Lords Sitting of 24 April 1856

ENGLISH AND SCOTCH MARRIAGE LAW.
LORD BROUGHAM,in presenting a petition from magistrates of Cumberland, as parties charged with the suppression of vice and immorality in their county, for an alteration of the law affecting marriages (Scotland), said, he trusted that this petition would command the attention of the House, and especially the attention of his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack, of his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chief Justice, and of his noble and learned Friend behind him (Lord Lyndhurst). It emanated from the magistrates of the county of Cumberland, assembled at quarter sessions, who approached their Lordships with a complaint, in his opinion well-founded, of the evil consequences which resulted from the conflict of the marriage laws of England and Scotland on the borders of the two countries—a state of things which in no part of the civilised world was surpassed in absurdity and inconsistency, and the injurious effects which it produced upon the morals of the people. It called for a decisive remedy. But the evil was not confined to the county of Cumberland; it extended to all the counties on the border, in which almost every restraint on improvident marriages was removed by the contiguity of a country whore a totally different law of marriage existed. In the conterminous counties of England and Scotland, Lord Hardwicke's Act was a mere dead letter, for there, every day, marriages were contracted without the knowledge or consent of parents, guardians, or friends. The petitions alleged that since the beginning of November upwards of 100 of these marriages had been celebrated at Gretna Green. At another place, where there was a register kept, 400 marriages had been celebrated, it turning out that the register was not at a blacksmith's shop, but at a public-house; and it appeared from the statements in the petition that the parties were often under the influences of the other wares sold at this public-house at the time of marriage, ft was not at all proposed to alter the law with respect to England, or to Englishmen domiciled in Scotland; all the petitioners desired was, that an end should be put to that disgraceful conflict of the laws of marriage which enabled a man, by moving
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a few yards, to evade the law of England. Formerly, in 1835, with the concurrence of his noble and learned Friend (Lord Lyndhurst), he had introduced a Bill to remedy this evil. But he felt that it would be impossible to confine the question merely to marriage. Divorce must be made a part of any measure on the subject; for the going to Scotland to obtain a marriage was no more a violation of the law of England than going there to obtain a divorce, and both ought to be put upon the same footing. He thought that residence of at least a fortnight in case of marriage, and residence of a month or six weeks in case of divorce, ought to be required in Scotland. If this plan were adopted, there would be an end put to a system which permitted such absurdities as that a man might be married in Scotland, but not married in England, and his issue might be legitimate on the north side of the Tweed, and illegitimate on the south. A case of the greatest hardship and cruelty had occurred in consequence of this conflict of law. He meant the case of Mr. Laurie, a most respectable merchant of Liverpool, who had obtained a divorce in Scotland which declared that he was a free man, and might marry again, but who married a second time—not in Scotland, but in England—and who was convicted of bigamy, and sentenced to seven years' transportation—a punishment which was commuted to a year's imprisonment at the hulks. The reason for his conviction was, that the law should be made perfectly clear. He mentioned this case as an illustration of the evils which were produced by this conflict of the English and Scotch laws on the subject of marriage and divorce.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, the law in its present state was most disgraceful and mischievous—along the whole border, from the German Ocean to the Western Sea, it was productive of the most immoral effects. The description given by the Cumberland justices was not exaggerated; but he would by no means confine the remedy to that which they suggested. He would have the law of Scotland amended with respect to Scotchmen as well; and he did not despair of seeing such an amendment made for the more certain and proper performance of the most important of all human contracts.
LORD BROUGHAMentirely agreed that Parliament ought to go considerably further than the Cumberland magistrates

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petitioned for, and further even than was proposed by his own Bill of 1835, in which he had confined himself to an attempt at remedying the conflict of the English and Scotch laws.
THE EARL or MINTOsaid, that he rose briefly to express his sense of the importance of this matter, and to bear his testimony that the effects of the present state of the law of Scotland were quite as grievous in Scotland as they were on the border in England.
THE EARL OF ABERDEENsaid, that having been one of those who opposed the Bill of 1835, his opinion was not in the least changed about the matter now. If such a measure were again introduced it should meet with his opposition, and with an effectual opposition, he trusted, in the House of Commons. He admitted that the evil stated by these petitioners did exist; but it might be remedied without altering the law of Scotland with respect to marriage—a law to which the people of that country were devotedly attached, and which was sanctioned by the good effects which had resulted from it.
Petition read, and ordered to lie on the table.

