It was somewhat unconstitutional to maintain a large force of militia embodied in time of peace; but, at the same time, in disembodying the militia it was necessary to have regard to the condition of the country and the state of the labour-market. He could only add that it was the intention of the Government, using the necessary precaution, to disembody the Irish militia as speedily as possible, and on the same principle as the

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militia of England and Scotland. With regard to the German Legion, he would remind the noble Earl that he stated, on the occasion referred to, that it was one of the conditions of their enlistment, that they should either be conveyed back to their own country free of expense, or settled in a British colony.
THE MAKQUESS OF CLANRICARDEthought that there was a distinction made between the Irish militia and the English militia, inasmuch as the English militia was raised in time of peace, thanks to the measure of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby), while the Irish militia was raised in haste in a time of war.

OUR RELATIONS WITH THE UNITED STATES—DISMISSAL OF MR. CRAMPTON—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF DERBY: In consequence, my Lords, of the very serious character of the intelligence said to have been received within the last few days from the United States of America, and of the critical state of our relations with that country, I shall abstain from offering any comment upon the question which I feel it my duty to put to her Majesty's Government, and I hope that in so doing I shall meet with the approbation of your Lordships. The question which I wish to put to the noble Earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs is, whether, within the last few days, the Government have received any official information from the American Minister at this Court of the intention of the Government of the United States to suspend all diplomatic intercourse with this country by dismissing Mr. Crampton and withdrawing the exequaturs from the three British consuls? I wish to know, also, whether, if there were any such communication, it was made in writing; and, if so, whether Her Majesty's Government object, without delay, to lay that communication before Parliament? I wish, also, to know, whether, in the event of such a communication having been received, Her Majesty's Government are prepared to state to Parliament the course which they intend to advise Her Majesty to pursue?
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, in reply to the question of the noble Earl, I have to state, that the day before yesterday Mr. Dallas, the American Minister at this Court, communicated to me a despatch from his Government, in which it was stated that the assurances
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given by Her Majesty's Government were satisfactory as regarded the fact of no instructions having been sent, and of no intention having existed on the part of this Government in any way to violate or infringe the law of the United States: but that the answer given to Mr. Dallas with respect to Mr. Crampton and our consuls was not equally satisfactory, and it appeared that they were still to be considered as representatives unacceptable to the Government of the United States, and that the President had therefore determined upon sending Mr. Crampton his passports, and withdrawing the exequaturs from the three consuls. This despatch was read to me by Mr. Dallas, and a copy of it has been furnished to me; but Her Majesty's Government have not yet finally determined upon the course which they will recommend Her Majesty to pursue. As soon as they have arrived at a final determination it will be their duty to lay a copy of the despatch on the table of the House, and to announce to Parliament the decision to which they have come. I think it right also to mention that Mr. Dallas, at the same time, in communicating to me another despatch relating to questions with regard to Central America, informed me that Mr. Marcy had stated that there were certain points upon which it was possible that the arbitration of a third Power might be usefully resorted to; but that, at the same time, his opinion was that the whole question might be settled by direct negotiation between the two Governments.

POLICE (COUNTIES AND BOROUGHS) BILL.
LORD PANMURE, in rising to move the second reading of this Bill (in the absence from illness of the Lord President of the Council), stated that the subject was one in which he had formerly taken a great deal of interest. When the original Bill was introduced, in 1839, it had been his duty, as Under Secretary of State for the Home Department, to pay a considerable amount of attention to the question, and he had himself introduced the Bill of 1840; so that he was not altogether without some knowledge of the bearings of the case. The adoption of the Acts of 1839 and 1840 was entirely optional and permissive. He believed that they were now in operation over about one-half of the area and among one-half the population of England and Wales. In

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the other half of the kingdom the old system of parish constables still prevailed. It might have been supposed that after a lapse of sixteen or seventeen years the more improved system of police provided for by those Acts would have been more generally adopted; but, although that had not been the case, he believed that it was admitted that wherever it had been applied the most beneficial effects had resulted, and that in no part of the country where it had been once adopted had it ever been abandoned. In the year 1853 the whole subject was referred to a Committee of the House of Commons. That Committee went with great care into an examination of all the facts connected with the administration of the rural police, and the Members unanimously concurred in coming to a Resolution to this effect: that the appointment of district constables under the Rural Police Act had failed to provide such a general and uniform constabulary force as was essential for the prevention of crime throughout the country; but that wherever the system had been adopted it had succeeded beyond expectation. The Committee then agreed to the following declaratory Resolution:—
"That it is, in the opinion of this Committee, most desirable that legislative measures should be introduced without delay by Her Majesty's Government, rendering the adoption of an efficient police force on an uniform principle imperative throughout Great Britain."
It was for the purpose of carrying into effect this Resolution that the present Bill had been submitted to Parliament. It differed from the measure of 1840 mainly in this respect, that whereas the Act of 1840 had been permissive, this Bill was to be compulsory; and when their Lordships considered the changes which had taken place in the matter of punishments in this country, more especially with reference to the ticket-of-leave system, which cast a large class of the criminal population upon the community, he thought they would admit that it was clearly a matter of national importance that there should be established throughout the length and breadth of the country such a system of police as should afford an efficient protection to life and property. The Bill which he had the honour to propose did not in any way interfere with the management of the police by the local authorities in counties and boroughs. It had been introduced in the other House of Parliament,
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and he was happy to think, from the manner in which it had been received there, that it was by no means regarded as a political or party measure. It had been carried by the immense majority of 153 votes; and in the same lobby might have been seen both the Secretary of State for the Home Department, under the present Government, and the right hon. Gentleman who had so well administered the duties of that office under the noble Earl opposite. All parties, therefore, with some singular exceptions, seemed to be agreed that the time had come when the adoption of the Rural Constabulary Act should be made compulsory and universal. The details of the Bill, he thought, might be more usefully considered in Committee. He did not anticipate that any of their Lordships would object to the second reading. He did not pretend that the Bill would establish a perfect system—but it was a great improvement upon that which at present existed, and by leading to the more speedy detection of crime, would extend to all classes that protection for life and property which it was the duty of every well-regulated Government to provide. The noble Lord moved that the Bill be now read a second time.
Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

PRIVATE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD REDESDALE LORD REDESDALE rose, pursuant to notice, to move—
"That a Committee of Five Lords, with the Chairman of Committees, be appointed, to whom the Chairman may refer any Provision in a Private Bill during the present Session, either before or after the Report of such Bill, on which he may think it desirable that the House should have a Report from such Committee before the passing of the Bill: Three to be a Quorum."
The object of the Resolution was to give such assistance to the chairman of Committees as would enable him to examine private Bills before they passed into law, and introduce some uniform system. Many abuses now prevailed; one was the system of getting up a fictitious opposition to a Bill, and so removing it from the charge of the Chairman of the Committees; the opposition was then withdrawn, and the most important clauses never came under the consideration of the Select Committee to which it was referred.
THE EARL OF CLANCARTYasked

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whether the new Committee would consider the general merits of a Bill?
LORD REDESDALEreplied that they would only consider such provisions as would not come before the ordinary Committee.
Resolution agreed to.
The Lords following were named of the Committee:—The Duke of SOMERSET; the Earl of STRADBROKE; the Lord COLCHESTER; the Lord PORTMAN; the Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY.
House adjourned to Monday next.