§ LORD LYNDHURSTgave notice, that at two o'clock to-morrow he should move that their Lordships resolve themselves into a Committee of Privileges, to examine and consider the copy of the Letters Patent purporting to create the Right Honourable Sir James Parke, Knight, a Baron of the United Kingdom for Life (presented to the House on Monday last), and to report thereon to the House.
THE LORD CHANCELLORhoped that his noble and learned Friend would state what course he intended to pursue in reference 509 to this question; because, merely to say that he would move for a Committee of Privileges with respect to a certain peer-age, without stating the precise course he intended to adopt, would be to leave their Lordships in ignorance.
§ LORD LYNDHURSTobserved, that it was impossible to do that now. In making his Motion, he should state his own view of the case. The noble Earl opposite (Earl Grey) might possibly take a very different view, and the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack would, perhaps, state a view peculiar to himself. After all those views had been considered, the House would decide upon the course to be pursued. If he were to make any suggestions at present, his remarks would only lead to a desultory and irregular discussion.
§ EARL GREYobserved that, if the House were to be asked to go into Committee of the Whole House upon this subject, without any more information than it now possessed, it would be placed in a state of extreme difficulty and embarrassment. It was precisely the apprehension of that difficulty and embarrassment which pressed upon his mind, and induced him to endeavour to prevail on their Lordships not to go into a Committee of the Whole House, but rather to refer the matter to a Committee up stairs; in which case nothing could be more regular than to withhold any intimation of the course proposed to be pursued by the noble and learned Lord the Mover of the Committee. But if the noble and learned Lord intended to propose any particular course in his speech, surely it would be more regular that the ordinary course should be adhered to, and that at all events the Motion he intended to move, or the sort of Resolution he intended to suggest, should be placed upon the Votes, so that noble Lords might have some notion of what shape this important question would take. In his opinion, any other course would involve considerable confusion. Without, therefore, asking the noble and learned Lord to say anything at present, he earnestly entreated him to place sufficient information on the Votes to-night to enable the House to-morrow morning to form some notion of the course which he intended to pursue.
§ LORD LYNDHURSTsaid, that in support of his argument it would be necessary to investigate evidence in a much greater degree of minuteness than it was possible to investigate it to-night, and it was not advisable to separate the statement from 510 the evidence. After their Lordships had examined and discussed the evidence, they would probably report to the House.
§ EARL GREYasked the noble and learned Lord whether it was his intention to call witnesses and examine them at the bar of the House, as the last observation seemed to imply? If so, he must say that it was not consonant with the ordinary practice of the House and the convenience of their Lordships that those who might take a different view from that of the noble and learned Lord should be called together as a Committee of Privileges, without any intimation as to the precise object to be attained.
§ LORD LYNDHURSTWhen I say that evidence will be produced, it follows of course that witnesses will be examined.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYthought, that the subject-matter with which the Committee would have to deal was perfectly well known to their Lordships. A certain patent was disputed, and the grounds upon which it was disputed were fully stated in the debate the other evening, when their Lordships conceived that there was at least so strong a ground for doubting the validity of the patent that they thought it was, according to precedent, their duty to inquire into its validity. The question, as he understood it, was simply whether it was competent to the Crown, without the assent of Parliament, to confer on any commoner the dignity of a peerage with a right to sit in that House by virtue of a patent limited to the life of a Peer, or for any other term short of perpetual inheritance. He imagined that that was the question which the Committee would have to investigate, and it would no doubt be very material, in enabling them to arrive at a proper judgment, to search the Journals of the House and examine into precedents for any previous exercise in any time, however remote, of such a prerogative on the part of the Crown. He apprehended that the first thing to be done was, to examine into documentary and oral evidence, and to search the journals for precedents, in reference to the present claim. What other evidence might be required, or what future course he should ask the Committee to take for the purpose of satisfying themselves upon the subject which the House had referred to them, were questions which his noble and learned Friend was not at present called upon to answer.
§ EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he did not agree with the noble Earl that the point to 511 be decided in the Committee was, whether the exercise of the prerogative in granting this life Peerage to Lord Wensleydale was illegal or not, or that that was the question which it was proposed to settle by an examination of the precedents recorded in the journals of this House, and afterwards, as proposed by the noble and learned Lord, by an examination of witnesses at the bar.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYwould thank the noble Earl not to put words into his mouth, which he did not use. He did not say that the question was as to the legality of such an exercise of the prerogative, but whether it was competent to the Crown, by an exercise of prerogative, to grant a life peerage with the right to sit in their Lordships' House?
§ EARL GRANVILLEdid not wish to misrepresent the noble Earl in the slightest degree. He certainly understood him to say that the question which had arisen in the House was one of legality. The noble Earl began by stating that the legality of the step which the Government had taken had been disputed.
LORD BROUGHAMdid not sec what the noble Earl opposite and his noble Friend (the Earl of Derby) were disputing about: he could not for the life of him see the difference between their statements. The real question was, whether or not it was competent to the Crown to grant a life peerage—and a grave and important question it was, one which could not be too fully, deliberately, and, he would add, too, calmly considered. Whether it was incompetent or illegal was of little consequence if it was shown to be unconstitutional.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEobserved that the words "incompetent" or "illegal," applied in such a case, were equally strong. As he understood, their first proceeding would be to call witnesses to the bar of the House.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he thought that the question which the Committee of Privileges would have to determine was, whether the Crown had power, by virtue of its prerogative, to grant a patent to enable a commoner to whom a barony was granted for life to sit and vote in that House. They were not to consider generally whether the patent was wholly null and void; but whether a particular part of it was within the power of the Crown—whether the Royal prerogative could enable a Baron for life to sit in Parliament and to have all the privileges in Parliament belonging 512 to hereditary barons. The question was, was that beyond the power of the Crown? They were not at all bound to say whether the patent ought to be cancelled, or whether it might not confer certain privileges or not; but whether it conferred this particular privilege. In considering such a question they would have to fall back on the lex et consuetudo Parliamenti; and having sought for precedents of life peerages which had been granted with power to sit in Parliament in former times, and having ascertained their character, they would be in possession of information which would enable them to form a judgment as to what would be the proper Resolution for the Committee to come to.
§ LORD ST. LEONARDSwas afraid that he should be obliged to be absent from the House to-morrow; but was extremely anxious to hear the statements which would be made on moving for the Committee. He inquired if it were possible to fix the Motion for another day?
§ EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the question ought, more properly, to be put to the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Lyndhurst); but after the Resolution adopted by their Lordships the other evening, and the strong expression of the majority as to the inconvenience attending this matter, he would remind the noble and learned Lord (Lord St. Leonards) that that inconvenience might be increased in many different ways if any delay should take place.