THE FALL OF KARS.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: It may be in the recollection of your Lordships that before we separated for the Easter holidays, when the noble Earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs had gone to Paris, I gave notice of my intention to submit a Motion on the subject of the surrender of Kars. I regret that the inevitable absence of the noble Earl has hitherto prevented me from redeeming that promise, for I feel that the subject is of such importance that it ought to have been submitted to your Lordships' consideration as soon as possible after the event. But I hope that you will not, because of the time that has elapsed, be forgetful of the great interest that attaches to the event to which I allude, as well on its own account as with regard to what has followed. I could have wished that the question had fallen into the hands of some one better qualified than myself to present it to your notice in a lucid and intelligible manner, and to demonstrate its consequences; but since this is not the case, I must beg of your Lordships to make yourselves familiar with the subject, by casting a glance over the book that contains the papers relating to the
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operations in Asia Minor. And I make the request with the less reluctance, because the volume in question contains matter of the most romantic interest, such as is seldom possessed by a book of that colour. Notwithstanding the interval that has elapsed, I do not believe that any of your Lordships will be of opinion that an event so important as the surrender of a great fortress and a gallant army can be passed over in silence by this House. Rejoicing on this, and on many accounts, to see the Foreign Secretary in his place, I beg to lay upon the table a copy of the Resolution I mean to submit for your Lordships' consideration on Friday next—
"That while this House feels it to be a duty to express its admiration of the gallantry of the Turkish garrison, and of the self-relying courage of Major General Sir W. Williams and the British officers at the siege of Kars, it feels it equally a duty to declare its conviction that the surrender of that fortress and of the army which defended it, disasters which endangered the safety of Asiatic Turkey and affected our influence in the negotiations for peace, are in a great degree owing to the want of foresight and energy in Her Majesty's Government."

THE NAVAL REVIEW.
LORD RAVENSWORTHsaid, that, as he saw in their places the noble Lord the President of the Council, and many other noble Lords who had suffered with himself from the inconveniences and delays which had arisen in the conveyance of their Lordships to and from the naval review at Spithead on the previous day, he might perhaps be permitted to call attention to the defects in the arrangements which had led to those unpleasant circumstances, and to ask some explanation from the Government. Nothing could be more perfect in theory than the plan which was originally devised by the Government, by which the yacht which convoyed Her Majesty on her progress through the magnificent line of ships was to be followed by one which was to contain Her Majesty's faithful advisers, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and this was to be succeeded by the vessel on board of which were the Members of the House of Commons—symbolising the monarchial, the hereditary, and the popular estates of the realm, the representatives of which were to float together in the midst of that great display of the naval power of Britain. The theory was perfect; the misfortune was that it entirely failed of realisation. Though he did not wish to attack any noble Lord in that House as being directly responsible for the

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failures of the day, he must say that they were mainly attributable to the want of proper discrimination on the part of the Lords of the Admiralty, in selecting a proper vessel for the conveyance of their Lordships, together with the mismanagement that was so evident on the part of the railway functionaries. The first thing that occurred after starting, at seven o'clock in the morning, was a delay of at least two hours occasioned by the breaking down of two engines. For this he attributed no blame to Her Majesty's Government. After great delay and inconvenience their Lordships arrived at Southampton, where there was but one large tender, the Harbinger, for the conveyance of the Members of both Houses of Parliament. In consequence of this it was at least an hour before they all got on board the tender, and then the crowded state of that vessel occasioned further loss of time in embarking them on the two steamers, Transit and Perseverance. At length, between twelve and one o'clock, and after they had been informed by some noble Lords who had gone down on the previous night that the most imposing part of the display was over, the salute on the arrival of Her Majesty having been fired an hour and a half before, the Transit, which had been appropriated to the conveyance of their Lordships, got under way. She had not, however, proceeded far before she was passed by the Perseverance, having on board the Members of the House of Commons, and the second estate of the realm became the third, in which position it continued during the remainder of the day. In the course of time the Transit, notwithstanding the defective engines with which she was supplied, reached the pivot ships at the easternmost, point of the line, from which position they witnessed that grand and magnificent movement, the advance and wheeling of the line of ships, the only spectacle which they had to repay them for the fatigue which they had undergone. Now, it appeared that this ship, the Transit, had been supplied with engines which were originally made for our late enemy the Emperor of Russia, and which were so defective in construction that on her last voyage to the Mediterranean the whole of her machinery gave way, and it had not since been put into proper condition. The result was that, in a short time, this immense ship, of 2,400 tons burden, became almost like a log upon the water. By
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orders from high authorities no smoke was to be allowed on board; but without smoke there could be no fire, and without fire the steam power could not be increased to make those defective engines do their duty, and the result was, that on the return she hardly made any way. Little as was the way she made, it was, unfortunately, enough for her to run down a gunboat, by which collision both vessels were seriously damaged, and a marine received injuries so severe that he (Lord Ravensworth) did not know whether they might not be fatal. Although she did this, however, she did not make way enough to enable their Lordships to reach the harbour of Southampton until ten o'clock. At that time the return was effected by means of a very active but very small steamer called the Monkey, owing to the disproportion between which and the Transit, and the consequent crowding of the former, there was a great deal of inconvenience and not a little danger. The latter was considerably increased by the fact that, as she neared the pier, the tiller ropes of the Monkey broke, owing to which there was much difficulty and delay in wharfing that vessel. As soon as she was wharfed there was a rush to the railway station. Ladies and gentlemen, noble Lords and right rev. Prelates, all made for the station as fast as possible. First-class carriages were soon all occupied, second-class ones were in requisition, and one right rev. Prelate and a Privy Councillor took refuge in a third-class carriage. At last the train reached London, and their Lordships were deposited at the railway station at three o'clock in the morning. Thus the termination of this day of pleasure was, that noble Lords and ladies were running about the platform seeking in vain for a carriage or a cab to take them home. How many of the ladies reached their residences he could not say. Fortunately he had himself none under his own care. The blame of all these delays and inconveniences rested, in his opinion, with those by whose management an improper vessel of enormous size and without sufficient means of propulsion was appropriated to their Lordships. To this fact he attributed all the misadventures of the day, and he thought he had a right to ask from the Government some explanation of the reasons which led to the appropriation of so large and so improper a vessel for this service.

