Lords Sitting of 8 February 1856

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament.—The Lord Delamere, after the Death of his Father.
PUBLIC BILL.—1a Vice President of Committee of Council on Education.

THE FERMOY PEERAGE.
The EARL OF DERBYsaid, it would be in the recollection of their Lordships that last Session he had taken occasion to raise a question as to the validity of a patent which had been granted to a gentleman named Roche, constituting him Baron Fermoy, in the peerage of Ireland; and the ground of objection he took to the patent was, that there had not then become extinct the three Irish peerages necessary to enable Her Majesty to create a new one. The question involved considerations of great legal and constitutional importance; and he (the Earl of Derby) then proposed that the matter should be referred to a Committee of Privileges. It had, however, been suggested that upon Baron Fermoy presenting his petition in the ordinary way, praying that he might be allowed to substantiate his right to vote for a representative Peer for Ireland, the question would more properly arise. He had waited, therefore, for the commencement of the present Session, and he had I been given to understand by the noble Earl the President of the Council, that in the course of a few days Lord Fermoy's petition would be presented. Fortunately the case was now deprived of all personal interest as far as the noble Lord was concerned. Lord Fermoy could not now be affected in the slightest degree by the result of the inquiry; for since last Session another Irish peerage had become extinct, and consequently the only difference the inquiry would make to the noble Lord I would be whether his peerage was to date I from 1855 or 1856. He (the Earl of Derby) wished to ask his noble Friend whether there was any reason to believe that the petition of Lord Fermoy would in a short time be presented? If it were not so presented before the end of a fortnight, he should move that the subject should be referred to a Committee of Privileges.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that before the opening of the present Session he had received a letter from Lord Fermoy expressing his earnest desire that that question should be brought to a decision as soon

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as possible, and asking him (Earl Granville) whether he concurred in his feeling upon the subject. He had answered that question in the affirmative, and had requested Lord Fermoy to desire his legal adviser to call on him in London. He had seen that gentleman; and from his interview with him he had found that a petition in favour of Lord Fermoy's claim had been drawn up last Session, but had since been mislaid, and that another would be immediately prepared. He (Earl Granville) was in daily expectation that that petition would be laid before the House; and he took it for granted that their Lordships would receive it previously to the expiration of the fortnight, at the end of which period his noble Friend had given notice that he would bring forward his Motion.

VICE PRESIDENT OF COMMITTEE OF COUNCIL ON EDUCATION BILL.
EARL GRANVILLE presented a Bill for the Appointment of a Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education. It was proposed by the Bill that that officer should have a seat in the House of Commons; and on the occasion of the second reading he would take the opportunity of explaining to their Lordships the nature of the changes to be effected by an Order in Council, transferring certain departments at present connected with other offices to the Vice Presidency of the Council.
Bill read la.

BARON WENSLEYDALE—QUESTION.
EARL GREY: In the absence of the noble and learned Lord who moved the Resolution the House adopted last night (Lord Lyndhurst), I beg leave to ask the noble and learned Lord Chief Justice, whether he can give us any information as to the period when the Committee of Privileges which has been voted is to sit, and what is the course that it is intended we should take upon that question?
LORD CAMPBELL: In the absence of my noble and learned Friend it is impossible for me to give any satisfactory answer to the question that has been addressed to me. But I may take this opportunity of expressing a hope that a course will be adopted by Her Majesty's Government which will render the meeting of the Committee of Privileges unnecessary. Of course I cannot take upon myself to give advice to Her Majesty's Government; they can have that advice from other quarters
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much more entitled to consideration; but as a Member of this House I may earnestly express a hope that they will take a step which would, in my opinion, be of infinite advantage; and that is that they will recommend Her Majesty graciously to confer on the right lion. Sir James Parke, late Baron of the Exchequer, the title of Baron Wensleydale, to be enjoyed by him and the heirs male of his body. That being done, we shall most joyously receive him in this House, and thus put an end to an agitation which scorns to me calculated to lead to no good. Nothing would thereby be decided; the question would be still left open; and if a pressing necessity should arise for making a Peer for life, that may still be done as well as it can he done now. I am sure I should rejoice exceedingly if this course were adopted, and I do most sincerely feel that it would be of great service to the nation at large.
THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I certainly have still less right than the noble and learned Lord opposite to offer any recommendation, or even to make any suggestion, to Her Majesty's Government. But I cannot help feeling that the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord is one that is well deserving of their consideration, inasmuch as I am quite sure it cannot be their object to raise unnecessarily a question which is manifestly one of extreme difficulty as between the Prerogative of the Crown and the House of Lords. Even if there could be no doubt as to the legality of this creation, yet—after what passed in the House last night—after the general opinion expressed upon this subject by the law Lords—by the Lord Chief Justice, who, as far he can take any part in politics, is attached to Her Majesty's Government—by my noble and learned Friends near me, and by all the great law authorities in this House, save and except the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack—after they had all, with that exception, given their opinion that even if this precedent was strictly legal, it is in the highest degree unconstitutional—after noble Lords who usually support Her Majesty's Government have recorded their votes last night in opposition to the course which has been adopted in this case, and thus proved at least how distasteful that exercise of the prerogative would be to this House—I cannot but think that Her Majesty's Government would be consulting the public interest, and also, what I consider identified with the public interest, the rights of

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the Crown, if they did not unnecessarily raise this question of prerogative, and if they consented—not to cancel the patent— but to issue a fresh patent which would involve no new consequences to the individual immediately interested in the subject. That second patent might be produced with the writ when Lord Wensleydale shall come to take his seat in this House. I am quite sure that those noble Lords with whom I have the honour of acting will gladly receive that solution of the difficulty into which they have been most unwillingly drawn, and that there will then be but one feeling of congratulation among us at the reception in this House of so distinguished a lawyer as Baron Parke. I have not seen my noble and learned Friend who brought forward the question since he left the House last night; I have no idea what course he intends to pursue with regard to the Committee; but on public grounds I entirely join the Lord Chief Justice in hoping that there may be no occasion to have this question considered by that tribunal to which your Lordships last night decided, and, as I think, properly decided, that it should be referred.
LORD BROUGHAM: It appears to me that in the absence of my noble and learned Friend who brought forward the Motion, it would be premature to give any opinion as to the course he would pursue in reference to the question.
EARL GRANVILLE EARL GRANVILLE moved, that the House do now adjourn.
House adjourned to Monday next.