HL Deb 24 July 1856 vol 143 cc1352-5

Commons' Amendments to One of the Lords' Amendments, and their Reasons for disagreeing to several of the Lords' Amendments, considered (according to Order).

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

said, he was sorry to find that the noble Duke (the Duke of Buccleuch) intended to persist in the Amendments he had succeeded in introducing in this House, notwithstanding the disagreement of the House of Commons from those Amendments. Knowing, however, the authority which the noble Duke possessed with their Lordships, and that he commanded a majority of that House, he (the Duke of Argyll) should not think it worth while to trouble their Lordships with a division; but would simply say "Not content" to the Motion that this House do insist upon the Amendments made by them in this Bill. In his opinion, the principal fault in the present Bill was, that it gave to the heritors too much power in the choice of schoolmasters, and not power enough to the ratepayers. He must repeat his regret that this Bill, which was a compromise between the two parties in Scotland, was not agreed to by the noble Duke. He conceived that they must fall back in Scotland upon what was called the denominational system. In England there could be no doubt that that system, under the aids granted by the Committee of Privy Council, had, on the whole, operated in favour of the Established Church. In Scotland he did not believe that it would operate in the same manner. There was a feeling of jealousy and dislike on the part of the Free Church against the great landowners of Scotland, which was aroused in 1843, and which, he was sorry to say, had not yet diminished. They had in Scotland a great rival body conducting most successfully a system of education.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

said, that he should insist upon the Amendments of their Lordships, with the exception of the first. The compromise of which his noble Friend spoke he regarded as nothing else than the yielding up of the great principle upon which the parochial schools of Scotland were founded. Something had been said in another place respecting the application of the "screw;" but he understood it had been held out that if this Bill did not pass, the schoolmasters would receive no salary, and be left to starve; if the term "screw" was applicable to anything at all, surely it might be to a threat like that. As to introducing the influence of the ratepayers—in many parishes of Scotland there were no ratepayers at all, and the heritors were the only persons to whom the schoolmasters could look for maintenance and support. So far as the Bill carried out the principle laid down in the preamble—"That it was expedient to make further provision for schoolmasters," there could be no objection to it; but he did object to the mode in which it proceeded to alter and regulate the system of schools. What was a good argument for dealing with the schools might hereafter be an equally good argument for the Church, and he looked upon the measure, in short, as but a first step towards a direct attack upon the Establishment. It was only in 1850 that his noble Friend delivered a speech in which he argued that the present system of education in Scotland was a national system; and certainly it was not more national then than it was at this moment. The education was not confined to one sect, for the children of parents of all denominations were freely admitted into the schools and received their instruction there; and the only objection which the noble Duke and some of his Friends could urge against it was, that they could not subscribe to the formula of the Church of Scotland. He (the Duke of Buccleuch) assured his noble Friend that he had no personal hostility whatever towards the Free Church. So far from that, a large number of persons for whom he entertained the highest respect, and also several of his own intimate friends, were members of that communion. If, therefore, there was any personal feeling mixed up in the matter it was on the part of others, not his. He should insist upon all their Lordships' Amendments with the exception of the first.

LORD PANMURE

said, he was afraid that the opposition to this Bill rested on an unfounded opinion that it was chiefly advocated by the Free Church of Scotland; but, in truth, it mattered little to that Church, as a Church, whether the Bill passed or not. He should not abandon the hope that, at some future time, the parochial schools would be placed on a more reasonable footing than at present.

Then it was moved, not to insist on Clause A., added by the Lords to the Bill, to which the Commons disagree; agreed to: Then it was moved, to agree to the Amendment made by the Commons reinstating Clauses XII. and XIV.; on Question, Resolved in the Negative: Then it was moved, not to insist on the Omission of Clause XVIII., to which the Commons disagree; on Question, Whether to insist? Resolved in the Affirmative; and a Committee appointed to prepare Reasons to be offered to the Commons for the Lords disagreeing to One of the Commons Amendments to the Lords Amendments, and insisting on One of the Lords Amendments to which the Commons disagree: The Committee to meet immediately: The Committee reported Reasons prepared by them; the same were read, and agreed to; and a Message was Ordered to be sent to the Commons to return the Bill, with the Amendments and Reasons.

House adjourned till To-morrow.