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Further than this he would at present express no opinion upon the subject except to say, "Sic transit gloria mundi."
EARL GRANVILLE: I am afraid I am not the best person in the world to answer the very serious charges which have been brought forward by my noble Friend, having myself been one of his fellow-sufferers, and having experienced some disappointment at missing a considerable portion of the magnificent spectacle of yesterday. At the same time I am bound to say, that I think my noble Friend has exaggerated the blame which can be attached to the Government. He certainly made a very fair exception at the beginning of his speech, when he exonerated the Government from all blame for the engines of the South-Western Railway Company having broken down; but I think ho has been misinformed as to the character of the ship which was appropriated to the conveyance of your Lordships. It is a very largo and a very fine ship, and I am sure that all the noble Lords who were on board it will bear testimony to the great care which had been taken to provide for the comforts of your Lordships both as to accommodation and refreshments. No doubt it would have been very much better had there been two small tenders to take your Lordships on board, instead of the one large one. When we did stop it was not from any defect in the engine, but because the fires were let out, by which the steam power was lost. As no Lord of the Admiralty has yet returned to town, I have not been able to make any inquiries as to who was really to blame; but, whatever mismanagement there may have been, it is clear that the general Government cannot be made responsible unless it should neglect, after inquiry, to punish the persons who are to blame. Several noble Lords on board were kind enough to try to fix the whole responsibility of the affair on me, which, as your Lordships may imagine, did not at all increase my enjoyment of the day. I was particularly desired by some to go down and poke the fire, but, with an unusual degree of modesty, I declined to undertake the command of even a small fraction of the Channel fleet. There is one consolation, however, to be derived from the misadventure—that the day furnished another proof of the enormous mental and bodily strength of my noble Friend the Lord Chief Justice, because, though my noble Friend was
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away from his house for twenty-four hours, he was able to attend in his place in the Court of Queen's Bench this morning, and he has to-night taken part in a discussion relative to the Scotch marriage law. I can only say that I will take care, when the First Lord of the Admiralty returns to town, that all proper inquiries shall be made on the subject, and that if there has been any negligence the persons to blame shall be punished.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: I should not advise my noble Friend behind me to move a vote of censure on Her Majesty's Government this time, though it certainly was a practical joke of the most unpardonable character to have been promised so much pleasure, and to have been kept twenty-two hours in attempting to attain an object which we really only reached half-way at last. What I rose to observe upon was, the extreme confidence—not the modesty—of the noble Earl opposite, in answering my noble Friend behind, giving your Lordships to believe that he was present the whole time, that he saw all our misfortunes, and participated in them. From his high position, he was of course looked upon by all on board as the captain of the vessel—meaning, that is, that he would stick by her so long as her timbers held together. Far from that, my noble Friend, with his usual sagacity and acuteness, about half-past three, seeing how matters went, and how unlikely it was that he should see his home that night if he stayed with us, deserted the ship, and, having found very comfortable quarters on the coast of the Isle of Wight, to our great consternation hailed a small boat and left us to our fate. That fate has not been at all exaggerated by the noble Lord behind me; for the rest of the day we were passed by ship after ship, by carriage after carriage, and most of us had to walk home from the Waterloo Station at half-past three this morning.
LORD CAMPBELL: I can testify to the great courtesy of the noble Earl the President of the Council, so long indeed as he remained with us, but he certainly did desert us in a moment of difficulty and in the midst of evils which he must have seen as much as your Lordships. As I found it impossible to assist in the administration of justice in Westminster Hall on this great holiday, I thought it was my duty to show my respect to Her Majesty, and to join those who were to follow in

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Her wake when making tins great progress through her naval forces. I certainly met, in common with all of your Lordships who were there, with great disappointments. I acquit Her Majesty's Government of all blame for our late arrival at Southampton, and, although neither my noble Friend nor the First Lord of the Admiralty, nor the Government generally, can be held responsible for what followed—for the plan traced out for us was excellent in itself—yet there certainly was such gross mismanagement somewhere as to give one a clear idea of what happened at Balaklava. Nothing happened except the breaking down of the railway engines, which could not have been avoided. There was gross mismanagement in having so small a tender to act with such an enormous steamer as the Transit. It might have been easily seen that, under the most favourable circumstances, it would have taken an hour or more to transfer the passengers from one vessel to the other; and had there been anything of a swell, we never could have all got from one vessel to the other. Fortunately, we had fair weather—for which, however, we have not to thank the Government. The Transit at last weighed anchor, but it was necessary for two learned Judges of the Superior Courts of Westminster, my learned Brethren, who were on board, to work at the capstan. We had three right rev. Prelates on board, but I do not know whether they lent a hand or not. One of the Apostles, I believe, was acquainted with navigation, and I have no doubt under similar circumstances he would have assisted in the operation. We really had great reason to complain of this Transit, which, though a very large vessel, was quite unfit for the service. She had two engines, but one of them was permanently disabled, and the other was soon made useless by the fires being let out. It was eleven o'clock before we left Southampton, although we ought to have left at six o'clock, and such a scene of confusion I hope I shall never witness again. It certainly reflects very little credit upon those who ought to have made better provision. Judges, Prelates, and ladies of high rank were scrambling together for places in the train—one would lave thought it was a Manchester excursion train. I had the good fortune to get a place, but I was not able to get home before four o'clock this morning. Thanks
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to that strength to which my noble Friend has alluded, I was able to attend in my place in the Queen's Bench this morning, and I am happy to say, therefore, that no ill consequences ensued to the administration of justice.
THE EARL OF CARDIGANinquired whether, under the circumstances which had occurred with reference to the steamer which had been granted for the use of the House of Lords, there was not some subordinate of the Admiralty who was responsible for putting the vessel in a proper and fitting state to receive those to whom she was allotted? And ho would also ask, if it was right to have placed at their Lordships' disposal a vessel which in the mid-channel between Cowes and Portsmouth, where the water was almost as smooth as a mill-pond, could only make three and a half knots an hour? It was said that this vessel, the Transit, was about to be sent out to the Crimea to bring back troops. If her performances were always of the character of those of yesterday, it ought to be matter of serious consideration before she was sent out to bring back any part or the army. This was the more important, as there had been great neglect in fitting out the vessels for the conveyance of troops.
The subject then dropped.

AUSTRIAN OCCUPATION OF PARMA.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE rose to move for copies of the reports and correspondence of Her Majesty's Diplomatic and Consular Agents in Italy relating to the occupation of the territory and the assumption of the executive Government of the Duchy of Parma by Austrian authorities; and for copies of any communications thereupon between Her Majesty's Government and the Cabinet of Vienna. In asking for these papers, it was not his intention to express any opinion with regard to the affairs of Italy, and still less to ask their Lordships to come to any judgment on that question; for though he thought that the judgment of the British Parliament would not be improperly asked on such a question, yet it might be premature to ask such an opinion, while the House was uninformed on the subject. All that he asked now was information from the Government, and he hoped that it would be in the power of the Government to give some information with regard to facts and events which had occurred, and which he believed

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to be of so grave a character that it would be necessary that they should be considered not only by the servants of the Crown, but by the Parliament of this country. The House was aware that the state of northern Italy, and especially of the Duchy of Parma, had been for some time of so evil a character, that it showed the existence of very deep-rooted discontent and disaffection among the people of that country; and, more than that, there had arisen among them such a contempt of all law and authority as was likely to lead to lamentable consequences, and might lead to very grievous results. It was on these pretences, and in some degree it might be said for these reasons, that the troops of Austria had occupied the territory of Parma. There were, however, reports and rumours that Austria intended not only the occupation of the territories or duchy, but that she contemplated the seizure of the reins of government. If the Austrian Government had sent a force merely to save and protect the family of the reigning Sovereign from the personal dangers which might surround them, such a step would not be inconsistent with precedents, and was one which had been adopted by this country itself. But if the accounts that were current were true, Austria had taken political as well as military possession of Parma—had dismissed the Ministers of Finance and Police; the Post Office department was placed under Austrian authority, and, moreover, the Austrian troops extended over the whole territory, from Pontremoli to Piacenza. It was not, therefore, the protection of the reigning family that was intended, but the occupation of the whole country, and the assumption of the government. He did not ask the House to discuss the question of the character of such an occupation or the consequences to which it might lead, or whether the balance of power in Europe had or had not been disturbed by such an act on the part of one of the great Powers; nor did he propose to enter into the question of the state of Italy, north or south; but all he wanted was information as to what had really taken place, and what was the attitude taken by the Government of this country, and those of the other European Powers, on this point. The noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Lyndhurst) had that evening given notice of a Motion which would bring on the discussion of this subject, and not only would he call on the House to discuss the subject,
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but he proposed to call on them to pronounce a strong judgment on the question. That circumstance strengthened him (the Marquess of Clanricarde) in the opinion he had formed of the necessity for the House having early information on the subject; for it would be contrary to usage as well as to convenience for the House to be called on to give an opinion on a matter on which they were imperfectly informed. It ought to be known if it was true that the Austrian troops occupied the country only in order to repress any casual insurrection that might occur, for of such insurrection there was no account, and the Austrian forces were disposed in a mode which looked very much as if further aggression was intended against Parma. If danger were apprehended to the reigning family, the Piedmontese troops might have been called on to interfere rather than those of Austria. But the position of the Austrian army forbade the supposition that the purpose intended was merely to put an end to insurrection, or rebellion, or any disturbances which might threaten the safety of the reigning family. He thought it better to make no further remarks at present, but he thought he had said enough to justify his asking for information from the Government. If his noble Friend (the Earl of Clarendon) refused to give that information now, perhaps he would be able to give an assurance that he would, at an early day, take into consideration the propriety of giving to the House such information on this subject as they ought to possess; for it would be a very lamentable thing that this country, having just ended a war by a peace which they thought would be satisfactory, should enter upon another much more sanguinary and costly.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: I am sure my noble Friend will not expect me to enter into any general explanation on the subject which he has brought before your Lordships, because the noble and learned Lord opposite has given notice of a Motion which I understand is of such a comprehensive nature as will bring the whole subject under consideration, and I hope shortly to be able to show the House that the question of Italy has not been disregarded by Her Majesty's Government. I am at present unable to lay before your Lordships any correspondence calculated to throw light on the events which have taken place in Italy; but I am prepared, in answer to my noble Friend, to give him such information

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as we possess. It appears that ever since the assassination of the late Duke, Parma has been in a most unsettled state. For this I do not believe that the Duchess Regent is to blame. Her Government has been wise and moderate, and I believe she has displayed great forbearance and good sense. But the Government is weak in Parma, which has been the resort of persons desirous of promoting political troubles; and it is said that the agents of secret societies have been particularly active there. This unsettled state of affairs continued to prevail, and the persons who conducted the investigation into the assassination of the late Duke and others employed in the judicial investigation of political offences in the duchy, appeared destined to the same fate. Two political murders having been committed, and a dangerous spirit having been manifested, and considerable public alarm having been the consequence of these acts, the Duchess Regent declared Parma in a state of siege, and the Austrian general, Crenneville, as senior officer there, took the supreme command of all the troops. But, as I gather from my noble Friend, he appears to think that Austrian interference took place in pursuance of a convention entered into in consequence of recent events. Such has not been the case. A treaty was agreed to between Austria and the late Duke of Parma and Modena, in the year 1847 or 1848, by which these Sovereigns were entitled to call upon Austria, and Austria was bound to send a sufficient force to maintain order, if public tranquility were likely to be disturbed. This was done in 1849, and there has been since that time an Austrian battalion in Parma or the neighbourhood. When the state of siege was declared, General Crenneville wrote to Vienna to say that he should not require to have another man sent to him. There was, therefore, no special intervention, and no increased number of forces beyond that which Austria had already in the duchy. I am not able to give my noble Friend any account of the other events to which he alluded—of certain official persons being turned out of office; but I believe I am correct in saying that which I am assured of from Vienna, that there has been great exaggeration in the newspapers as to the account of Austrian force in the territory bordering upon Sardinia—that no fresh troops have been sent into the duchy, and no change made in their position.
House adjourned till To-morrow.